Christianity requires fear, guilt, and conformity

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Romanov2488

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How many people would be Christian if Hell wasn’t a concept in Christianity? Now I know many Christians would argue, “Hell is a consequence, it’s like having consequences in day to day life.” And this is where I disagree: while consequences are real in the world, it is a much different matter when it comes to the spiritual world.

Christians don’t like it when their god or concept of hell gets mocked because they want it to be taken seriously by others. They want others to feel guilty and in need of forgiveness the way they do. They claim that the solution to all of this is that in return one is “saved” once they repent and accept Jesus as their savior. And here is the kicker: EVEN when Christians repent and accept Jesus as their savior, many are STILL afraid of hell because they don’t know if they have been doing the right thing all along. They know that the possibility of merely “thinking” they are saved exists. To arrogantly proclaim that one is “saved”, can also be arrogantly dismissed.

However, Christians may argue that it is possible to know God exists through personal experience. But this starts to delve into mysticism which many Christians say goes against the Biblical authority. Simply experiencing God is not enough, one has to mentally know that God exists through biblical authority…so that gets rid of the personal experience argument.

This need for Christians to preach the gospel, is seen as “spreading the truth” in their eyes. It doesn’t matter to them if others say it’s bigoted or hateful or even if they get persecuted for it. They know that they are living in a time where they are becoming a minority in society since society has widely accepted views that are unbiblical and “demonic” in their eyes. They see it as if society needs people like them to warn them of hell, in hopes of waking society “up”. The problem for them is that the opposite has been happening.

One example I hear from Christians regarding their spreading of the gospel is their gripe with the “love is love” mentality of society. Christians think this has gone too far because “not all forms of love are right since one can love the wrong object”, such as a man loving another man. But how do we know that Christians themselves haven’t gone too far with spreading the gospel? Because here’s the thing: other religions do horrific things disguised as “doing the right thing”. Take the jihadist suicide bombers, for example. To them it’s no more a religious act like it is for a Christian to go out into the street with a picket sign saying that all homosexuals will burn in hell. Some may say this is a false equivalence, but is it? There are consequences for hate speech in society, as well as verbal threats already. They know they’re facing an uphill battle and I don’t see “being in the minority” necessarily as a virtue, either.

Since Christians want to hold that hell is real and everyone should feel guilty enough to repent, then the mockery of their hell should continue going on. Just like Christians believe we need to continue hearing about how we will burn in hell if we don’t repent, maybe they need to continue hearing about how their faith is all about guilt and conformity. Hell will continue being a reality to them, but that doesn’t mean it’s going to be a reality for everyone else.

The framework of Christianity boils down to this: anyone who disagrees or rebels against their god or Bible, is satanic.
Those who disagree with us/the Bible=bad guys
Those who agree with us=good guys
 

Lapidem

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It's just a clever psychological system of control using fear and scaremongering (abuse) as a way to create converts and keep them in line. All the while they hide the real truth from the flock (assuming they actually know it).
 

Romanov2488

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It's just a clever psychological system of control using fear and scaremongering (abuse) as a way to create converts and keep them in line. All the while they hide the real truth from the flock (assuming they actually know it).
They want to be taken seriously, they want people to take their Bible and the reality of hell seriously. And anyone who scoffs at it or mocks it, is met with this animosity of “You laugh now but you will see! You’re going to regret it and it will be too late!” Then they turn around and say “No no, I am telling you this because I love you. When you love someone, you want them to hear the truth.” That’s gaslighting at its finest. That’s like an abusive spouse blaming their spouse for their own actions. “Oh well you made me do it, you wouldn’t shut up!”

Look, we all make mistakes. You and I have both felt sorry for something at one point and it was all very organic and within context at the time. But for someone random (a Christian) to want you to feel sorry due to what two other people (Adam & Eve) did and that someone came down and paid it all with blood on a cross or else you have to face eternal damnation if you don’t feel sorry, sounds a lot like someone is trying to coerce me. I have found that if I put myself in a Christian’s shoes, I can understand them. At some point some other Christian told them the same thing or they were searching for meaning and picked up a Bible and then for years and years their entire identity has revolved around guilt tripping themselves to the point of asking for forgiveness in order to be saved. Maybe THAT saved them from some drug they might have been addicted to or other terrible moment in their life at the time. But that doesn’t mean that there’s also a hell somewhere to which that extends to. It’s as if you’ve scared yourself out of ever smoking meth again, but now there’s also a hell that exists somewhere from which you need to be saved from.

It’s as if becoming a Christian almost always follows some sort of low point or traumatic event. No one who is already happy and fulfilled is gonna go, “Oh yeah that sounds like a good idea. Let me feel sorry and ask for forgiveness so I that I can be saved from this hell you’re talking about.”
 

