Sanctification is not a Process
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Johann
Well-Known Member
I'm tired of spending my time online,......
There are better things to do in life than reading what is going on here--I have no problem in ignoring most of you
That post of mine was not a vicious attack Mr. Snowflake. It's called "adult discussion."
LOL. Well, I'm pretty sure the cornerstone of the foundation (which is IN His temple as a part of it) is also the capstone or topstone, that we are growing up into. ( I believe that's why it can be interpreted either way in Zechariah, if I'm remembering correctly.) But putting that aside for now, the Lord permitting......I likewise agree with your second paragraph but not the first.
BTW The Old Man is not what we are to confront after conversion...we are no longer as we were...although we can actually get worse by becoming religious and being an affront to God. It is the carnal OUTER (or outward) man...that needs to be crucified to liberate the inner man to be joined with God in Christ. With a greater understanding must come a greater humility. Otherwise the outer man will rise up with religious wings as egos.
The foundation is Christ...not Christ in YOU (emphasis on the you). It is wrong to champion Him abiding in you over going to God in order to abide in Christ. It is just another way to avoid seeking the face of God. It's too easy to fool people that the initial grace received at regeneration is all there is. It is too easy to be puffed up in the outer man. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. Knowledge puffs up (the outer man), but love edifies (the inner man).
God has engineered the spiritual progression so that those who neglect going to Him (like the 9 lepers out of 10 who were healed by the Lord) ...will go in endless circles in the wilderness walk....and continue that way into eternity, as many who profess to have faith will wander aimlessly in the eternal wilderness of darkness.
Jude 11: Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withers, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
In the wise that would strike fear...not so the foolish.
I still can't tell the difference between what you are calling the outer man and what the bible calls the old man. Have to put that aside too for now, it might just be my brain. Agree we develop and rely on a "false persona" to survive in this nasty world, and/or even just out of rebellion, like Eve. We all follow the same pattern as Adam and Eve. The heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it. We need the Lord to deliver us from that bondage and reliance on that false persona/outer man as our source, and rely on Him instead.....as I believe that is what you are talking about...?
Yes, we need to come to Christ in the sense you are speaking about. He said to "come unto me, all who are weary and take my yoke upon you, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light." I would call that surrendering to Him, to His yoke.
We certainly do need to fear the Lord, but at the same time He is not a harsh taskmaster. That is another paradox. But I believe we need both the fear of the Lord as well as to know His love. And He feeds us individually what we need at any given time or circumstance. Sometimes we need the fear of the Lord, other times we need His love, they both have power and are mighty in God in different ways, as long we don't abuse or over-emphasize either one. There is always the danger on our part of mishandling the things of God.....nobody ever promised that our pursuit of the Lord wouldn't be risky in a way. Look at Esther. I mean she both feared the King and so took pains to prepare herself to be in His presence, but at the same time i think she was counting on His love or else she wouldn't have gone to Him. Anyhow, I don't want to digress.....maybe we can just pick up from the second paragraph of this post, God willing, sorry. lol.
I think the ones who are being triggered should use the ignore until they can stop being triggered.
Much love!
There is a lot that doesn't build up, and we are much better off passing over that.
Much love!
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
These must be a fictitious group:
“…He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep His commandments, to a thousand generations.” (Deuteronomy 7:9)
I think Paul contrasts the Old Man (capitalized) with the New Man. The Old Man knows nothing of life in Christ. Our Old Man was crucified...done away with at regeneration. We are now the people of God who are regenerated by the Spirit. The New Man is the subsequent putting on Christ who knew no sin. That is the higher walk in the Spirit. Very very few will come to the throne of grace to get the full measure of grace from the Lord.
As I have said MANY times in the past...we (most of us) are in a wilderness transitional walk between the two (Old Man and New Man). The wilderness is located between Egypt and the Promised Land. I suggest an in-depth study of the book of Exodus for those that are unfamiliar with the walk.
Now, is that transitional walk necessary? Only because we lack the requisite faith to enter into the Promised Land. If, and when, we exhibit that requisite faith...we are translated into the higher kingdom walk...according to the gospel. We are to seek the kingdom. We are not to think we improve ourselves into the kingdom.
What's in the way of that faith, is our dependence on our own understanding, and a reliance on the outer man of the flesh. The outer man is rooted in unbelief...having NO child-like faith. That faith comes from the inner man...the part of us that is created in the image of God.
The cross is meant to crucify the outer man...so that we can PUT ON the New Man. So we put off the outer man to empower the inner man to put on Christ.
That is the higher walk. It is very hard to enter into...but once you're in...all becomes easy. An empowered walk is far above the pull of sin. It is to walk as Jesus walked. That doesn't mean the devil will not try to tempt us away from that walk....he will wait years for his chance along the road to spiritual Christ-like maturity.
The hard walk is easy to enter into as that is the default walk for all who walk in their own power. These must struggle everyday with sins, temptations and the pull of the world that affects the outer man so much.
