Heart Talks on Holiness

[Laurina]

You do realize the passage you quoted is in ITALICS in your bible for a reasons right ?

Actually in my Bible it's in red letters...which means Jesus spoke them. And Jesus is the way the truth and the life, right??

 

[ChristisGod]

Actually in my Bible it's in red letters...which means Jesus spoke them. And Jesus is the way the truth and the life, right??

Although the vast majority of later Greek manuscripts contain Mark 16:9-20, the Gospel of Mark ends at verse 8 in two of the oldest and most respected manuscripts, the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. As the oldest manuscripts are known to be the most accurate because there were fewer generations of copies from the original autographs (i.e., they are much closer in time to the originals), and the oldest manuscripts do not contain vv. 9-20, we can conclude that these verses were added later by scribes. The King James Version of the Bible, as well as the New King James, contains vv. 9-20 because the King James used medieval manuscripts as the basis of its translation. Since 1611, however, older and more accurate manuscripts have been discovered and they affirm that vv. 9-20 were not in the original Gospel of Mark.

In addition, the fourth-century church fathers Eusebius and Jerome noted that almost all Greek manuscripts available to them lacked vv. 9–20, although they doubtless knew those other endings existed. In the second century, Justin Martyr and Tatian knew about other endings. Irenaeus, also, in A.D. 150 to 200, must have known about this long ending because he quotes verse 19 from it. So, the early church fathers knew of the added verses, but even by the fourth century, Eusebius said the Greek manuscripts did not include these endings in the originals.

The internal evidence from this passage also casts doubt on Mark as the author. For one thing, the transition between verses 8 and 9 is abrupt and awkward. The Greek word translated “now” that begins v. 9 should link it to what follows, as the use of the word “now” does in the other synoptic Gospels. However, what follows doesn’t continue the story of the women referred to in v. 8, describing instead Jesus’ appearing to Mary Magdalene. There’s no transition there, but rather an abrupt and bizarre change, lacking the continuity typical of Mark’s narrative. The author should be continuing the story of the women based on the word “now,” not jumping to the appearance to Mary Magdalene. Further, for Mark to introduce Mary Magdalene here as though for the very first time (v. 9) is odd because she had already been introduced in Mark’s narrative (Mark 15:40, 47, 16:1), another evidence that this section was not written by Mark.

Furthermore, the vocabulary is not consistent with Mark’s Gospel. These last verses don’t read like Mark’s. There are eighteen words here that are never used anywhere by Mark, and the structure is very different from the familiar structure of his writing. The title “Lord Jesus,” used in verse 19, is never used anywhere else by Mark. Also, the reference to signs in vv. 17-18 doesn’t appear in any of the four Gospels. In no account, post-resurrection of Jesus, is there any discussion of signs like picking up serpents, speaking with tongues, casting out demons, drinking poison, or laying hands on the sick. So, both internally and externally, this is foreign to Mark.

While the added ending offers no new information, nor does it contradict previously revealed events and/or doctrine, both the external and internal evidence make it quite certain that Mark did not write it. In reality, ending his Gospel in verse 8 with the description of the amazement of the women at the tomb is entirely consistent with the rest of the narrative. Amazement at the Lord Jesus seems to be a theme with Mark. “They were amazed at his teaching” (Mark 1:22); “They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves” (Mark 1:27); “He healed the paralytic, and they were all amazed and were glorifying God saying, ‘We’ve never seen anything like this’” (Mark 2:12). Astonishment at the work of Jesus is revealed throughout Mark’s narrative (Mark 4:41; 5:15, 33, 42; 6:51; 9:6, 15, 32; 10:24, 32; 11:18; 12:17; 16:5). Some, or even one, of the early scribes, however, apparently missed the thematic evidence and felt the need to add a more conventional ending.got?

hope this helps !!!

 

[marks]

Mark 16: 16-18:

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I'm not sure I understand how this answers my questions, was it intended to?

