Christianity requires fear, guilt, and conformity

[FlySwatter]

Sorry but I am not conversant with idea that a baby is an it.

He didn't say baby. He said fetus. It doesn't become a baby for many weeks after conception.

 

[Naomanos]

The question is what is your acceptance criteria? I appeal to you as a reasonable and educated person. As the Bible says @ Isaiah 1:18, "Let us reason together."

Recently, I've been studying the controversial historical figure, General Douglas MacArthur. In answering the question should he have been fired for insubordination, one must develop or establish a pass/fail criteria. Answering one way or the other with no foundation, refusing to acknowledge facts contrary to your unfounded answer and then not even express what your pass/fail criteria is, is not a mature, deliberate assessment of the inquiry before you.

In my study of MacArthur, I learned a lot about him prior to this event, which occurred very late in his life. (He was about 71 when it happened). Like most things in life, his story is rich in context. How did you arrive at your conclusion (what is your pass/fail criteria) is a reasonable question. Given that we disagree - and presuming we are reasonable people - there is either a discrepancy about the facts or the standard by which those facts are judged. Right now, your post just seem petulant and I'm giving you the chance to bolster the validity of your denial.

Believe as you wish. I am not required to continue to engage with you if I so choose. Call me immature, call me petulant, call me whatever you wish to call me. I honestly do not care what a random person on the internet calls me or thinks of me.

You believe that this is a Christian nation, and I will continue to believe it isn't. My position doesn't nothing to harm you and your position does nothing to harm me.

 

[FlySwatter]

Something relevant to the on-going discussion about Christian Nationalism in the USA

Some recent surveys. An interesting read.

3. Views of the U.S. as a ‘Christian nation’ and opinions about ‘Christian nationalism’

Most Americans think the founders of America intended for the U.S. to be a “Christian nation,” more than four-in-ten think the United States should be a

www.pewresearch.org

Snippets:

Only 33% of USA adults think the USA is currently a Christian Nation. 64% don't think it is.

45% of them think it should be a Christian Nation, whereas 51% think not.

There appears to be massive confusion among people as to what a "Christian Nation" actually means and what it should affect

54% of adults haven't even heard of or read about Christian Nationalism

Nearly a quarter (24%) of all adults have an unfavourable view of Christian Nationalism

 

[Wrangler]

around the 8th week of pregnancy is where the brain has begun to develop.

Thanks for your straight forward answer.

I don't personally get too hung up on the specific time

Doesn't that contradict above?

I simply and rationally accept that for a number of weeks after conception all you really have is a developing organism with no brain or nervous system and therefore not a human being with rights.

I agree those who are incapable of making reason based decision, including those in a coma, do not have rights by definition. It seems to me you are skipping over a fundamental truth. The "developing organism" IS a living human being.

1. Living human being without rights
2. Human being with rights.

The race baiters have got people skittish about proclaiming people have no rights and often skip over this special class of people. It's just a human being with the no capacity to exercise its rights (yet). And again, this "age of majority" is not 8 weeks from conception but 18 to 25 years old. From conception to when they reach the age of majority, the living human being is a special class, a ward.

Normally, these class are wards of the parents. But this does not mean the parents have some kind of right to kill their wards.

It's a very personal choice to make and it should always be her choice up to that cut off point of around 8 weeks.

I could accept that as a compromise. I know the pro-abortion crowed cannot tolerate any restrictions on baby killing.

However, there is something very wrong, very sick about a society who feels it appropriate to kill people in reaction to facing an inconvenience, undesired consequences of their choices.

 

[Wrangler]

Call me immature, call me petulant

You got it!

 

[Romanov2488]

Sorry but I am not conversant with idea that a baby is an it.

Is a pile of dough a loaf of bread?

 

[Romanov2488]

I realize you are stubbornly holding to a false believe. Again, I ask what set of facts would convince you that America is a Christian nation? What would have to happen for you to acknowledge the culture of America, the people and its government are Christian?

