Heart Talks on Holiness

[marks]

I respectfully disagree with you, as I have read many testimonies of people who experienced life-changing "second" blessings (maybe it's the name "second blessing" that you don't agree with, that it's all one BIGGGGGGG blessing). To agree with you would mean that these people didn't have the "second blessing" that they experienced and lived in....and to take it further, that they are lying about it!?!? I don't think that such a dogmatic stance is necessary. Perhaps for you, you don't want or need it, but it's on you to disprove that these people didn't have a second blessing when they said they did, and it completely changed their lives. Just quickly, Jessie Penn Lewis and Smith Wigglesworth as well as Brengle spoke, testified, and wrote (I read it) about it. So, who are you to say there is none??

Respectfully,

a seeker

Simply stated, we should interpret our experiences according to the Bible, and not interpret the Bible according to our experiences.

There isn't a "second blessing" taught in the Bible the way you are meaning, but if you think that is your experience, you can then go and find snippets of passages that you can use, but at the cost of what they are really talking about.

I don't question anyone's experience, we have all sorts of experiences, and some we may never really understand. What I object to is the redefinition of Scripture because someone had an experience, and they are certain that this means, "there is a second benefit", and now they are certain, You need to have the "second benefit", or whatever their particular thought is.

Do you likewise see a third benefit, and a fourth benefit, and so on? Or only 2?

Much love!

 

[marks]

When once a true man is convinced that the Bible teaches these facts, and that this is God’s will, he will next inquire, “ What is this holiness, when can I get it, and how ? ’’

These are good questions.

One of the first passages that comes to my mind when I ask these is,

1 Corinthians 1:27-31 KJV
27) But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28) And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29) That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30) But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31) That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Jesus is made unto us . . . sanctification, that is, being made holy.

Romans 6:19-22 KJV
19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20) For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21) What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Serving God is doing righteousness, and will produce holiness. We are to submit to Him.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If a "Second Benefit" brings greater sanctification, may we likewise also mature into that same sanctification?

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

Simply stated, we should interpret our experiences according to the Bible, and not interpret the Bible according to our experiences.

There isn't a "second blessing" taught in the Bible the way you are meaning, but if you think that is your experience, you can then go and find snippets of passages that you can use, but at the cost of what they are really talking about.

I don't question anyone's experience, we have all sorts of experiences, and some we may never really understand. What I object to is the redefinition of Scripture because someone had an experience, and they are certain that this means, "there is a second benefit", and now they are certain, You need to have the "second benefit", or whatever their particular thought is.

Do you likewise see a third benefit, and a fourth benefit, and so on? Or only 2?

Much love!

Yes, there are many blessings along the way, but this is particularly talking about maturing up, the fulfilling of our faith as far as it can be in this life. That is what I see in Exodus 21:2-6 about the indentured Hebrew slave being set free in the seventh year. We follow a pattern in our "spiritual youth" of being tutored to Christ..."as long as the heir is a child he is no more than a slave/servant", and we serve largely out of fear, like a child fearing punishment and indeed undergoing the necessary chastisements. But then comes a time when we are ready to be obedient without fear, but because we are grown up and trained enough to be able to obey His laws out of our own volition and free will.....so we are set free of the bondage of threat of punishment like the Hebrew slave in Exodus 2. And now we are free to choose our Master of our own free will! That is the "second blessing", when the Master accepts the free will offering of our life as a living sacrifice. Like the consummation of a marriage. I believe there is a personal level in what is being communicated in the wedding feast allegory. The betrothed is not married until she is mature enough to be married and accept her beloved of her own volition, not under parental compulsion. In the beginning He chose us, we didn't choose Him....no more than a baby chooses to be born, but is begotten by the will of the Father. But when we mature then it is us choosing Him of our own free will and that is the wedding feast.....a kind of second blessing which bears spiritual fruit like a wedding union produces children. First blessing is the birth when we are born again, secondly the wedding once we are grown up and matured. No wedding unless the bride consents and offers herself to the Groom of her own free will. That is what the scriptures seem to be showing.