Much love!

 

[GTW27]

"IT is not walking as Jesus walked" It is walking with The Holy Spirit(The Lord) as One,( John 17) with Him at the helm. This is the more you are looking for. It is not found in other books. Walking in The Spirit is actually walking in Holiness, His Holiness. If the man in that book said He walked that way for ten years, then that man is a liar. It only takes looking at the wrong thing for just a second, to be in the flesh once again. A servant will never be above his master, but when he is fully trained, he will be like his master.

 

[Laurina]

I'm not sure I understand how this answers my questions, was it intended to?

Much love!

You asked me:

Do you believe/understand that being baptized into Christ you join Him in death, meaning you are also dead? Dead to sin and alive to God?

and when I saw believe and baptized my mind went to Mark 16:17 "and these signs shall follow them that believe..."
according to this verse, although I am baptized (water) and I "believe"....I guess I don't believe enough (Lord, help my unbelief) because in reality, these signs are not following me (yet).

The reason I ask is that there are two very different possible questions being asked, depending on what you believe.

So this sends alarm bells ringing in my head!!! depending on what I believe??? This needs clarification for me!

If you understand that your flesh remains to be crucified, then you will be asking, How do I crucify my flesh?

I have to go with the evidence that shows me that my flesh is not yet crucified. So, I ask God to bring me to the cross and He sends me a test, and I fail, I repent, ask again, and improve in some areas but ultimately fail my next test again....and this seems to be my pattern. Learning, but never coming to the knowledge of the Truth who is Christ. I do however, understand that I must deny my flesh, pick up my cross and follow Him. The target of denying my flesh keeps moving, and I can't seem to get a grip on it to deny it.....if that makes any sense.

If you understand that your flesh is crucified with Christ, then you will be asking, Why don't I live in agreement with that truth, and how do I?

My understanding here is that if your flesh is crucified with Christ in truth, not theory, you wouldn't have to ask, "Why don't I live in agreement with that truth, and how do I?"

still seeking....

 

[Laurina]

"IT is not walking as Jesus walked" It is walking with The Holy Spirit(The Lord) as One,( John 17) with Him at the helm. This is the more you are looking for. It is not found in other books. Walking in The Spirit is actually walking in Holiness, His Holiness. If the man in that book said He walked that way for ten years, then that man is a liar. It only takes looking at the wrong thing for just a second, to be in the flesh once again. A servant will never be above his master, but when he is fully trained, he will be like his master.

I don't understand how you can say that man is a liar? Please clarify.

 

[marks]

I have to go with the evidence that shows me that my flesh is not yet crucified.

This is why I like to begin with this passage in Romans in these discussions. Paul makes some fairly straightfoward statements here. Our walk is by faith, not be sight. May it be that when you believe this truth, that you will see it in your life?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The target of denying my flesh keeps moving, and I can't seem to get a grip on it to deny it.....if that makes any sense.

Colossians 2:20-23
(20) Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
(21) (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
(22) Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
(23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

This is an instance where I like looking at a different translation,

23 These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, pious self-denial, and severe bodily discipline. But they provide no help in conquering a person’s evil desires.

Much love!

 

[Lizbeth]

Ok, I'm back...sorry, family circumstances came first. So, I'm reading "Helps to Holiness" by Brengle and I'd like to discuss chapter 2....so I posted it if anyone is interested. (It is available on the internet as a pdf file) There are some things in it that I wish to discuss but to post just snippets of it wouldn't give the whole context. Some of you have already had issue with calling this a "second blessing"....that's what Brengle called it....some say it's not biblical....call it whatever, a deeper work, whatever, I don't want to get caught up with a "name", but more with the result of it. So here is chapter 2:

