23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!

[Always Believing]

Saying you are derailing the Full Preterist thread, i have move this debate to where it belongs.

As I said, if you'd stuck to preterism, and not moved into amillennialism, then you would have a point. I don't pick fights just to argue and stir up trouble.

Do you believe "the end" (telos) is "the end" (telos)?

Telos ends the debate. By saying Christ's Millennium is only His current spiritual reign and kingdom on earth, you preach His everlasting kingdom expires and comes to an end.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As I said, if you'd stuck to preterism, and not moved into amillennialism, then you would have a point. I don't pick fights just to argue and stir up trouble.


Telos ends the debate. By saying Christ's Millennium is only His current spiritual reign and kingdom on earth, you preach His everlasting kingdom expires and comes to an end.

Why do people on here always try to tell others what they believe. Why don't you let us tell you what we believe instead? We (Amils) do not believe that His reign ends when the thousand years ends. Do you believe that?

Apparently, you realize that you can't refute Amillennialism with scripture, so you have resorted to misrepresenting Amillennialism instead.

 

[Keraz]

There is no greater reality than the accomplishments of Christ at Calvary.

It is reality which is impossible to deny.

Who denies that? Not me, but the Jews do and all the ungodly peoples.

What is your understanding of the fulfillment of Daniel 9:24? There are six things listed there that were to be fulfilled within the 70 weeks. For example, making an end of sin. What is your understanding of the fulfillment of that?

None of those 6 tenets in Daniel 9:24 have been fulfilled. They will be when Jesus Returns. Because all of the ungodly peoples will be dead.
However, after the Millennium, Satan will be released and sin will again rear its ugly head. Then: all people will be Judged and in Eternity: all those 6 tenets will be finally fulfilled.

 

[Keraz]

We (Amils) do not believe that His reign ends when the thousand years ends.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 refutes you and destroys the false AMill theory.

 

[covenantee]

Who denies that? Not me, but the Jews do and all the ungodly peoples.

None of those 6 tenets in Daniel 9:24 have been fulfilled. They will be when Jesus Returns. Because all of the ungodly peoples will be dead.
However, after the Millennium, Satan will be released and sin will again rear its ugly head. Then: all people will be Judged and in Eternity: all those 6 tenets will be finally fulfilled.

Your question:

Who denies that?

Your answer:

None of those 6 tenets in Daniel 9:24 have been fulfilled.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Who denies that? Not me, but the Jews do and all the ungodly peoples.

None of those 6 tenets in Daniel 9:24 have been fulfilled. They will be when Jesus Returns. Because all of the ungodly peoples will be dead.
However, after the Millennium, Satan will be released and sin will again rear its ugly head. Then: all people will be Judged and in Eternity: all those 6 tenets will be finally fulfilled.

You don't seem to be able to make up your mind. Do you believe those things will be fulfilled when Jesus returns or do you believe they will be fulfilled 1,000+ years later? It can't be both.

Those things were to be fulfilled by the end of the 70 weeks. So, when do you believe the 70th week will end?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 refutes you and destroys the false AMill theory.

Don't just make claims like this and act like you've proven anything. How exactly does 1 Cor 15:24-28 supposedly refute what I said? Do you think "the end" comes right when the thousand years ends? What about Satan's little season that follows the end of the thousand years? Did you forget about that?

 

[covenantee]

None of those 6 tenets in Daniel 9:24 have been fulfilled.

Daniel 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Everlasting righteousness was literally fulfilled, "brought in", 2,000 years ago.

At Calvary.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

1 John 2:29
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.


If the righteousness of which Paul, Peter, and John wrote wasn't already everlasting righteousness,
then tell us from Scripture when it ended, or when it ends.

 

[WPM]

As I said, if you'd stuck to preterism, and not moved into amillennialism, then you would have a point. I don't pick fights just to argue and stir up trouble.

Telos ends the debate. By saying Christ's Millennium is only His current spiritual reign and kingdom on earth, you preach His everlasting kingdom expires and comes to an end.

Yes (LOL), it does end the debate. It destroys Premil.

How can there be 2 first resurrections that are separated by 2000 years+? That does not add up. It is nonsensical. If there is one that follows the other it is obviously not the first but the 2nd. This shows the absurdity of Premil.

The fact that you mock Amils as being heretics for believing in the Lord's first resurrection shows who the real heretic is.

 

[WPM]

You don't seem to be able to make up your mind. Do you believe those things will be fulfilled when Jesus returns or do you believe they will be fulfilled 1,000+ years later? It can't be both.

Those things were to be fulfilled by the end of the 70 weeks. So, when do you believe the 70th week will end?