Maturing is HOW we will be ready for the return of Christ, the Bridegroom. Growing to that point is HOW we are preparing for His return. He is not coming for an immature child bride but a grown up adult who has overcome. The 5 unwise virgins had not grown up, that is why they were out of oil.....they had not grown (increased) because they had not been "investing" what they had been given initially...paying the price to grow/increase...parable of the talents.

 

[Lizbeth]

Might we reach that maturity having not necessarily received a "Second Benefit"? Or only in that way?

Much love!

Not that I can say this by experience (yet, hopefully) but I think I would say that once we have fully matured, we WILL at that point enter the wedding feast and be married to the Bridegroom. For that is what it means to be matured in Christ....we are no more children, but have become His wife, union with Him....producing babies....fruit of the spiritual kind. And just like being born again was an experience in a moment of time, think we can expect that the "marriage" occurs as a similar experience too. I wonder if this all concurs with all those who testify of a second blessing, though I know the Lord may use different scriptures to speak to different individuals.

 

[marks]

First blessing is the birth when we are born again, secondly the wedding once we are grown up and matured. No wedding unless the bride consents and offers herself to the Groom of her own free will. That is what the scriptures seem to be showing.

I think what I see more is that we become members of Christ's body when we are baptized into Him, while being as a bride to Christ is a simile that shows the depth or our relationship. We could look at individual passages on this if you like.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

I think what I see more is that we become members of Christ's body when we are baptized into Him, while being as a bride to Christ is a simile that shows the depth or our relationship. We could look at individual passages on this if you like.

Much love!

How about the two distinct baptisms of the children of israel....first the Red Sea, then the Jordan River? I have been looking all along to try and see what is concurrent or not....there is a "little by little" mentioned.....but my mind is getting tired, so need to give this a rest for now. :) Pretty sure that union with Christ would be another beginning, much like being born again was. Not an "end all and be all", but producing more and better fruit, without the mixture of flesh and self effort. Becoming a saint in the fullest sense of the word.

 

[marks]

How about the two distinct baptisms of the children of israel....first the Red Sea, then the Jordan River?

1 Corinthians 10:1-2 KJV
1) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Here is the Red Sea, but I'm not aware of the Jordan crossing being a baptism for the children of Israel.

You mentioned "little by little", that is referring to taking possession of the promised land little by little, AFTER crossing the Jordan. Crossing the Jordan was to them the beginning of taking possession, not a full conquering of the land.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

Simply stated, we should interpret our experiences according to the Bible, and not interpret the Bible according to our experiences.

There isn't a "second blessing" taught in the Bible the way you are meaning, but if you think that is your experience, you can then go and find snippets of passages that you can use, but at the cost of what they are really talking about.

I don't question anyone's experience, we have all sorts of experiences, and some we may never really understand. What I object to is the redefinition of Scripture because someone had an experience, and they are certain that this means, "there is a second benefit", and now they are certain, You need to have the "second benefit", or whatever their particular thought is.

Do you likewise see a third benefit, and a fourth benefit, and so on? Or only 2?

Much love!

Ditto

 

[Lizbeth]

1 Corinthians 10:1-2 KJV
1) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

Here is the Red Sea, but I'm not aware of the Jordan crossing being a baptism for the children of Israel.

You mentioned "little by little", that is referring to taking possession of the promised land little by little, AFTER crossing the Jordan. Crossing the Jordan was to them the beginning of taking possession, not a full conquering of the land.

Much love!

These things happened unto them for ensamples to the church....allegories, lessons to learn from, and a pattern that we follow. The Jordan River crossing had to have been very significant.....it was at flood stage and the Lord stopped it all the way back to a town called Adam. Flood stage indicates to me a more thorough cleansing , so to speak. (It had to have been written for a reason, not to give us a geography lesson about the river.) Town called Adam, well that seems to indicate the flow from the Adamic nature being stopped, cut off......overcome in other words, so no more struggling with it. Entering the Promised land is allegorical for entering the Kingdom of God. Consecration to the Lord and "circumcised a second time". This is all after the Red Sea baptism (born again and faith in Christ) and the wilderness.

