Sanctification is not a Process

[Episkopos]

A lot of people have a fractured understanding...either that doesn't form a clear picture or else a wrong picture. The latter are the more stubborn in the defense of an untruth.

When one realizes that those who oppose me...do so...if they are honestly watching their own reactions...because they hate the idea of having to go to God. It's as if they want, more than anything, to NOT have to meet Him.

Logically, no one should say anything against me saying to seek God's face. But many faces are hard against me for suggesting it.

Once a person realizes why they hate what I'm saying...so much...they will turn on themselves, realizing that the flesh is against the Spirit and unwittingly have been championing the flesh over the Spirit. That's how strong and insidious the outer man is...especially when he has a religious ideology that seems to back him up.

I have seen this time and again. Once people give up on the flesh and its excuses to NOT have to go to God for the full measure of grace...the LIGHTS GO ON...and a new layer of maturity begins to settle in. Iniquity is forsaken when we stop putting confidence in the wrong thing...in this case...the outer man.

Many will notice how I often say the same things over and over again. Many will also notice how little of what I say is understood. When people try to represent what I'm saying it comes out all distorted because the outer man has filtered out the precious truth.

I'm not speaking to the outer man...I'm reaching into the inner man of faith.

When God sent Jeremiah out to be a prophet to the nations He told him to...tear down, break up...before building and planting. The actual verse has twice as much tearing down as building up.

And that is because the outer man builds defenses against the truth that need to be shown to be false and rebellious to God.

So how many here HATE...just HATE..when I exhort people to go to God to seek His face...where there is power to walk as Jesus walked?

Why such resistance to something so wonderful?

 

[Laurina]

A lot of people have a fractured understanding...either that doesn't form a clear picture or else a wrong picture. The latter are the more stubborn in the defense of an untruth.

When one realizes that those who oppose me...do so...if they are honestly watching their own reactions...because they hate the idea of having to go to God. It's as if they want, more than anything, to NOT have to meet Him.

Logically, no one should say anything against me saying to seek God's face. But many faces are hard against me for suggesting it.

Once a person realizes why they hate what I'm saying...so much...they will turn on themselves, realizing that the flesh is against the Spirit and unwittingly have been championing the flesh over the Spirit. That's how strong and insidious the outer man is...especially when he has a religious ideology that seems to back him up.

I have seen this time and again. Once people give up on the flesh and its excuses to NOT have to go to God for the full measure of grace...the LIGHTS GO ON...and a new layer of maturity begins to settle in. Iniquity is forsaken when we stop putting confidence in the wrong thing...in this case...the outer man.

Many will notice how I often say the same things over and over again. Many will also notice how little of what I say is understood. When people try to represent what I'm saying it comes out all distorted because the outer man has filtered out the precious truth.

I'm not speaking to the outer man...I'm reaching into the inner man of faith.

When God sent Jeremiah out to be a prophet to the nations He told him to...tear down, break up...before building and planting. The actual verse has twice as much tearing down as building up.

And that is because the outer man builds defenses against the truth that need to be shown to be false and rebellious to God.

So how many here HATE...just HATE..when I exhort people to go to God to seek His face...where there is power to walk as Jesus walked?

Why such resistance to something so wonderful?

Amen!!

 

[Johann]

Are we taught that we should never turn the cheek then, but always poke back...? And when we only have empathy for those we like and not for those we don't agree with, is that ok?

Well, it's sometimes hard to gauge or discern someone else's experience....we only have their word or understanding of what they experienced...though I'm trying.

I like your middle paragraph there, but I'm too tired and distracted right now to try and parse the rest...except that as someone mentioned holiness produces righteousness.

Stay strong in Christ Jesus
J.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

op: sanctification is NOT a process?

One-Time OPERATION Of our LORD God, "Setting us Apart For Himself,"
(Grace Deliverance From The Penalty of sin, "So Great A [ Second ] Death!"):

1Co_1:30 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, Who of God is made unto us wisdom, and
righteousness, and Sanctification, and redemption:

2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of
The LORD, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through
Sanctification of The Spirit and belief of The Truth:

Rom_15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the
gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being Sanctified
By The Holy Ghost.

1Co_1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are Sanctified in Christ
Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon The Name of Jesus Christ our
LORD, both theirs and ours:

1Co_6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are Sanctified, but
ye are justified in The Name of The LORD Jesus, and By The Spirit of our God.