He will not even answer simple questions that expose his error. He is winging it.

 

[WPM]

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 refutes you and destroys the false AMill theory.

You have been making sweeping statements like this for years and been unable to substantiate any of them. That is because you have zero biblical support for your speculations.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He will not even answer simple questions that expose his error. He is winging it.

That seems to be a common theme on this forum.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes (LOL), it does end the debate. It destroys Premil.

How can there be 2 first resurrections that are separated by 2000 years+? That does not add up. It is nonsensical. If there is one that follows the other it is obviously not the first but the 2nd. This shows the absurdity of Premil.

Absolutely. Paul made it clear as to which resurrection was the first here:

1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection. The context is in regards to resurrections unto bodily immortality. His was clearly the first. Next in order, according to Paul, are "those who belong to him" and they will be resurrected "when he comes" again. Premils say that the resurrection of those who belong to Him when He comes again is the first resurrection, but scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection itself was the first resurrection.

As you know, the only other place in scripture where the Greek words protos (first) and anastasis (resurrection) are found together other than in Revelation 20 is in this verse:

Acts 26:23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Using scripture to interpret scripture, we have to conclude that the first resurrection is Christ's resurrection. So, the resurrection of the dead in Christ at His second coming is the second resurrection, not the first as Premils falsely claim.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He will not even answer simple questions that expose his error. He is winging it.

He knows that if he tells us what he really believes, which is that the 70th week will end when Christ returns, then that means his understanding of Daniel 9:24 would not make any sense because he thinks it's talking about the literal end of sin and literal everlasting righteousness being brought in and so on.

But, he does not believe that sin will end when Christ returns or that everlasting righteousness will be brought in at that time. He believes those things will occur 1,000+ years later. But, he can't admit that this means he would have to conclude that the 70th week could not end until 1,000+ years after Christ returns in that case.

Premils have no way of reconciling their view with Daniel 9:24. They claim that the 70th week ends when Christ returns, but also try to claim that Daniel 9:24 is talking about the literal end of sin, etc. Yet, their Premil view does not teach that sin will end when Christ returns. It's no wonder that when I've tried to get Premils to address their understanding of Daniel 9:24, they don't want any part of it.

 

[WPM]

Who denies that? Not me, but the Jews do and all the ungodly peoples.

None of those 6 tenets in Daniel 9:24 have been fulfilled. They will be when Jesus Returns. Because all of the ungodly peoples will be dead.
However, after the Millennium, Satan will be released and sin will again rear its ugly head. Then: all people will be Judged and in Eternity: all those 6 tenets will be finally fulfilled.

If you do not get what it says in Jeremiah 23:6 you will probably never understand salvation. It describes our God: “THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

If this is not the hope of your heart life then you have bought the devil’s lie. You are looking in the wrong direction.

2 Corinthians 5:21: "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made (or become) the righteousness of God in him."

Our sin was imputed or accounted to Christ; His righteousness was imputed or accounted to us! God's "righteousness" has always been "everlasting righteousness" but for man to experience that personally required Calvary. There, our sin was attributed to Jesus and there His "everlasting righteousness" was attributed to us. Up until then, the penalty for our sin had not been paid. Man had not entered into the eternal reality of imputed righteousness. The cross triggered that thus making that a current reality (Daniel 9:24).

Romans 5:19-21 states: “For as by one man's disobedience many were made (or kathistemi or designated) sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made (or kathistemi or designated) righteous. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Experiencing God’s “righteousness” which we know is “everlasting righteousness” is something that the New Testament tells us occurs in this age. The good news for us is:

· Jesus Christ volunteered to come to earth and live a perfect life as our substitute. Basically, He lived the life that we could never live on our behalf.
· He also agreed to take our penalty in full, so that we would never have to pay for it.
· For us it to take a hold of this incredible benefit He simply asked for us to surrender our sin to Him and receive His forgiveness, His perfect righteousness, and eternal life.

All our legal or covenant responsibilities were placed upon Christ, and all His legal or covenant merits were applied to us. This work is the eternal basis of our justification by faith.

It is the imputation of Christ's righteousness that causes us to be righteous. It is not something we become of ourselves. There is a legal transaction involved in our salvation and our sanctification (or covering). A righteousness that we could never attain has been placed within us through the life of Christ. The righteousness that the believer now owns is not his own it is imputed (or accounted to him) of Christ. It is Christ within him that is his righteousness. Every other religion in the world depends on their own self-righteousness – we depend totally on Christ’s.