Those are just your Taliban-like tendencies talking where they seek to preserve the Islamic State. This is not the Christian State, this is America. The Constitution makes no reference to God, get over it. John Adams equated morality with religion which he equated to “just being good”, not organized religion. Even the establishment clause creates a clear separation between church and state.

You ought to be more grateful that you’re not in North Korea where you would be persecuted for being Christian.

 

[FlySwatter]

Thanks for your straight forward answer.

Doesn't that contradict above?

Nope. It simply means it might be 8 weeks to 12 weeks or around about then. I'm not too bothered which it is.

I agree those who are incapable of making reason based decision, including those in a coma, do not have rights by definition. It seems to me you are skipping over a fundamental truth. The "developing organism" IS a living human being.

1. Living human being without rights
2. Human being with rights.

Your "fundamental truth" is sadly not a truth at all. It's actually a falsehood of fundamentalists !

A human being needs a brain. Without one you simply do not have a human being. You have a shell, a "doll", a wax work.

You mentioned people in a coma. Let's expand that and consider totally brain dead people who are being kept alive on a life support machine with absolutely no hope of recovery. Those people are no longer human beings. They are flesh and blood forms which have no brain, no sentience, no functioning. Same as dead people.

You're still clinging to this desperate schtick of trying to call a developing organism a "baby" or "human being" which is simply false but is needed by the anti-choice brigade to try and appeal to emotion in people who haven't made their minds up on the issue of abortion. It is at best scientifically and medically incorrect and at worse pure divisive psychology used to promote an agenda.

A fertilised egg, a zygote, a blastocyst, an organism with no brain, IS NOT A BABY or a human being nor ever will be.

You would do well to be honest about this for outside of that early stage of pregnancy, once there is actually a baby in the womb I have sympathy with the anti-abortion cause.

However, there is something very wrong, very sick about a society who feels it appropriate to kill people in reaction to facing an inconvenience, undesired consequences of their choices.

Again what we are talking about is not "people" and so your point is meaningless. Removing an organism from your body is like removing an appendix and there's no reason why someone should not choose to do so.

When it develops into a baby then things change.

Before then, neither you nor anyone else has any right to say what a woman does with her own body.

 

[FlySwatter]

Let's try and tease this out properly

What distinguishes a "human being" from something which is "part of a human being"?

For example is a big toe a human being? Or is it part of a human being?

If it is not an actual human being then why not?

 

[Romanov2488]

Let’s get to the meat and potatoes here: Why are fundamentalist Christians really against abortion?

Is it all because to them it’s a sin and it’s murder? I think not. I think the real reason Christians oppose abortion is because it allows for less people to indoctrinate/pass religion down to. Religion is largely passed down through procreation. And in that way, it’s very similar to circumcision. If you wait until someone’s 24 to tell them about it, they probably won’t be interested. Let’s also look at the fact that fundamentalist Christians oppose contraception. Let’s give them the benefit of the doubt that abortion really IS murder. Then why do many also oppose contraception? Surely throwing a tissue away with kids on it cannot be murder. What is their REAL agenda here?

 

[Wrangler]

Again, I ask what set of facts would convince you that America is a Christian nation? What would have to happen for you to acknowledge the culture of America, the people and its government are Christian?

The Constitution makes no reference to God, get over it.

OK. So, your acceptance criteria is ONLY if the Constitution makes reference to God are we a Christian nation. Great! Cause guess what? The Constitution references God, not just once but TWICE.

1. Under Signatory: Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven. Who is the Lord of the Founding Fathers upon which the Constitution was consecrated? Jesus Christ.
2. 1st Amendment ... Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Because where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Freedom, 2 Corinthians 3:17.

Thanks and Amen! Praise God.

 

[Wrangler]

A human being needs a brain.

This is your invented standard to rationalize sacrificing children to Baal.

 

[Wrangler]

A fertilised egg, a zygote, a blastocyst, an organism with no brain, IS NOT A BABY or a human being nor ever will be.