"CHAPTER II.
Holiness— How to Get it.
" My people perish for lack of knowledge" (Hosea iv. 6)
"This is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent” (John xvii. 3).
Said an old professor of over eighty years, in a certain holiness meeting; "I believe in holiness; but I don't think it is all got at once, as you people say. I believe we grow into it."
This is a very common mistake, second only to that which makes death the saviour from sin and the giver of holiness, and it is one which has kept tens of thousands out of the blessed experience. It does not recognise the exceeding sinfulness of sin,” (Rom. vii, 13) nor does it know the simple way of faith by which alone sin can be destroyed.
Entire sanctification is at once a process of subtraction and addition.
First, there are laid aside "all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speaking (1 Peter ii. 1); in fact, every evil temper and selfish desire that is unlike Christ, and the soul is cleansed. In the very nature of the case this cannot be by growth, for this cleansing takes something from the soul, while growth always adds something to it. The Bible says, “Now ye also put off all these—anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication.” (Col. iii. 8.) The Apostle talks as though a man were to put these off in much the same way as he would his coat. It is not by growth that a man puts off his coat, but by an active, voluntary, and immediate effort of his whole body. This is subtraction.
But the Apostle adds: “Put on, therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, long-suffering." (Col. iii. 12). No more does a man put on his coat by growth, but by a similar effort of his whole body.
A man may grow in his coat, but not into his coat; he must first get it on. Just so, a man may “grow in grace,” but not into grace. A man may swim in water, but not into water.
It is not by growth that you get the weeds out of your garden, but by pulling them up, and vigorously using
your hoe and rake.
It is not by growth that you expect that dirty little darling, who has been tumbling around with the dog and cat in the back yard, to get clean. He might grow to manhood, and get dirtier every day. It is by washing, and much pure water, that you expect to make him at all presentable. So the Bible says: “ Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood.” (Rev. i. 5) “ The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John i. 7).
Those facts were told to the old brother mentioned above, and he was asked if, after sixty years of Christian experience, he felt any nearer the priceless gift of a clean heart than when he first began to serve Christ. He honestly confessed that he did not.
He was asked if he did not think sixty years were quite long enough to prove the growth theory, if it were true. He thought they were, and so was asked to come forward and seek the blessing at once.
He did so, but did not get through that night, and the next night came forward again. He had scarcely knelt five minutes before he stood up, and, stretching out his arms, while the tears ran down his cheeks and his face glowed with Heaven's light, he cried out, "as the east is from the west, so far hath He removed my transgressions from me” (Ps. ciii. 12). For some time after, he lived to witness to both small and great this wondrous grace of God in Christ, and then went in triumph to the bosom of that God whom without holiness no man can see.

Ok, I'm back...sorry, family circumstances came first. So, I'm reading "Helps to Holiness" by Brengle and I'd like to discuss chapter 2....so I posted it if anyone is interested. (It is available on the internet as a pdf file) There are some things in it that I wish to discuss but to post just snippets of it wouldn't give the whole context. Some of you have already had issue with calling this a "second blessing"....that's what Brengle called it....some say it's not biblical....call it whatever, a deeper work, whatever, I don't want to get caught up with a "name", but more with the result of it. So here is chapter 2:

