Heart Talks on Holiness

[Laurina]

Hi, I've been a "visitor" to this site from many, many years and finally became a member when one thread I was interested in took off and I wasn't able to read it as fast as it was happening. That's what sparked my membership...but what keeps me away is all the ridiculous bickering. My interest is the testimony of @Episkopos because it seems to line up with the testimonies of others who have since passed on to glory.

Matthew 7:7,8 says "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."

In my reading last night from a book called "Heart Talks on Holiness" by Samuel Logan Brengle I found teachings and testimony by Brengle that I believe @Episkopos is speaking about and has himself experienced. Brengle was known as a saintly man in the Salvation Army Revival. In the book, Brengle wastes no time and in Chapter 1 page 2, I read this:

"....At the same time God plants in the man’s heart a new life. The man is born of God, and receives what Paul calls the washing of regeneration, which washes away all the man’s guilt, and all the sin for which he is responsible. At this time, too, there will be planted in the man’s heart love, joy, peace, and the various fruits of the Spirit, and if his experience is very marked, as such experiences frequently are, he will probably think there is nothing more to be done. But, if he walks in “ humbleness of mind ” (which, by the way, is a much-neglected fruit of the Spirit), if he speaks often and freely with those who love the Lord, and if he carefully searches the Word of God and “ meditates therein day and night,” he will soon find that sin’s disease is deeper and more deadly than he thought, and that behind and below his own sins are the “works of the devil,” that must also be destroyed before the work of grace in his soul can be complete."

Please, only those interested in holiness need to comment.

a seeker

 

[Laurina]

Continuing....Brengle goes on to say this:

"John calls it “sin,” as distinct from “sins,” and the “ works of the devil.” Ezekiel calls it a “ stony heart ” (chap, xxxvi. 26). The theologians call it “inbred sin,” “original sin,” and “depravity.” Whatever you wish to call it, it is something evil and awful that remains in the heart after a man has been converted.
Some say that it is gotten ridden of at conversion, but I never saw any people who found it so, and Mr. Wesley, who was a much wiser man than I am, and who had a far wider range of observation, examined thousands of people on this very point, and he said he never
knew of one who got rid of this troublesome thing at conversion."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

"....At the same time God plants in the man’s heart a new life. The man is born of God, and receives what Paul calls the washing of regeneration, which washes away all the man’s guilt, and all the sin for which he is responsible.

Can you please explain what this means to you?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Continuing....Brengle goes on to say this:

"John calls it “sin,” as distinct from “sins,” and the “ works of the devil.” Ezekiel calls it a “ stony heart ” (chap, xxxvi. 26). The theologians call it “inbred sin,” “original sin,” and “depravity.” Whatever you wish to call it, it is something evil and awful that remains in the heart after a man has been converted.
Some say that it is gotten ridden of at conversion, but I never saw any people who found it so, and Mr. Wesley, who was a much wiser man than I am, and who had a far wider range of observation, examined thousands of people on this very point, and he said he never
knew of one who got rid of this troublesome thing at conversion."

Paul in Romans 7 shows how the flesh remains, That he struggled to do what he wanted. and could not stop to do things he did nto want to do. the war in the body between the flesh and spirit.

We all suffer this war within.. I always tell myself. If paul. and all he experienced could not find complete sinless victory. I would be a fool to think i could do it.. Paul continued to run the race up until the end. when in death he finally found that thing we all looked for..

 

[Laurina]

So, I found/find this very interesting what Brengle says/teaches:

"Some people say that growing in grace is the remedy.
Some people say you never get rid of it while you live. It will remain in you and war against you till
you die. They are not altogether prophets of despair, for they say the new life in you will overcome it and keep it down, but that you will have to stand on guard
and watch it, club and repress it, as you would a
maniac, till death relieves you.....

Personally, this subject once gave me great concern. These warring opinions perplexed me, while the “ old man” made increasing war against all my holy desires and purposes. But while I found man’s teachings and theories were perplexing, God’s teachings were plain and light as day.
1. God doesn’t admit that we get rid of this at conversion, for all His teachings and exhortations con- cerning it are addressed to Christians. And those who hold this doctrine will have to admit one of two things — either that it is not removed at conversion, or that a great number of earnest professors who claimed to be converted have never been converted at all. Personally, I cannot admit the latter for an instant."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So, I found/find this very interesting what Brengle says/teaches:

"Some people say that growing in grace is the remedy.
Some people say you never get rid of it while you live. It will remain in you and war against you till
you die. They are not altogether prophets of despair, for they say the new life in you will overcome it and keep it down, but that you will have to stand on guard
and watch it, club and repress it, as you would a
maniac, till death relieves you.....