Will never be? You are self-deceived. Babies do develop a brain and the capacity to choose. They just need time. This is different than your desperate claim that they are dehumanized and are incapable of ever having a brain. You are just playing word games.

If we call the baby a fertilised egg, a zygote, a blastocyst it is still a living human with human DNA.

 

[Wrangler]

You would do well to be honest about this for outside of that early stage of pregnancy, once there is actually a baby in the womb I have sympathy with the anti-abortion cause.

Again, you are denying test tube babies exist.

 

[Wrangler]

Again what we are talking about is not "people" and so your point is meaningless.

There you go again, sadly dehumanizing people who have a temporary disability.

 

[FlySwatter]

This is your invented standard to rationalize sacrificing children to Baal.

No it's science and medical fact. Have you ever met a human being without a brain?!!

By suggesting a human being doesn't need to have a brain you're the inventing your own standard. 99.9999% of people on this planet would agree that a body without a brain is not a human being. It's just a body.

 

[Wrangler]

No it's science and medical fact.

<sigh> A person without a brain is not a different species. Your claim of it being science and a medical fact is plain wrong. You just keep making up your own standard. From human

human​

adjective​

US /ˈhjuː.mən/ UK /ˈhjuː.mən/​

​

B1​

being, relating to, or belonging to a person or to people as opposed to animals:​

​

having the qualities, faults, and feelings that people have, as opposed to gods, animals, or machines:​

Notice how it does not say as opposed to a baby?

Have you ever met a human being without a brain?!!

Frequently, especially online. Maybe they are bots.

 

[FlySwatter]

Will never be? You are self-deceived. Babies do develop a brain and the capacity to choose.

You're getting confused again.

A fertilised egg, a human organism, develops a brain over time as well as a heart and nervous system and thereby becomes a baby, a human being with the capacity to choose. There is no "baby" without a brain. There is only an organism.

They just need time. This is different than your desperate claim that they are dehumanized and are incapable of ever having a brain.

I've never stated they are incapable of ever having a brain. What a strange thing to claim!

Here's what I said:

"A fertilised egg, a zygote, a blastocyst, an organism with no brain, IS NOT A BABY or a human being nor ever will be."

Perhaps I need to say it in a different way for you to make it easier to understand.

It's not saying that a fertilised egg will never grow a brain. It absolutely will grow a brain after maybe 8-12 weeks of development.

What I am saying is that until it does grow a brain, it remains just an organism, not a "baby", not a "human being". It is just a human organism with human DNA, an organism of human species, just like an appendix.

You are just playing word games.

No I am absolutely not. YOU are the one appealing to word games by constantly and falsely trying to claim that a fertilised egg is a baby. It is no such thing. It WILL eventually become a baby. But it is not itself a baby until that happens.

If we call the baby a fertilised egg, a zygote, a blastocyst it is still a living human with human DNA.

Attempting to reword the same falsehoods over and over gets the discussion nowhere.

"Living human" ?

Word games

A "human" i.e. NOUN means a human being which is a life form of species Homo Sapiens and which HAS A BRAIN and other requisite parts (heart, nervous system etc).

It doesn't matter what desperate terminology you attempt to label the human organism as for emotional effect, it is still just a human organism for the first 8-12 weeks. It has no brain, no hart, no nervous system. It can not therefore be said to be:

- a "baby"
- a "human being"
- a "human" (noun)

It CAN be said to be:

- a human organism
- An organism with human DNA
- An organism of species Homo Sapiens
- One or more basic parts of a human being but not enough parts to actually be a human being

This is all so very basic.

The appalling and disingenuous appeals to emotion using divisive and false terminology to describe an organism by the anti-abortion anti-choice brigade are simply wicked and used to support an agenda of control, a cult of intolerance that seeks to stamp out basic rights of adult women. It's really horrible.

 

[FlySwatter]

Again, you are denying test tube babies exist.

I've never once mentioned "test tube babies" !!

 

[Wrangler]

There is no "baby" without a brain. There is only an organism.

Word games. The baby is human from the start. It does not become human. It becomes a human with a brain.