 

[marks]

These things happened unto them for ensamples to the church....allegories, lessons to learn from, and a pattern that we follow. The Jordan River crossing had to have been very significant.....it was at flood stage and the Lord stopped it all the way back to a town called Adam. Flood stage indicates to me a more thorough cleansing , so to speak. (It had to have been written for a reason, not to give us a geography lesson about the river.) Town called Adam, well that seems to indicate the flow from the Adamic nature being stopped, cut off......overcome in other words, so no more struggling with it. Entering the Promised land is allegorical for entering the Kingdom of God. Consecration to the Lord and "circumcised a second time". This is all after the Red Sea baptism (born again and faith in Christ) and the wilderness.

How do you see taking the land little by little after the second benefit? And Achan's disobedience?

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

How do you see taking the land little by little after the second benefit? And Achan's disobedience?

Much love!

Well that's the thing, I'm not sure. We are taking land little by little now in a way, fighting our own battle with the flesh....maybe after overcoming the flesh it will be much more about fighting the Lord's battles, little by little, and no longer our own?

 

[Lizbeth]

I think what I see more is that we become members of Christ's body when we are baptized into Him, while being as a bride to Christ is a simile that shows the depth or our relationship. We could look at individual passages on this if you like.

Much love!

If we look closely at the Hebrew slave in Exodus 2.....see how it is just like a marriage....first they had to go before a judge to formalize the arrangement, with both freely consenting, the slave freely offering himself to the Master (living sacrifice) then it was "consummated" at the doorpost. A covenant. Like a marriage is a covenant. I'm leaning to the culmination of growing up into Him as being a second "experience" like the first....both requiring FAITH and an action of the Holy Spirit. A "crossing over" and right of passage from childhood into full adulthood and what being an adult means.

A tree really can only bear fully ripened fruit when it is mature. Not that we aren't bearing any fruit at all as children, but it is overall on the level of children and we are prone to more mistakes or not getting things quite right. Children and youth do help around the house and with the Father's business, learning and being trained as we go, but when we become "adults" the norm is that we get married and there begins to be more authority and strength and effectiveness behind what we do. :)

 

[ChristisGod]

If we look closely at the Hebrew slave in Exodus 2.....see how it is just like a marriage....first they had to go before a judge to formalize the arrangement, with both freely consenting, the slave freely offering himself to the Master (living sacrifice) then it was "consummated" at the doorpost. A covenant. Like a marriage is a covenant. I'm leaning to the culmination of growing up into Him as being a second "experience" like the first....both requiring FAITH and an action of the Holy Spirit. A "crossing over" and right of passage from childhood into full adulthood and what being an adult means.

A tree really can only bear fully ripened fruit when it is mature. Not that we aren't bearing any fruit at all as children, but it is overall on the level of children and we are prone to more mistakes or not getting things quite right. Children and youth do help around the house and with the Father's business, learning and being trained as we go, but when we become "adults" the norm is that we get married and there begins to be more authority and strength and effectiveness behind what we do. :)

I just so happen to live in the Central Valley of California one of the horticulture capitals of the world. I have over 40 different kinds/varieties of fruit trees and also over a dozen different varieties of vining berries/fruit that I have been growing for years. I have delicious fruit from vary young trees after their first year in the ground. Peaches, Nectarines, Plums, Pluots, Pomegranates, Avocados, Mandarins, Oranges, Lemons, Limes, Grapes, Raspberries, Blueberries, Blackberries, Mulberries. All of the above have produced delicious fruit early. The bigger they get the more fruit they produce. I'm very familiar with the language of the bible from a practical standpoint when it comes to the farmer, land, soil, seed, weeds, cultivating, nutrition, weather, water, pH, pruning etc........

 

[Lizbeth]

I just so happen to live in the Central Valley of California one of the horticulture capitals of the world. I have over 40 different kinds/varieties of fruit trees and also over a dozen different varieties of vining berries/fruit that I have been growing for years. I have delicious fruit from vary young trees after their first year in the ground. Peaches, Nectarines, Plums, Pluots, Pomegranates, Avocados, Mandarins, Oranges, Lemons, Limes, Grapes, Raspberries, Blueberries, Blackberries, Mulberries. All of the above have produced delicious fruit early. The bigger they get the more fruit they produce. I'm very familiar with the language of the bible from a practical standpoint when it comes to the farmer, land, soil, seed, weeds, cultivating, nutrition, weather, water, pH, pruning etc........