Matthias

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True Christianity requires hearing and responding to the gospel which Jesus preached.
 

Philip James

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The framework of Christianity boils down to this: anyone who disagrees or rebels against their god or Bible, is satanic.
Those who disagree with us/the Bible=bad guys
Those who agree with us=good guys

Hello Romanov.

I reject your conclusion here that Christianity boils down to this. Are you interested in an actual rational conversation about the Faith? I would be willing, if we were to do so respectively and with the intent to at least consider each others statements..

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!
 

Lapidem

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True Christianity requires hearing and responding to the gospel which Jesus preached.

It also requires the special understanding of the allegorical language Jesus deliberately used to prevent people knowing the "mysteries of the kingdom". Without the "eyes to see" that Jesus spoke of, you can not hope to understand the message he brought and will not come to find the most important thing that you need to eat and drink in order for you to have life within you. The bulk of Christianity is a mass of ignorant people who don't have the "eyes to see" and who have merely joined a comfortable social club either because they are lonely or because they have succumbed to the appalling psychological abuse and scaremongering of the religion and its indoctrinated fanatics. They have traded rational thinking and objective analysis for the comfort of social interaction, a need to belong to something and belief in the fairy stories that come with it.

Jesus was very clear in what he said but it's only clear if you understand the language he used and what he was really talking about. Most Christians are clueless of both.
 

amadeus

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With the ears to hear and the eyes to see of which Jesus spoke, what else would be needed?
Where and how does one get these?
 

amadeus

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Then as Jesus warned you in no uncertain terms, you have no life in you.

John 6:53
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you"

Tick tock
What is his flesh and what is his blood? For me that of which I partake everyday.

Joh 6:55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him

Is not his flesh the Word and his blood the Spirit which quickens [brings to Life] in within us?
2co 3:5Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
2co 3:6Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
 

amadeus

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The "flesh" is the White Stone of alchemy
The "blood" is the Red Stone of alchemy

Consider the Spirit being the Blood of Jesus. In the OT especially in the Book of Leviticus it is made clear that life is in the blood, but that is speaking of carnal animals [and people] having physical life. It was a type or shadow of the real Life which was given up in Eden, but brought back by Jesus. Jesus came as a physical man with physical blood and he shed that blood on the cross, but he also shed something on the following day of Pentecost [Acts 2] that no physical man had, the Spirit. Men had spirit, but it was corrupted with no real Life in it. Men with only the red blood of the body were effectively dead [in the eyes of God]. Jesus came to change that. He did not do it with by sharing with us the red blood of his also corruptible [corruptible, but NOT corrupted] body of flesh. The real Life lost in the Garden was and is the Spirit.

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Revelation 7:14,


So the Blood of the Lamb makes no one red, but rather White.
Consider Esau [rough] who was called Edom [red] because he ate of the red pottage made by Jacob in exchange for his birthright.
Did not Jesus bring us something better than red pottage? How about robes made white by his Blood? How does this relate to this verse:

"But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion." Joel 3:20-21

In the natural we might believe that this was a sorting out of the mixed bloodlines of the natural Israelites [see Ezra 9:2-3 where Ezra was so upset he pulled out his own beard.] This may be right, but could this not also be simply a type or shadow of the double mindedness of Christian believers? What is Zion? One Hebrew derivation of the word means "dry or barren land". That is what every one of us were before we received Life from Jesus. Spiritually, we effectively had no (White] Blood (Spirit) in us. We were dead. Jesus said, "Let the dead bury their dead" [Matt 8:22]. Apostle Paul writes:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6
 
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amadeus

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I have simply understood the ecryptic and alleorical message that runs through the bible and which similarly rruns through the Quran and the Baghavad Gita and many other places. The same message of the Stone. I don't consider God in the same way that you do. God is not a Santa Claus type figure. I don't even choose to use the term god because the term is now so inextricably associated with the rather silly concept of the Christian deity. That which is the true source of the universe or life in the universe is imho nothing like that which is peddled by the Church. Jesus had the Stone(s) and thus had access to immense amounts of energy and the knowledge of how to transmute energy.
We are in disagreement. I stand on Apostle Paul's written words which state in effect that only God gives us any real increase. I won't argue the point and it seems that we are too far apart to accomplish much with discussion. Have a blessed day!
 

amadeus

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The tale of the Garden and Adam and Eve is allegorical. The tale recounts that the Stone or "Tree Of Life" was needed to gain immortality and that it had to be eaten to gain this benefit.