1 Peter 2:2-4 informs us that Christ, “his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

If you are looking to anything other than Jesus and His shed blood at the cross for your salvation you are missing it. You are going to hell.

Please know that your confidence and hope is built exclusively upon Christ and what He wrought on our behalf. There was a perfect substitute (or representative) that took your individual place and lived the life you couldn’t and paid the price you couldn’t.

The great redemption chapter of Isaiah 53 prophesied of Christ in Isaiah 53:11-12: "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.”

Our sin was imputed to Christ; His righteousness was imputed to us. Christ’s perfect once all-sufficient self-sacrifice secured a full, real and perfect redemption for his own. 2 Corinthians 5:21 further says, “for he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”

The righteousness that the believer owns is not his own it is imputed (or put into him) of Christ. Every other religion in the world depends on their own self-righteousness – we depend totally on Christ.

Finally, how long does that righteousness last? We get the answer in Psalm 119:142: “Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.”

 

[WPM]

Who denies that? Not me, but the Jews do and all the ungodly peoples.

None of those 6 tenets in Daniel 9:24 have been fulfilled. They will be when Jesus Returns. Because all of the ungodly peoples will be dead.
However, after the Millennium, Satan will be released and sin will again rear its ugly head. Then: all people will be Judged and in Eternity: all those 6 tenets will be finally fulfilled.

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period - like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

 

[Christian Gedge]

Our sin was imputed or accounted to Christ; His righteousness was imputed or accounted to us! God's "righteousness" has always been "everlasting righteousness" but for man to experience that personally required Calvary. There, our sin was attributed to Jesus and there His "everlasting righteousness" was attributed to us. Up until then, the penalty for our sin had not been paid. Man had not entered into the eternal reality of imputed righteousness. The cross triggered that thus making that a current reality (Daniel 9:24).

Amen and Amen !!!

 

[Always Believing]

Do you believe "the end" (telos) is "the end" (telos)?

With all the debates or men swirling around, it's always unique about God to have a single word of Scripture to end it.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

If the Millennium of Christ on earth, only pertains to His current spiritual reign over all powers and principalities, then His everlasting kingdom expires and comes to an end.

In order to inexplicably reject the physical earthly reigning of Christ, then it must prophecy the spiritual everlasting kingdom of Christ will one day end.

And since the same word is used for Jesus' finishing His work on the cross, and expiring, then that too must be declared simile only.

As well as Moses' forty years of trial in the wilderness. And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.

The word telos with the ancients and with the Bible only applies to a definitive ending in time. There is nothing symbolic about it. The thousand year reign of Jesus on the cross, no matter how long someone wants to symbolize a thousand, it is prophesied to expire and end.

There is only one other group that rejects the physical reign of Christ on earth: those who reject Him coming in the flesh, as well as dying physically on the cross.

 

[Always Believing]

We (Amils) do not believe that His reign ends when the thousand years ends.

Then you are not speaking of the same reign of Christ, that Scripture is prophesying.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison.

His eternal reign and everlasting kingdom begun at His resurrection, will never end. His physical reign on earth will expire, before the earth itself passes away.

 

[WPM]

With all the debates or men swirling around, it's always unique about God to have a single word of Scripture to end it.

And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

If the Millennium of Christ on earth, only pertains to His current spiritual reign over all powers and principalities, then His everlasting kingdom expires and comes to an end.

In order to inexplicably reject the physical earthly reigning of Christ, then it must prophecy the spiritual everlasting kingdom of Christ will one day end.

And since the same word is used for Jesus' finishing His work on the cross, and expiring, then that too must be declared simile only.

As well as Moses' forty years of trial in the wilderness. And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.

The word telos with the ancients and with the Bible only applies to a definitive ending in time. There is nothing symbolic about it. The thousand year reign of Jesus on the cross, no matter how long someone wants to symbolize a thousand, it is prophesied to expire and end.

There is only one other group that rejects the physical reign of Christ on earth: those who reject Him coming in the flesh, as well as dying physically on the cross.

Rev 20 takes us back to the first resurrection of Christ, which you reject. That speaks for itself. Every other resurrection cannot be the first. Hello! Premil takes common linguistic terms that are easily understood by the unindoctrinated observer in any language to mean the opposite to what they actually say. For example, Premil does not believe that "first" means first and "last" means last. The English words “first” and “last” are taken from the Greek words protos and eschatos and are widely accepted by all unbiased theologians to denote exactly what they say. The word protos means first, as in the foremost in time, place, order or importance. The word eschatos on the other hand means end, last, farthest and final. It is explicitly clear from their usage, meaning and context in the New Testament that these words are the exact antithesis of each other.