"CHAPTER II.
Holiness— How to Get it.
" My people perish for lack of knowledge" (Hosea iv. 6)
"This is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent” (John xvii. 3).
Said an old professor of over eighty years, in a certain holiness meeting; "I believe in holiness; but I don't think it is all got at once, as you people say. I believe we grow into it."
This is a very common mistake, second only to that which makes death the saviour from sin and the giver of holiness, and it is one which has kept tens of thousands out of the blessed experience. It does not recognise the exceeding sinfulness of sin,” (Rom. vii, 13) nor does it know the simple way of faith by which alone sin can be destroyed.
Entire sanctification is at once a process of subtraction and addition.
First, there are laid aside "all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speaking (1 Peter ii. 1); in fact, every evil temper and selfish desire that is unlike Christ, and the soul is cleansed. In the very nature of the case this cannot be by growth, for this cleansing takes something from the soul, while growth always adds something to it. The Bible says, “Now ye also put off all these—anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication.” (Col. iii. 8.) The Apostle talks as though a man were to put these off in much the same way as he would his coat. It is not by growth that a man puts off his coat, but by an active, voluntary, and immediate effort of his whole body. This is subtraction.
But the Apostle adds: “Put on, therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, long-suffering." (Col. iii. 12). No more does a man put on his coat by growth, but by a similar effort of his whole body.
A man may grow in his coat, but not into his coat; he must first get it on. Just so, a man may “grow in grace,” but not into grace. A man may swim in water, but not into water.
It is not by growth that you get the weeds out of your garden, but by pulling them up, and vigorously using
your hoe and rake.
It is not by growth that you expect that dirty little darling, who has been tumbling around with the dog and cat in the back yard, to get clean. He might grow to manhood, and get dirtier every day. It is by washing, and much pure water, that you expect to make him at all presentable. So the Bible says: “ Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood.” (Rev. i. 5) “ The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John i. 7).
Those facts were told to the old brother mentioned above, and he was asked if, after sixty years of Christian experience, he felt any nearer the priceless gift of a clean heart than when he first began to serve Christ. He honestly confessed that he did not.
He was asked if he did not think sixty years were quite long enough to prove the growth theory, if it were true. He thought they were, and so was asked to come forward and seek the blessing at once.
He did so, but did not get through that night, and the next night came forward again. He had scarcely knelt five minutes before he stood up, and, stretching out his arms, while the tears ran down his cheeks and his face glowed with Heaven's light, he cried out, "as the east is from the west, so far hath He removed my transgressions from me” (Ps. ciii. 12). For some time after, he lived to witness to both small and great this wondrous grace of God in Christ, and then went in triumph to the bosom of that God whom without holiness no man can see.

The concept of growth is all over the bible, and harvest is the culmination of growth. I don't think we can ignore that, especially when scriptures explicitly talks about "growing up into Christ who is the Head". And increasing. And adding to our faith...etc, etc...I mean growth is just everywhere spoken of. People do their best to understand and explain heavenly things, which can be hard to grasp, and put into words, so I don't want to be too quick to condemn or label someone a false teacher or false whatever....but everyone just doesn't always get their explanations right or quite right.

I don't know if I'm grasping it quite correctly either, but I do wonder whether what we're looking at with a second blessing is rather the culmination of growth, or maybe consummation of our faith....hence all the references to bride/groom and wedding feast etc......the finishing of our faith as much as it can be in this life while still in mortal bodies. Some verses that appear to have a historical corporate meaning for a future time, seems to me as though they might have a meaning on a personal individual level too. Anyway that passage in Ex. 21 about the bondslave appear to be depicting this 'consummation', and seems to agree well with what other scrips are showing. I don't know if you have had time to keep up with the thread..?

 

[Episkopos]

"IT is not walking as Jesus walked"

You have no biblical basis for this...quite the opposite.

1 John 2:6​

“He that says he abides in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”

It is walking with The Holy Spirit(The Lord) as One,( John 17) with Him at the helm. This is the more you are looking for. It is not found in other books. Walking in The Spirit is actually walking in Holiness, His Holiness.

That's right.

If the man in that book said He walked that way for ten years, then that man is a liar.

You have never known the higher walk....that is obvious. And to accuse a saint...well, you better be careful about accussing someone more faithful than yourself.

I walked that way (the spiritual walk in Zion) for 2.5 years before my lack of maturity caused me to fall from that grace. The keeping power of God is very real...very powerful...for those who enter INTO Christ. But the cost is very high...it costs us all...so the name it claim it crowd will never know it. Neither will the "instant gratification" crowd find it. Neither will anyone who seeks to save their life rather than lose it for His sake.

It only takes looking at the wrong thing for just a second, to be in the flesh once again.