Genesis 2
22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...”
The Tree of Life, I believe to be Jesus. Again, we are too far apart on too many things to have an effective discussion. You apparently have faith in things about which I have little or no knowledge. Those things amount to me as faith in men. My faith is in God and His son, Jesus. Have a good day.
 

Lapidem

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The Tree of Life, I believe to be Jesus.

Jesus didn't arrive until many years after Genesis

Yet Genesis speaks of the Tree Of Life

You presumably don't believe Jesus is an actual tree with fruit yes?

Then you must also concede that Genesis and the story of Adam, Eve and Eden are not literal but rather allegorical
 

Angelina

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How many people would be Christian if Hell wasn’t a concept in Christianity? Now I know many Christians would argue, “Hell is a consequence, it’s like having consequences in day to day life.” And this is where I disagree: while consequences are real in the world, it is a much different matter when it comes to the spiritual world.

Christians don’t like it when their god or concept of hell gets mocked because they want it to be taken seriously by others. They want others to feel guilty and in need of forgiveness the way they do. They claim that the solution to all of this is that in return one is “saved” once they repent and accept Jesus as their savior. And here is the kicker: EVEN when Christians repent and accept Jesus as their savior, many are STILL afraid of hell because they don’t know if they have been doing the right thing all along. They know that the possibility of merely “thinking” they are saved exists. To arrogantly proclaim that one is “saved”, can also be arrogantly dismissed.

However, Christians may argue that it is possible to know God exists through personal experience. But this starts to delve into mysticism which many Christians say goes against the Biblical authority. Simply experiencing God is not enough, one has to mentally know that God exists through biblical authority…so that gets rid of the personal experience argument.

This need for Christians to preach the gospel, is seen as “spreading the truth” in their eyes. It doesn’t matter to them if others say it’s bigoted or hateful or even if they get persecuted for it. They know that they are living in a time where they are becoming a minority in society since society has widely accepted views that are unbiblical and “demonic” in their eyes. They see it as if society needs people like them to warn them of hell, in hopes of waking society “up”. The problem for them is that the opposite has been happening.

One example I hear from Christians regarding their spreading of the gospel is their gripe with the “love is love” mentality of society. Christians think this has gone too far because “not all forms of love are right since one can love the wrong object”, such as a man loving another man. But how do we know that Christians themselves haven’t gone too far with spreading the gospel? Because here’s the thing: other religions do horrific things disguised as “doing the right thing”. Take the jihadist suicide bombers, for example. To them it’s no more a religious act like it is for a Christian to go out into the street with a picket sign saying that all homosexuals will burn in hell. Some may say this is a false equivalence, but is it? There are consequences for hate speech in society, as well as verbal threats already. They know they’re facing an uphill battle and I don’t see “being in the minority” necessarily as a virtue, either.

Since Christians want to hold that hell is real and everyone should feel guilty enough to repent, then the mockery of their hell should continue going on. Just like Christians believe we need to continue hearing about how we will burn in hell if we don’t repent, maybe they need to continue hearing about how their faith is all about guilt and conformity. Hell will continue being a reality to them, but that doesn’t mean it’s going to be a reality for everyone else.

The framework of Christianity boils down to this: anyone who disagrees or rebels against their god or Bible, is satanic.
Those who disagree with us/the Bible=bad guys
Those who agree with us=good guys
I disagree with your premise that knowing God through personal experiences draws you into mysticism. Without those personal encounters, it is hard for believers to just believe and accept the salvation message ( taking into account of course: revelation by grace through faith).

Throughout generations, mankind had personal relationships with God prior to the bible being written. The bible reveals to us how those encounters played out.

I had a personal encounter with God when I was a child. He made himself real to me through various miraculous events. I did not initially get to know him through his written word but I knew that he was real by his saving grace and divine encounters in my life.

This did not include knowing anything about hell. Something that I learned later on down the track. :My2c:
 
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amadeus

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Like these words?

1 Corinthians 15:50-53

"I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the
imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in
the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable,
and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality"

Alchemy. Allegorically talking about the Great Work.

Change, putrefaction to purification, removing the gross, raising the substance to the highest level.

Requiring a salt which is imperishable, impervious to fire. A salt to be found in the gross matter of the substance used in the Great Work and revealed by repeated washings and calcinations.


1 Corinthians 10

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Christ is another name for the Stone
More like this...
1co 3:6I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1co 3:7So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
 

amadeus

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Jesus didn't arrive until many years after Genesis

Yet Genesis speaks of the Tree Of Life

You presumably don't believe Jesus is an actual tree with fruit yes?

Then you must also concede that Genesis and the story of Adam, Eve and Eden are not literal but rather allegorical
God is not bound by human logic nor constrained by time. You do not live by faith in God so you miss my point...