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

our "work out your own salvation" daily, humble process, "setting ourselves apart from the
world" To Him, our LORD And Saviour, Jesus Christ ( Grace Deliverance from the power of
sin, in our life-long process of 'sanctification'! ):

1Th_4:3 For this is The Will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from
fornication:

1Th_4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and
honour;

2Ti_2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour,
sanctified, and meet for The Master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Amen. More Three Tense Deliverance Doctrine here:

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

 

[Johann]

op: sanctification is NOT a process?

One-Time OPERATION Of our LORD God, "Setting us Apart For Himself,"
(Grace Deliverance From The Penalty of sin, "So Great A [ Second ] Death!"):

1Co_1:30 But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, Who of God is made unto us wisdom, and
righteousness, and Sanctification, and redemption:

2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of
The LORD, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through
Sanctification of The Spirit and belief of The Truth:

Rom_15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the
gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being Sanctified
By The Holy Ghost.

1Co_1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are Sanctified in Christ
Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon The Name of Jesus Christ our
LORD, both theirs and ours:

1Co_6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are Sanctified, but
ye are justified in The Name of The LORD Jesus, and By The Spirit of our God.

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

our "work out your own salvation" daily, humble process, "setting ourselves apart from the
world" To Him, our LORD And Saviour, Jesus Christ ( Grace Deliverance from the power of
sin, in our life-long process of 'sanctification'! ):

1Th_4:3 For this is The Will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from
fornication:

1Th_4:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and
honour;

2Ti_2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour,
sanctified, and meet for The Master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Amen. More Three Tense Deliverance Doctrine here:

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

Amen!
J.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Are we taught that we should never turn the cheek then, but always poke back...? And when we only have empathy for those we like and not for those we don't agree with, is that ok?

Well, it's sometimes hard to gauge or discern someone else's experience....we only have their word or understanding of what they experienced...though I'm trying.

I like your middle paragraph there, but I'm too tired and distracted right now to try and parse the rest...except that as someone mentioned holiness produces righteousness.

We are seeing “do violence vs. poke back at” very differently from each other.
We are also seeing “have empathy for” very different from each other.
We just see things exactly the opposite. What I see as loving someone you see as the opposite.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Isaiah 64:5-8 KJV
5) Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
6) But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7) And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
8) But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

This passage?

I'm not seeing the comparison you are referring to.

Philippians 3:6-9 KJV
6) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7) But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8) Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Much love!

I know you aren’t seeing it. I guess it’s because you see “righteous by faith” in that second verse as different from the Righteousness of the men whose faith shut the mouths of lions. God called those men justified. Because of their trust. They are in the NT hall of fame. And if you’ve never “shut the mouths of lions” I think it’s a very bad move to call men who did to be filthy rags because your righteousness hasn’t even exceeded theirs. It’s a harmful judgement. Harmful to you I mean.

This will be seen as a lack of empathy and not turning the other cheek. I see it as love and I see it as how I would wish to be treated if I were doing something harmful to myself.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

hmmm, should I have only said hmmm then?

ok, I'll be direct.......I was just making a point that people don't seem to be as spiritual as is sometimes being implied...not seeing the fruits. That's not meant to be a poke, just an observation.

Yeah, I’m very aware of the seeing things opposite thing between me and you. Black/white, up/down.

 

[marks]

I think it’s a very bad move to call men who did to be filthy rags

I know you are not seeing what I'm saying in my posts, and it doesn't seem that you understand a good many of these Scriptures. And I know I'm not calling men filthy rags, those are your words.

We can discuss the covenants if you were to want to, but I doubt you do, and I don't know what would be gained. Romans 6 is an excellent passage to affirm in one's faith. I don't recall any of my posts inviting discussion of those verses every responded to, other than short statements essentially saying that they don't really mean what they say.

Something to be understood is the difference between the best thing a fleshy not reborn man can do, and what God considers to be true righteousness. His righteousness. All fall short, and that's just the way it is.

And once God accepted a righteousness of man, and in particular with the covering of sin, until Christ came. Now He commands everyone everywhere to repent, and confess the Lord Jesus, believing in Him. To be baptized into Him. Back to Romans 6.

God - not me - God called their righteousnesses as filthy rags, so you'll need to go to Him if you don't like that statement.
And speaking of harmful judgments, that's something you might consider regarding yourself.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

A lot of people have a fractured understanding...either that doesn't form a clear picture or else a wrong picture. The latter are the more stubborn in the defense of an untruth.

When one realizes that those who oppose me...do so...if they are honestly watching their own reactions...because they hate the idea of having to go to God. It's as if they want, more than anything, to NOT have to meet Him.

Logically, no one should say anything against me saying to seek God's face. But many faces are hard against me for suggesting it.