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I think you’re talking about learning righteousness here…and if so, it would be the exact opposite of what you say - it’s not Epi who despises the “small beginning” of righteousness and learning righteousness. It would be those who say that “small beginning” you speak of is just filthy rags who throw it away and take away that foundation.
SBG...you have become skilled in the word of righteousness. This blesses my heart. I pray that others might cast away all that produces iniquity to embrace the truth.
For every one that uses milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
The outer man controlled believer is drawn to the milk because it goes easy on the flesh. God goes easy on babies in Christ. The beginning of the immature must be watched over like a mother who molly-coddles the flesh...but when the Father comes in to discipline...the rebellion begins...it's seen as destroying the "foundations". As in...I want my mommy.
But maturity entails coming to the Father...and SO MANY hate that. They hate to have to go to the Father. Instead, they will say...I have my milk...and that milk suffices to make me mature. But as babes they will remain....until they repent from the childish rebellion that is supported by religious dogmatism.
I never took note of that verse.
We sort of just don’t even see what we aren’t ready for…as evidenced by hearing people who have read a verse over and over again who say, oh my gosh, how did I never see that verse…!
We sort of just don’t even see what we aren’t ready for…as evidenced by hearing people who have read a verse over and over again who say, oh my gosh, how did I never see that verse…!
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That’s why humility, fear of God and refusing to judge are important. At least if you don’t apprehend what you have been apprehended FOR, you can be accepted and a good place made for you.
I had to speak because I know what struggle back and forth I had for many years with some things you say. I remember thinking I had it down in my understanding and then bang! it seemed you were saying to me I was doomed. It was SO hard for me to grasp righteousness v. holiness and then KEEP it grasped!
Well, sister, think I'll let the Lord decide whether you are trying to be helpful, or are just trying to get in a poke.
SOMETHING sure must be filthy rags or else God is lying, which He cannot do.
Think we've already covered this territory, but I'll just leave these scriptures:
Rom 10:3-4
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to ESTABLISH THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness TO EVERYONE THAT BELIEVETH.
Heb 4:2-3
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being MIXED WITH FAITH in them that heard it.
For WE WHICH HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER INTO REST, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Eph 2:7-10
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
For BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH; AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
FOR WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Choking on my lunch a little bit with some of this, hmmm......never mind.
And why the need for mocking. It never ends. "I want my mommy"....? Really? Do I? or do I just want what is true? And man, I really must want it badly to put up with what I've put up with so far. Like the way back to the tree of Life is guarded by cherubim with flaming swords.
But I sometimes seem to glimpse that it's as though there are two levels to these truths. One is the small beginnings, and then we are to apprehend the same things but in a "larger" way. Once again it's on us how we respond to the grace of God.....we can let it spoil us or we can learn to realize how unworthy we are and be truly grateful. And then as we grow it becomes less about us and more about the Lord, about wanting to please Him because He has been so good to us.
A baby is born perfect. For a baby. The parents aren't scolding or rejecting their infant because it can't feed itself and earn a living yet. But then it needs to grow into adulthood. Every stage along the way is seen as perfect, as appropriate for the age of the child, assuming they are growing and developing properly. The bar of expectations gets raised as we become ready for the next level. But we do need to see what we are aiming for, it needs to be preached, the bar needs to be raised because in order to grow, God needs to make us uncomfortable with where we are.
No, I only poke men or women who are about attacking others. You are not attacking anyone right now.
Filthy rags verse is comparing righteousness TO holiness. It’s not belittling the small beginnings you spoke of. After that verse it says:
There is no one who calls on Your name,
Who stirs himself to take hold of You;
No one stirs himself to take hold of God? That is where Paul spoke of forgetting what lies behind and racing and pressing forward to grab (take hold) of the thing he had been grabbed FOR. Thats a seeking to enter into the kingdom. Now. To walk THERE in the Spirit.
And there’s a man here who at least did experience walking there. And he is like…one of the spies sent to scope out the land God wanted to give and he has come back and testifies that it’s a very good place. But people truly hate him and it astounds me.
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Isaiah 64:5-8 KJV
5) Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
6) But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
7) And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
8) But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
This passage?
I'm not seeing the comparison you are referring to.
Philippians 3:6-9 KJV
6) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7) But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8) Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Much love!
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Thanks, yes I agree. Faith is needed. Faith begins as a little seed that grows into a tree. (Tree of Life?) Though all these things are only analogies.
Are we taught that we should never turn the cheek then, but always poke back...? And when we only have empathy for those we like and not for those we don't agree with, is that ok?
Well, it's sometimes hard to gauge or discern someone else's experience....we only have their word or understanding of what they experienced...though I'm trying.
I like your middle paragraph there, but I'm too tired and distracted right now to try and parse the rest...except that as someone mentioned holiness produces righteousness.
hmmm, should I have only said hmmm then?
ok, I'll be direct.......I was just making a point that people don't seem to be as spiritual as is sometimes being implied...not seeing the fruits. That's not meant to be a poke, just an observation.
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