A person who is led astray by one look has always been in the flesh.

If you want to understand holiness...you have to realize that being LED by the Spirit is not the same as walking IN the Spirit.

A servant will never be above his master, but when he is fully trained, he will be like his master.

Yes. But you are confusing the purity of holiness with the maturity it takes to RETAIN that level of purity.

 

[Laurina]

"IT is not walking as Jesus walked" It is walking with The Holy Spirit(The Lord) as One,( John 17) with Him at the helm.

Are you saying that Jesus didn't walk in the Spirit???

This is the more you are looking for. It is not found in other books.

What isn't found in other books?? The testimony of people walking in the Spirit is found in the New Testament as well as in other books written by or about the people who have this testimony.

Walking in The Spirit is actually walking in Holiness, His Holiness.

I agree with this! But, doesn't this contradict your previous statement? ...unless you think Jesus wasn't walking in His own holiness.

If the man in that book said He walked that way for ten years, then that man is a liar.

That's quite the accusation!!!

It only takes looking at the wrong thing for just a second, to be in the flesh once again.

Is that your testimony?? Are others limited to what you have experienced? Is there not more grace available from God that goes beyond what you have experienced??

A servant will never be above his master, but when he is fully trained, he will be like his master.

Yes, that's biblical.

 

[Laurina]

The concept of growth is all over the bible, and harvest is the culmination of growth. I don't think we can ignore that, especially when scriptures explicitly talks about "growing up into Christ who is the Head". And increasing. And adding to our faith...etc, etc...I mean growth is just everywhere spoken of. People do their best to understand and explain heavenly things, which can be hard to grasp, and put into words, so I don't want to be too quick to condemn or label someone a false teacher or false whatever....but everyone just doesn't always get their explanations right or quite right.

I don't know if I'm grasping it quite correctly either, but I do wonder whether what we're looking at with a second blessing is rather the culmination of growth, or maybe consummation of our faith....hence all the references to bride/groom and wedding feast etc......the finishing of our faith as much as it can be in this life while still in mortal bodies. Some verses that appear to have a historical corporate meaning for a future time, seems to me as though they might have a meaning on a personal individual level too. Anyway that passage in Ex. 21 about the bondslave appear to be depicting this 'consummation', and seems to agree well with what other scrips are showing. I don't know if you have had time to keep up with the thread..?

Hi Lizbeth....no, I haven't had time to keep up the the thread....I have to read the pages between my posts.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes. But you are confusing the purity of holiness with the maturity it takes to RETAIN that level of purity.

I don't agree with your take on that. You first of all need to reach a level of maturity through growth. And then how can someone "ungrow" what has been grown up into. BUT you CAN fall away. Like Balaam is an example, whose gifting had gone to his head and then he began to use it for his own gain. That's when things start to go awry and deception and error begins to set in and take on a growth of its own.....and that is even God's judgment. But I would like to believe the potential for repentance is always possible this side of the grave, although, then again I don't know for sure because of the scripture which says if you have tasted the heavenly things and fall away it is impossible to renew to repentance. (Think that's why there is no repentance possible for the angels that fell.) Oh my...is this the lesson that Esau depicts? Help us o Lord to always fear you!

 

[Laurina]

The concept of growth is all over the bible, and harvest is the culmination of growth. I don't think we can ignore that, especially when scriptures explicitly talks about "growing up into Christ who is the Head". And increasing. And adding to our faith...etc, etc...I mean growth is just everywhere spoken of. People do their best to understand and explain heavenly things, which can be hard to grasp, and put into words, so I don't want to be too quick to condemn or label someone a false teacher or false whatever....but everyone just doesn't always get their explanations right or quite right.