Once a person realizes why they hate what I'm saying...so much...they will turn on themselves, realizing that the flesh is against the Spirit and unwittingly have been championing the flesh over the Spirit. That's how strong and insidious the outer man is...especially when he has a religious ideology that seems to back him up.

I have seen this time and again. Once people give up on the flesh and its excuses to NOT have to go to God for the full measure of grace...the LIGHTS GO ON...and a new layer of maturity begins to settle in. Iniquity is forsaken when we stop putting confidence in the wrong thing...in this case...the outer man.

Many will notice how I often say the same things over and over again. Many will also notice how little of what I say is understood. When people try to represent what I'm saying it comes out all distorted because the outer man has filtered out the precious truth.

I'm not speaking to the outer man...I'm reaching into the inner man of faith.

When God sent Jeremiah out to be a prophet to the nations He told him to...tear down, break up...before building and planting. The actual verse has twice as much tearing down as building up.

And that is because the outer man builds defenses against the truth that need to be shown to be false and rebellious to God.

So how many here HATE...just HATE..when I exhort people to go to God to seek His face...where there is power to walk as Jesus walked?

Why such resistance to something so wonderful?

I get rebuke and the need for tearing down at times, I do......but I don't get false accusations and unfortunately there has been some of that being flung around.

 

[amigo de christo]

Stay strong in Christ Jesus
J.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And I know I'm not calling men filthy rags, those are your words.

Yes. Technically, you are calling the things they did through trusting God, (like closing mouths of lions), to be the filthy rags. Which actually makes it worse, since those things were the working of Gods’ Spirit. It isn’t by a man’s own strength, ability or power that he closes the mouths of lions, just as it wasn’t Paul’s ability or strength that knocked dead Annais.

You either have to call the work of the Spirit of God in closing the mouths of lions to be filthy rags or you have to call the trust of the men that led to that filthy rags. But either way, you bring great harm and judgement on yourself.
Once again, the filthy rags verse is by comparison TO HOLINESS.

 

[Lizbeth]

I know you aren’t seeing it. I guess it’s because you see “righteous by faith” in that second verse as different from the Righteousness of the men whose faith shut the mouths of lions. God called those men justified. Because of their trust. They are in the NT hall of fame. And if you’ve never “shut the mouths of lions” I think it’s a very bad move to call men who did to be filthy rags because your righteousness hasn’t even exceeded theirs. It’s a harmful judgement. Harmful to you I mean.

This will be seen as a lack of empathy and not turning the other cheek. I see it as love and I see it as how I would wish to be treated if I were doing something harmful to myself.

No indeed.....simple expressing of opinion or disagreement is not the same as personal attack or poking.

Obviously, not everyone has yet been called to shut the mouths of lions.

But Daniel's righteousness, like all OT saints commended for their faith, was a righteousness of faith, like what we have received...which is not filthy rags. That was the whole point of them being made mention of in the NT....pointing out that their works of righteousness were by faith. Salvation has always been available by faith.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Obviously, not everyone has yet been called to shut the mouths of lions.

I believe everyone is called to but few are chosen. Paul encouraged us to run to win. Win what?
I struggled many, many years with the thought of some dead saints I would read that God just calls some to more love while on earth. I cannot truck with it. I simply don’t believe it.

But curtain torn in two, being given access into the holy of holies, does not mean instantly There.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No indeed.....simple expressing of opinion or disagreement is not the same as personal attack or poking.

Obviously, not everyone has yet been called to shut the mouths of lions.

But Daniel's righteousness, like all OT saints commended for their faith, was a righteousness of faith, like what we have received...which is not filthy rags. That was the whole point of them being made mention of in the NT....pointing out that their works of righteousness were by faith. Salvation has always been available by faith.

What are the filthy rags then. Explain it to others.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

God - not me - God called their righteousnesses as filthy rags

No, actually, that’s incorrect. God did not say, “all of your righteousness is like filthy rags.” The prophet said, ” all of OUR…”

 

[APAK]

Protestants need progressive sanctification the same way Catholics need purgatory....and for the same reason.

Epi: Why do you keep on with this insane comparison of the non-Catholic sanctification process of maturing and transforming our holy walk in life and the Catholic purgatory system after death. Let me enlighten you a bit if you did not know the real difference.