That sounds so lovely brother. :) May the Lord grant sufficient rain. Maybe my analogy wasn't that great. Maybe the point really is that our fruit needs to ripen....the bible talks about bringing our fruit to perfection. And could we agree that seeds and little saplings aren't very fruitful? We have the analogy of the farmer sowing seeds and those seeds growing. And a corn of wheat needing to be buried in the ground to DIE before producing a crop that is greater than itself. This is why the Lord prunes (cuts away, kills) our fruitful branches in order that it produces more and better fruit.....which is an analogy to dying to ourselves....which is HOW we mature in Christ, dying to ourselves...loving not our lives unto the death of our self-life, that His strength be made perfect in our weakness..

 

[marks]

I just so happen to live in the Central Valley of California one of the horticulture capitals of the world. I have over 40 different kinds/varieties of fruit trees and also over a dozen different varieties of vining berries/fruit that I have been growing for years. I have delicious fruit from vary young trees after their first year in the ground. Peaches, Nectarines, Plums, Pluots, Pomegranates, Avocados, Mandarins, Oranges, Lemons, Limes, Grapes, Raspberries, Blueberries, Blackberries, Mulberries. All of the above have produced delicious fruit early. The bigger they get the more fruit they produce. I'm very familiar with the language of the bible from a practical standpoint when it comes to the farmer, land, soil, seed, weeds, cultivating, nutrition, weather, water, pH, pruning etc........

What a joy to have all that available!! I live in an apartment with a patio, and can merely dream of such plenty.

Much love!

 

[marks]

If we look closely at the Hebrew slave in Exodus 2.....see how it is just like a marriage....first they had to go before a judge to formalize the arrangement, with both freely consenting, the slave freely offering himself to the Master (living sacrifice) then it was "consummated" at the doorpost. A covenant. Like a marriage is a covenant. I'm leaning to the culmination of growing up into Him as being a second "experience" like the first....both requiring FAITH and an action of the Holy Spirit. A "crossing over" and right of passage from childhood into full adulthood and what being an adult means.

This takes my mind to Ephesians,

Ephesians 4:11-15 KJV
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

In this passage maturity has to do with how we relate to others in the Body of Christ.

Moving from childhood to adulthood is here described in coming into the unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God. That there is a core reality of faith and knowledge, and when we reach that, it means we are in agreement with all others who have reached that, and we can then begin to build up each other.

Without that agreement, well, you can see the results of that daily, right here. Instead of building up, there is much tearing down.

Philippians 3:9-16 KJV
9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11) If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12) Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14) I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15) Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16) Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Here Paul speaks of maturity in relation to our pursuit of righteousness, knowing Christ, His resurrection power, sharing in His sufferings, being made conformable to His death.

Self sacrifice and service, without disputes. Not trying to be righteous on my own merit, but seeking the righteousness of God. Not being self-conscious, instead reaching towards Christ.

Those who are perfect, in this passage, are still described in these terms, still pressing toword the mark of the prize, still not having attained to the resurrection, still seeking to apprehend what he was apprehended for.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

This takes my mind to Ephesians,

Ephesians 4:11-15 KJV
11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

In this passage maturity has to do with how we relate to others in the Body of Christ.

Moving from childhood to adulthood is here described in coming into the unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God. That there is a core reality of faith and knowledge, and when we reach that, it means we are in agreement with all others who have reached that, and we can then begin to build up each other.

Without that agreement, well, you can see the results of that daily, right here. Instead of building up, there is much tearing down.

Philippians 3:9-16 KJV
9) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10) That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11) If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12) Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13) Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14) I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15) Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16) Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

Here Paul speaks of maturity in relation to our pursuit of righteousness, knowing Christ, His resurrection power, sharing in His sufferings, being made conformable to His death.

Self sacrifice and service, without disputes. Not trying to be righteous on my own merit, but seeking the righteousness of God. Not being self-conscious, instead reaching towards Christ.

Those who are perfect, in this passage, are still described in these terms, still pressing toword the mark of the prize, still not having attained to the resurrection, still seeking to apprehend what he was apprehended for.