I don't know if I'm grasping it quite correctly either, but I do wonder whether what we're looking at with a second blessing is rather the culmination of growth, or maybe consummation of our faith....hence all the references to bride/groom and wedding feast etc......the finishing of our faith as much as it can be in this life while still in mortal bodies. Some verses that appear to have a historical corporate meaning for a future time, seems to me as though they might have a meaning on a personal individual level too. Anyway that passage in Ex. 21 about the bondslave appear to be depicting this 'consummation', and seems to agree well with what other scrips are showing. I don't know if you have had time to keep up with the thread..?

(I haven't caught up yet), but yes, the concept of growth is all over the Bible, however, don't exclude this concept:

Jeremiah 1:10 King James Version (KJV)
See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.

I have a garden, so I understand the "to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down" all needs to happen BEFORE "to build, and to plant." ...so that growth can actually happen!! Otherwise you'll have a jungle!!

 

[GTW27]

I don't understand how you can say that man is a liar? Please clarify.

Blessings Laurina. I am a man, even though I am not worthy, that walks in The Spirit as The Lord wills. I also preach in The Spirit as The Lord wills. This is all The Holy Spirits doing as I step aside willingly. It is about souls. The gifts are also present as He is present. All Glory belongs to Him, not me, for I am nothing. When walking in The Spirit, it is The Lord leading as He wills not me. The rest of the time I am in the flesh with my eyes still focused on the Lord.(I try) But I am in this world but not of it. But because I am in the world I have experienced going from being in The Spirit to being in the flesh simply from looking up and seeing a woman not dressed enough. One wrong thought is all it takes. But when walking in The Spirit(Him at the helm) it is impossible to fulfill the lust of the flesh as The Lord is Holy and has overcome this world. He was here in the flesh without sin, without one impure thought, and He walked in the mist of His creation. I tell you today that the promises that Jesus gave us (Christians) are possible but it is when and how He chooses. We simply believe(have faith), trust Him, and let go and let God. And be thankful for all things! Blessings.

 

[Laurina]

(I haven't caught up yet), but yes, the concept of growth is all over the Bible, however, don't exclude this concept:

Jeremiah 1:10 King James Version (KJV)
See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.

I have a garden, so I understand the "to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down" all needs to happen BEFORE "to build, and to plant." ...so that growth can actually happen!! Otherwise you'll have a jungle!!

In the New Testiment there's a "mortify" (Col. 3:5), a "put off" (Col 3:8) BEFORE a "put on" (Col. 3:10). This is all so that we can grow!!!

Hosea says: (10:12)

Sow righteousness for yourselves,
reap the fruit of unfailing love,
and break up your unplowed ground;
for it is time to seek the Lord,
until he comes
and showers his righteousness on you

Again, for growth!! Like Brengle says in Chapter 2

"It is not by growth that you get the weeds out of your garden, but by pulling them up, and vigorously using
your hoe and rake."


I like this: break up your unplowed ground; for it is time to seek the Lord,

It's hard work to break up the ground!!! and also hard to keep the weeds out....then there is the animals!!!

These are my quick thoughts on the concept of growth, but I suppose I need to go back and catch up on what I missed.

 

[Laurina]

Blessings Laurina. I am a man, even though I am not worthy, that walks in The Spirit as The Lord wills. I also preach in The Spirit as The Lord wills. This is all The Holy Spirits doing as I step aside willingly. It is about souls. The gifts are also present as He is present. All Glory belongs to Him, not me, for I am nothing. When walking in The Spirit, it is The Lord leading as He wills not me. The rest of the time I am in the flesh with my eyes still focused on the Lord.(I try) But I am in this world but not of it. But because I am in the world I have experienced going from being in The Spirit to being in the flesh simply from looking up and seeing a woman not dressed enough. One wrong thought is all it takes. But when walking in The Spirit(Him at the helm) it is impossible to fulfill the lust of the flesh as The Lord is Holy and has overcome this world. He was here in the flesh without sin, without one impure thought, and He walked in the mist of His creation. I tell you today that the promises that Jesus gave us (Christians) are possible but it is when and how He chooses. We simply believe(have faith), trust Him, and let go and let God. And be thankful for all things! Blessings.