The two doctrines are miles apart in purpose and understanding. One side believes Christ atoned for all sins and those who are justified by faith are covered from sin by the blood of Christ and God only 'sees' perfection in a believer and not sin. Of course if we are convicted in and by the Spirit of God of genuine sin, we genuinely repent and move on and not backwards. We acknowledge and we learn to gain use our power to control it...These believers are covered in righteousness and being set apart at the calling and purpose of God. We have no say into the degree of sanctification given to us in our lives no matter how hard we cry our for more or all the 'rest' of the holiness we can possibly get, as if we really know what this crying and the rest of it all means anyway....God is in control, not us.

Whilst the Catholics truly do not completely believe that Christ's work completely brought atonement for a believer's sins and therefore to ensure they cover all bases they add self-works. For starters they introduced the concept of priestly confession and penance on a cyclical basis, and after death being in purgatory to have a chance to confess any venial (minor) and especially mortal (heavy duty) sins over again with much more penance before being allowed to conform and be perfected (complete sanctification) in Christ.

Now where both doctrines do intersect is that perfection in sanctification occurs when our spirit is permanently separated out of this fleshly body into an immortal state of living. Our holiness in this new body is the same as in all saints.....we get all the rest of it and then we will truly know what that means. Not in this life of flesh.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Epi: Why do you keep on with this insane comparison of the non-Catholic sanctification process of maturing and transforming our holy walk in life and the Catholic purgatory system after death. Let me enlighten you a bit if you did not know the real difference.

The two doctrines are miles apart in purpose and understanding. One side believes Christ atoned for all sins and those who are justified by faith are covered from sin by the blood of Christ and God only 'sees' perfection in a believer and not sin. Of course if we are convicted in and by the Spirit of God of genuine sin, we genuinely repent and move on and not backwards. We acknowledge and we learn to gain use our power to control it...These believers are covered in righteousness and being set apart at the calling and purpose of God. We have no say into the degree of sanctification given to us in our lives no matter how hard we cry our for more or all the 'rest' of the holiness we can possibly get, as if we really know what this crying and the rest of it all means anyway....God is in control, not us.

Whilst the Catholics truly do not completely believe that Christ's work completely brought atonement for a believer's sins and therefore to ensure they cover all bases they add self-works. For starters they introduced the concept of priestly confession and penance on a cyclical basis, and after death being in purgatory to have a chance to confess any venial (minor) and especially mortal (heavy duty) sins over again with much more penance before being allowed to conform and be perfected (complete sanctification) in Christ.

Now where both doctrines do intersect is that perfection in sanctification occurs when our spirit is permanently separated out of this fleshly body into an immortal state of living. Our holiness in this new body is the same as in all saints.....we get all the rest of it and then we will truly know what that means. Not in this life of flesh.

I believe you didn’t grasp why Epi compared them. It’s because in order to get men to accept that they cannot enter the kingdom of God NOW and walk IN the Spirit, you have to offer it to them LATER.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I know you aren’t seeing it. I guess it’s because you see “righteous by faith” in that second verse as different from the Righteousness of the men whose faith shut the mouths of lions. God called those men justified. Because of their trust. They are in the NT hall of fame. And if you’ve never “shut the mouths of lions” I think it’s a very bad move to call men who did to be filthy rags because your righteousness hasn’t even exceeded theirs. It’s a harmful judgement. Harmful to you I mean.

This will be seen as a lack of empathy and not turning the other cheek. I see it as love and I see it as how I would wish to be treated if I were doing something harmful to myself.

Do you see, the men trusted God and God says a man has done right/done the right thing/done righteously, to trust Him. The man is justified/said by God to have done right to trust Him. The resulting work that shows/proves the man trusted God (shutting the mouth of lions) is not a work done by the man. It is a work done through the man. No man can shut the mouth of lions by his own ability or power.
Having the trust in God to move mountains is not by the man’s power.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No indeed.....simple expressing of opinion or disagreement is not the same as personal attack or poking.

Obviously, not everyone has yet been called to shut the mouths of lions.

But Daniel's righteousness, like all OT saints commended for their faith, was a righteousness of faith, like what we have received...which is not filthy rags. That was the whole point of them being made mention of in the NT....pointing out that their works of righteousness were by faith. Salvation has always been available by faith.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

They think if we disagree with them, we appose them, We attack them. We are taking shots at them.

Thats why you can’t find peace even in disagreement in many chatroom. It’s not discussion. It is that person disagrees with me. Well He disagrees with God and the Bible. Because I AM RIGHT and HE is wrong. How dare he attack me like that!!! I will take my revenge!!

That leads to personal attack, Bearing false witness against the one who they feel are attacking them, And discussion goes out the door. Because instead of being in learning mode. And testing mode. You’re in defense mode.