Personally, this subject once gave me great concern. These warring opinions perplexed me, while the “ old man” made increasing war against all my holy desires and purposes. But while I found man’s teachings and theories were perplexing, God’s teachings were plain and light as day.
1. God doesn’t admit that we get rid of this at conversion, for all His teachings and exhortations con- cerning it are addressed to Christians. And those who hold this doctrine will have to admit one of two things — either that it is not removed at conversion, or that a great number of earnest professors who claimed to be converted have never been converted at all. Personally, I cannot admit the latter for an instant."

I have been thinking. I do not know of any9one who said the old man was removed at conversion.. Well maybe on in here. who claims he is sinless.

so who are these people who claim this? I am just honestly asking, because I personally do not remember hearing this

 

[marks]

"....At the same time God plants in the man’s heart a new life. The man is born of God, and receives what Paul calls the washing of regeneration, which washes away all the man’s guilt, and all the sin for which he is responsible. At this time, too, there will be planted in the man’s heart love, joy, peace, and the various fruits of the Spirit, and if his experience is very marked, as such experiences frequently are, he will probably think there is nothing more to be done. But, if he walks in “ humbleness of mind ” (which, by the way, is a much-neglected fruit of the Spirit), if he speaks often and freely with those who love the Lord, and if he carefully searches the Word of God and “ meditates therein day and night,” he will soon find that sin’s disease is deeper and more deadly than he thought, and that behind and below his own sins are the “works of the devil,” that must also be destroyed before the work of grace in his soul can be complete."

There seems to be a much different understanding of what it means to be born again, and I think that needs to be clarified before having a meaningful conversation of the results of rebirth.

Could you share your understanding of what happens in regeneration?

Much love!

 

[Laurina]

I love this book...and I want to read more!!!

"...this work is not to be a slow, evolutionary process, but an instantaneous work, wrought in the heart of the humble believer by the Holy Ghost.
Blessed be God! And the Bible further teaches that the one thing needful on our part to secure this operation of the Holy Spirit is an obedient faith “that laughs at impossibilities, and cries it shall be done.’’
If this Bible teaching is true, then it is a matter that can be proven by experience. If one man proves it to be so, that establishes the Bible testimony against all the doubters in the world. All men used to believe the world was flat. Columbus rose up and said it was round, and he proved it against them all. There may be some ignorant old fogies yet who believe the world is flat, but they can prove it to be round, if they will take the trouble, and whether they prove it or not, their pure blind unbelief does not change the fact."

a seeker

 

[Laurina]

People, it's a beautiful day that the Lord has made, I'm going out to enjoy it!!! Talk later!

a seeker

 

[Episkopos]

I love this book...and I want to read more!!!

"...this work is not to be a slow, evolutionary process, but an instantaneous work, wrought in the heart of the humble believer by the Holy Ghost.

Amen. See, by this I see that the man knew God and His power...and wasn't just an indoctrinated dogmatic religiously converted man.

Blessed be God! And the Bible further teaches that the one thing needful on our part to secure this operation of the Holy Spirit is an obedient faith “that laughs at impossibilities, and cries it shall be done.’’
If this Bible teaching is true, then it is a matter that can be proven by experience.

Amen again! If something is true...we can seek the Lord for the experience of it. If we do it by faith...without being double-minded...we can experience the fulness of God as we read about in the NT testimonies.

If one man proves it to be so, that establishes the Bible testimony against all the doubters in the world.

As I have been doing here...

All men used to believe the world was flat. Columbus rose up and said it was round, and he proved it against them all. There may be some ignorant old fogies yet who believe the world is flat, but they can prove it to be round, if they will take the trouble, and whether they prove it or not, their pure blind unbelief does not change the fact."

a seeker

Amen. Pure blind unbelief is now the norm. Would that that would change.

 

[Episkopos]

People, it's a beautiful day that the Lord has made, I'm going out to enjoy it!!! Talk later!

a seeker

A great thread and thank you...O seeker!

<><

Peace

 

[marks]

1. God doesn’t admit that we get rid of this at conversion, for all His teachings and exhortations con- cerning it are addressed to Christians. And those who hold this doctrine will have to admit one of two things — either that it is not removed at conversion, or that a great number of earnest professors who claimed to be converted have never been converted at all. Personally, I cannot admit the latter for an instant."

I think there is a third answer, and that this is the answer which the Bible teaches us. That being, the fleshy man is crucified in Christ, and made powerless, and, we are born a new person, but we don't understand these things, and continue to live as though we were still flesh. So we have to come to understand what is and is not spirit, and deny what is flesh, knowing that it has no power, and we have to choose to walk in what is Spirit, knowing that God has given us power.