I appreciate your answer but this doesn't clarify you calling the man a liar!! Are you saying this man is subject to your weaknesses?? (It was 100plus years ago, so the women didn't dress the same then as now). Could that be the difference???

 

[Lizbeth]

(I haven't caught up yet), but yes, the concept of growth is all over the Bible, however, don't exclude this concept:

Jeremiah 1:10 King James Version (KJV)
See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.

I have a garden, so I understand the "to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down" all needs to happen BEFORE "to build, and to plant." ...so that growth can actually happen!! Otherwise you'll have a jungle!!

Amen. Speaking of strongholds. And in a more general way, I think we can equate that with dying to ourselves, the Lord tearing down our old man of the flesh. Other analogies include "break up your fallow ground and sow not among thorns"....have to prepare the soil and get rid of all the old growth of debris and thorns (God does His part, and also repentance is our part in breaking up our fallow ground) before re-planting and building back up (Jer. 4 and Hos 10).

 

[Lizbeth]

I don't agree with your take on that. You first of all need to reach a level of maturity through growth. And then how can someone "ungrow" what has been grown up into. BUT you CAN fall away. Like Balaam is an example, whose gifting had gone to his head and then he began to use it for his own gain. That's when things start to go awry and deception and error begins to set in and take on a growth of its own.....and that is even God's judgment. But I would like to believe the potential for repentance is always possible this side of the grave, although, then again I don't know for sure because of the scripture which says if you have tasted the heavenly things and fall away it is impossible to renew to repentance. (Think that's why there is no repentance possible for the angels that fell.) Oh my...is this the lesson that Esau depicts? Help us o Lord to always fear you!

Actually there is some hope for Esau after all, and I'm glad for it, because I have truly always hated sad endings! :) Not to regain the double portion inheritance of the first born, even though he sought that with tears, but at least in his heartfelt repentance he received some blessing from his father and we can see that he wasn't destroyed by God...he went on to live and eventually even reconciled with the brother who had received the double portion birthright.

 

[Episkopos]

I don't agree with your take on that. You first of all need to reach a level of maturity through growth.

No one can grow INTO holiness. You can only fall FROM grace. The maturity of a carnal walk is not the same as a maturity in a holy walk. Since you don't actually believe in the higher walk that is in holiness....because of unbelief you will not enter in... you are stuck in a religious circular walk in your own strength. Maybe at times you will hear something from God. Just like the Israelites in the wilderness.

And then how can someone "ungrow" what has been grown up into.

You are confusing maturity and purity. A person who is clean can become dirty. Don't you take periodic showers...even as you get older and "wiser". Why conflate the 2?

BUT you CAN fall away. Like Balaam is an example, whose gifting had gone to his head and then he began to use it for his own gain. That's when things start to go awry and deception and error begins to set in and take on a growth of its own.....and that is even God's judgment.

Exactly. Those who are born again can easily turn aside to a human understanding and try "growing" themselves into the Promised land. But what has begun in the Spirit (if it truly has done so) can only be fulfilled by Christ Himself. He is both the author AND finisher of our faith...until it becomes HIS faith we walk in...in the higher walk in the Spirit....the kingdom walk.

But I would like to believe the potential for repentance is always possible this side of the grave,

We must count on that. As long as we breathe through our lungs there is a chance that carnal believers will turn to God for His full measure of grace...to be filled with the very fulness of God

although, then again I don't know for sure because of the scripture which says if you have tasted the heavenly things and fall away it is impossible to renew to repentance. (Think that's why there is no repentance possible for the angels that fell.) Oh my...is this the lesson that Esau depicts? Help us o Lord to always fear you!

God decides when we have crossed the line of no return. Fear the Lord and repent from your carnal version of Christianity that has no power except to puff up the flesh...over what is of Christ.