Much love!

Yes we are to always have the humility of mind not to think of ourselves as having "arrived"...this is why I was likening it to another beginning....not the end of the journey. Still very much pilgrims and soldiers fighting the war, but another 'aspect' of it maybe we could say..? or fighting on another level...? (not sure of the right word).

 

[marks]

Yes we are to always have the humility of mind not to think of ourselves as having "arrived"...this is why I was likening it to another beginning....not the end of the journey. Still very much pilgrims and soldiers fighting the war, but another 'aspect' of it maybe we could say..? or fighting on another level...? (not sure of the right word).

I guess to me there is some of both. We've arrived at unity to begin serving and building each other, and we'll never have arrived until we are transformed into His likeness when we see Him.

Perhaps some testify of a second time in life when they experienced something transformative, and for these, they teach a "second benefit". And others testify of more times of transformational work in their lives, and they will describe something different. And I believe there are some who exprerience great transformation when they first come to Christ, and others who experience a pattern of transformative work during the course of their lives.

For myself, I want to be holy as He is holy, and I don't have any issues with whatever way He provides to help me to be holy.

I give a lot of thought towards meditating on knowing what is holiness, and what does it mean to be holy? To my thinking, being holy "looks like" having a mind, a will, solely occupied with loving and serving God, and with loving and serving others, as worship of God, without any regard towards myself.

Romans 6:19 KJV
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

We sow righteous works towards reaping holiness. Determining to serve God and serve others is dedicating ourselves to holiness. We yield our members - body parts - servants to righteousness. That's specifically what we do with our hands, and eyes, and mouth, and so on. But those righteous works are not works from the Mosaic Law, rather, works from the Law of Love.

I see two kinds of holiness.

One is like the potter takes a block of clay, and then sets aside a certain portion. From the rest, he's going to make all the usual wares, but that part he set aside, that's for a particular thing he's going to make. That part is holy. It is separated out from the rest, to be used solely for the potter's purpose, and even though it is still unformed, it is holy.

Then there is holiness I can know in my self, a mind, a heart, a will, fully trusting God. A full trust leads to heartfelt submission, and true humility. I have zero confidence in myself, 100% confidence in God, and therefore walk in His way.

I think these are brought together in,

Colossians 1:10 KJV
That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

I guess to me there is some of both. We've arrived at unity to begin serving and building each other, and we'll never have arrived until we are transformed into His likeness when we see Him.

Perhaps some testify of a second time in life when they experienced something transformative, and for these, they teach a "second benefit". And others testify of more times of transformational work in their lives, and they will describe something different. And I believe there are some who exprerience great transformation when they first come to Christ, and others who experience a pattern of transformative work during the course of their lives.

For myself, I want to be holy as He is holy, and I don't have any issues with whatever way He provides to help me to be holy.

I give a lot of thought towards meditating on knowing what is holiness, and what does it mean to be holy? To my thinking, being holy "looks like" having a mind, a will, solely occupied with loving and serving God, and with loving and serving others, as worship of God, without any regard towards myself.

Romans 6:19 KJV
I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

We sow righteous works towards reaping holiness. Determining to serve God and serve others is dedicating ourselves to holiness. We yield our members - body parts - servants to righteousness. That's specifically what we do with our hands, and eyes, and mouth, and so on. But those righteous works are not works from the Mosaic Law, rather, works from the Law of Love.

I see two kinds of holiness.

One is like the potter takes a block of clay, and then sets aside a certain portion. From the rest, he's going to make all the usual wares, but that part he set aside, that's for a particular thing he's going to make. That part is holy. It is separated out from the rest, to be used solely for the potter's purpose, and even though it is still unformed, it is holy.

Then there is holiness I can know in my self, a mind, a heart, a will, fully trusting God. A full trust leads to heartfelt submission, and true humility. I have zero confidence in myself, 100% confidence in God, and therefore walk in His way.

I think these are brought together in,

Colossians 1:10 KJV
That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Much love!

Amen, I like what you said there about not having any issues with however He may provide to make us holy. Same here.

I've heard some call what we're discussing here a baptism of fire, burning up what remains of the flesh nature, according to how I've heard them testify of it.