I think we experience this as the internal warring that we all know so well. And I think we describe things in very different ways, though we experience the same sorts of things.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

These warring opinions perplexed me, while the “ old man” made increasing war against all my holy desires and purposes. But while I found man’s teachings and theories were perplexing, God’s teachings were plain and light as day.
1. God doesn’t admit that we get rid of this at conversion,

Paul teaches that "the old man of sin is crucified with Christ", and to "reckon him dead".

Why? Because its true.
And what is the result of this?

"He that is DEAD, is freed from Sin". and Alive to God, as Born again "in Christ".

 

[marks]

I have been thinking. I do not know of any9one who said the old man was removed at conversion.. Well maybe on in here. who claims he is sinless.

so who are these people who claim this? I am just honestly asking, because I personally do not remember hearing this

"Removed" isn't Biblical language, So I have to ask, what is meant by that?

The Biblical language is that the old man is dead. And we have to ask again, what is meant by that?

People often define death as inactivity, and then go on to say, the old man obviously isn't dead, otherwise, why do I still feel the lusts for evil things? The Bible speaks of death as separation. Abraham, and the rich man, and Lazarus, were not inactive, only, they had no more place here. Samuel, in a rare event, spoke once more in the land of the living.

The flesh of the regenerate is as one who speaks from the grave, not inactive, but separated.

"...this work is not to be a slow, evolutionary process, but an instantaneous work, wrought in the heart of the humble believer by the Holy Ghost.
Blessed be God! And the Bible further teaches that the one thing needful on our part to secure this operation of the Holy Spirit is an obedient faith “that laughs at impossibilities, and cries it shall be done.’’
If this Bible teaching is true, then it is a matter that can be proven by experience.

Amen!!

I believe the Holy Spirit is working in us always, and always providing what we need to life holy and righteous lives. If we will believe this, without doubting. I find this is in fact proven by experience.

Some say that it is gotten ridden of at conversion, but I never saw any people who found it so, and Mr. Wesley, who was a much wiser man than I am, and who had a far wider range of observation, examined thousands of people on this very point, and he said he never
knew of one who got rid of this troublesome thing at conversion."

I find we don't become rid of the flesh, that's our body, we need it in this world. But we are released from it's power through the cross, and now in faith can transcend it's influence, and walk in the Spirit, even though we remain in bodies of flesh.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Amen. See, by this I see that the man knew God and His power...and wasn't just an indoctrinated dogmatic religiously converted man.


Amen again! If something is true...we can seek the Lord for the experience of it. If we do it by faith...without being double-minded...we can experience the fulness of God as we read about in the NT testimonies.


As I have been doing here...

Amen. Pure blind unbelief is now the norm. Would that that would change.

Unless your born again, all you will get is experience..

Satan comes as an angel of light. we should not think every experience we may have is from God..

 

[marks]

Unless your born again, all you will get is experience..

Satan comes as an angel of light. we should not think every experience we may have is from God..

And we should be careful to interpret our experiences by the Bible, and not the other way around.

Much love!

 

[Laurina]

Can you please explain what this means to you?

I think this is very straight forward. A heart has been washed and is brand new....like a clean page ready to be written upon.

 

[Laurina]

I have been thinking. I do not know of any9one who said the old man was removed at conversion.. Well maybe on in here. who claims he is sinless.

so who are these people who claim this? I am just honestly asking, because I personally do not remember hearing this

You are asking my opinion of what the author thinks? Why would it matter??

 

[Laurina]

There seems to be a much different understanding of what it means to be born again, and I think that needs to be clarified before having a meaningful conversation of the results of rebirth.

Could you share your understanding of what happens in regeneration?

Much love!

"....At the same time God plants in the man’s heart a new life. The man is born of God, and receives what Paul calls the washing of regeneration, which washes away all the man’s guilt, and all the sin for which he is responsible. At this time, too, there will be planted in the man’s heart love, joy, peace, and the various fruits of the Spirit, and if his experience is very marked, as such experiences frequently are, he will probably think there is nothing more to be done. But, if he walks in “ humbleness of mind ” (which, by the way, is a much-neglected fruit of the Spirit), if he speaks often and freely with those who love the Lord, and if he carefully searches the Word of God and “ meditates therein day and night,” he will soon find that sin’s disease is deeper and more deadly than he thought, and that behind and below his own sins are the “works of the devil,” that must also be destroyed before the work of grace in his soul can be complete."

I believe regeneration is defined in the same sentence..."which washes away all the man’s guilt, and all the sin for which he is responsible." I don't have a problem with this definition. I also understand that one could see this as the beginning of the race of faith which could be the "sample" that @Episkopos speaks of, as in the first step in the Christian walk. I have no problem with this either.

a seeker

 

[Laurina]

Dear Moderator,
Could this thread be moved to the appropriate forum?

Thank-you

a seeker