I also didn’t understand his phrase. Waiting on an answer from him.
In my mind, what he said translated to: Gods power (grace) requires works because works lead to fruit?
Grace requires works to bear fruit!
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In my mind, what he said translated to: Gods power (grace) requires works because works lead to fruit?
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Worst case, an idea for a username... stunnedbysacraments (Yikes, that's REAL wine!) - LOL
Actually happened to me in Europe.
This went over my head…oh, the one person said he meant sacraments for works. Lol. Okay.
I don’t know what that poster meant either. Did they mean the ceremonial sacraments of the church? I guess they had to because God has performed the sacraments in me - I couldn’t circumcise my own heart or baptize myself with the Spirit…so they couldn’t be ”good works prepared for us to do” if we can’t DO them…!
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I believe, in the Catholic view, the Sacraments are the means to Grace. I will gladly stand corrected if I got that wrong.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Thanks.
Perhaps a means OF Grace? The Eucharist as spiritual food, for instance.
Still...
The Sacraments (Grace) require works to bear fruit? ???
mailmandan
Well-Known Member
Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Oops. Better add a return there. Second half is not scripture. Thanks. (return to sender) - LOL
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. - Romans 11:6
But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
Again this is all about eternal salvation vs daily service.
Eternal salvation has zero nada zip to do with good works. It can't because there is nothing redemptive about a lost person trying to get to heaven by their good behaviour. A lost person remains lost in their attempts to earn Eternal life. It's impossible to do. It had to be a gift by Jesus, unmerited and unfavoured and unearned.
It's putting perfume on a corpse to think good works will get you to heaven.
So.. what about someone already converted? Well they also have no redemptive value as in entrance to heaven by their good works.
Entrance is given as a gift not by works..can't be earned.
What good works do though is show Jesus to the rest of the world and build rewards in heaven.
Gold and silver tried in the fire that remains purified as a sweet aroma back to Jesus... the freedom giver.
'Faith' in faith without works is dead . .from James 2.. is the faith a believer practices in after conversion.
Eternal salvation has zero nada zip to do with good works. It can't because there is nothing redemptive about a lost person trying to get to heaven by their good behaviour. A lost person remains lost in their attempts to earn Eternal life. It's impossible to do. It had to be a gift by Jesus, unmerited and unfavoured and unearned.
It's putting perfume on a corpse to think good works will get you to heaven.
So.. what about someone already converted? Well they also have no redemptive value as in entrance to heaven by their good works.
Entrance is given as a gift not by works..can't be earned.
What good works do though is show Jesus to the rest of the world and build rewards in heaven.
Gold and silver tried in the fire that remains purified as a sweet aroma back to Jesus... the freedom giver.
'Faith' in faith without works is dead . .from James 2.. is the faith a believer practices in after conversion.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
What do you make of this?
Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
--- AND THIS ---
Matthew 25:34-36 NIV
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
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St Steven, why do you spell out the numbers in your signature line?
I’ve never seen anyone do that. :)
I’ve never seen anyone do that. :)
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
As those of a Protestant evangelical background (assuming), we tend to view Grace as a singular thing relating to the salvation of our souls.
However, grace is broader than that. We experience grace, and graces, daily, weekly, or whenever. Smaller graces. As I understand it.
They Wouldn’t be trying to get to heaven . They would be just following the law written on their hearts. Instinctively.
I can see you obviously aren’t going to agree but…that was the point.
A lost person can still call out for salvation..believe on Jesus Christ..under conviction from the Holy Spirit. I'm no calvinist. I don't believe in salvation before belief in Jesus.
But scripture is plain a lost person can't attain a place in heaven.
Yes. It’s sort of like the bad doctrines teach us we already have the prize from the box of Cracker Jacks and there would be no point to further digging. But it’s deception. Yes, okay, if you receive the down payment of the Spirit you will live forever. But that’s not the whole gospel and in a great house there are BOTH vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
I had a career in Graphic Design. (designer, art director, creative director)
I like to play with typography. (fonts) Glad you noticed and enjoyed (?) it.
See more at: behance.com/s_lundgren
Why two colons though. I vaguely remember seeing that in a portion of some archaic text and researching…it meant something about…further information or side notes I think?
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
What does verse sixteen say? Anything about belief in Jesus?
Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
I don't think that will hold up under review. IMHO
Seems to have more to do with man-made doctrine than the Bible. I know, I know...
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
No literary meaning, only visual. Kind of creates a square?
If there was a letterspacing tool to use here, I could have kerned a bit of space out between. - LOL
Stephen, you’ve surprised me that you’ve seen this. It’s almost nonexistent to run across anyone who has.
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