This world and the wicked are going up in a puff of smoke when Jesus come - thus negating Premil

[WPM]

Already did.

Which post?

 

[Timtofly]

I didn't think you would address them. You cannot. To do so would make you an Amil.

You don't respond even when I answer them. You just keep accusing me of avoidance or nonsense. Answering questions would not make me turn against God's Word and become Amil.

 

[St. Joseph]

There is a constant tension throughout the New Testament in regard to the imperfection of this age and the perfection of the age to come, the temporal nature of our current age and the eternal character of the age to come. Scripture deals a lot with the imperfection and suffering of this age and this world and is particularly highlighting the fact that this creation is not what God designed it to be. The theme is both consistent and well-defined.

But when Jesus comes He removes the old temporal corrupt arrangement and replaces it with a new perfect eternal arrangement. He will destroy anyone that does not belong to Him. He is coming to resurrect man, judge man, exercise perfect judgment, reward every man according to his works, glorify the redeemed and glorify all creation. He is introducing perfection forever. He will introduce a totally righteous and just arrangement devoid of all rebellion.

Job testified in Job 14:12-14, “So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.”

Job is (by his own confession) including himself in the resurrection in view. He clearly identifies the great hope of the resurrection of the dead (which expressly here includes himself – an Old Testament saint) and places it at the time when the heavens (and therefore the current earth) pass away and consequently witness the appearance of the New Jerusalem at the last day. The word translated “till” here is the Hebrew word ad that is consistently interpreted “unto” or “even unto” elsewhere throughout the Old Testament. Therefore, we can rightly understand this passage as saying: “So man lieth down, and riseth not: even unto the heavens be no more.”

This earth has been gradually degenerating since the Fall. That is why people lived a lot longer at the beginning and why the earth would have probably produced a great deal more bountifully. Because of its degenerating state, creation will be regenerated and brought back to its pristine state. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, which predicts, “Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.”

This earth is depicted in Scripture as gradually decaying to such a stage that it needs replaced. The surface of this earth is metaphorically likened unto a well-worn overcoat that needs replaced with a brand-new spotless garment. This is shown throughout the sacred pages to occur at the second coming. Christ is not going to replace the current tattered earthly coat with another deteriorating coat, as Premillennialists imagine. No! But rather a new perfected garment.

Jesus says of His coming in Matthew 24:35-39: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be.”

The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The coming of the Lord is presented as the closing day of time and history. It is a day that sees the final and total destruction of the wicked. In fact, after presenting the events that preceded the flood of Noah’s day that saw the obliteration of the wicked, Christ highlights the fact that the judgment “took them all away.” He then likens it to the day of His return, explaining, “so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” All these associated elements are carefully brought together to demonstrate the climactic nature of Christ’s return.

Jesus said in Mark 13:24-26, 31-32: “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory … Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.”

Christ speaks of “the days of Noe” (plural), speaking of the days that preceded the destruction of all the wicked. He then spoke of “the day” (singular), speaking of the actual day when the wicked were wiped. This contrast between “the days” and “day” is common in Scripture and is presented in order that we can distinguish between “the lasts days” of time and “the last day” of time, that ushers in the end. The actual day that Noah entered into the ark "the flood came, and took them all away." It was therefore an individual day that God closed the door of the Ark and by doing so damned all those that were left behind. The same will occur when our ark – Christ – arrives at the second coming.

Jesus said in Luke 21:25-27, 33-36: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory … Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Christ is exhorting His listeners here to be ready for His return, and that He will pour out his wrath upon all mankind who are not prepared, ready and rescued. He shows that this is the final event that sees the heavens and the earth shall pass away.

He is coming to rescue us and change us. We will look at that in more detail as we progress.

Can you see what happens to heaven and earth when Jesus comes? Can you see what happens to believers when Jesus comes? Can you see what happened to the wicked when Jesus comes?

They are destroyed by fire. The rebellion of the wicked is finally eliminated forever.

I didnt read all of your book here. But the everything burns up after tribulaion before Millennium. But tribulation will be after Rapture. Imo

 

[WPM]

I didnt read all of your book here. But the everything burns up after tribulaion before Millennium. But tribulation will be after Rapture. Imo

Obviously, you didn't read or address the Scriptures that I presented that forbid your thesis or you would not have claimed what you did. There is no corruptible earth left for you to have a millennium in and for it to be overrun by billions of wicked. This earth and the wicked in it are going up in a puff of smoke when Jesus comes. The coming of the Lord (the end of the age) is the end of deception, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil and the end of time. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection.

 

[WPM]

You don't respond even when I answer them. You just keep accusing me of avoidance or nonsense. Answering questions would not make me turn against God's Word and become Amil.

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student.

 

[jeffweeder]

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student.

Tim, do us a courtesy and just answer the questions in the above post and just leave it at that. Do not be tempted to add anything else...please, Let's make a fresh start.


How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student.



Do you find the scriptural answers to those questions enlightening?

 

[Timtofly]

After the flood, there was still an atmosphere, their was still daylight, there was still water to drink, there was still food to eat, there was still the hand of God's blessing resting on the Earth so that eventually the waters receded, allowing them to go forth and multiply and replenish.

Peter says when Jesus comes as a thief, the atmosphere will burn up, the water will burn up, the land will burn up, all creatures will burn up, and there will be darkness covering the land (for 1,000 years, according to the Historicist prophetic timeline interpretation) with no Sun to grow grasses, plants, crops for food or produce an Ozone layer to protect inhabitants from harmful cosmic rays. Isaiah says the Earth will wobble like a drunk then be turned upside down in never before seen destruction and it will be left desolate, empty, wasted, covered in darkness, lifeless, with only a comparatively few humans left alive as they are taken up to meet Jesus in the air.

No way any life can possibly continue after Jesus comes, according to the above texts, my friend.

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

The firmament will dissolve, not the atmosphere. The elements will melt with heat, but still not fire. The only things burned up are all of the human technological accomplishments, the works of the earth. There are still oceans, rivers, mountains, and people. Jesus sits on a throne in Jerusalem. The stars will be gone, because they all came to earth at the 6th Seal with Jesus the King. It will be the church shining as stars at that point. A new heaven and earth, but not the new creation mentioned in Revelation 21.

It will be a new heaven and earth per Isaiah 65.

 

[Timtofly]

Not true! Where is a millennium mentioned anywhere here? Nowhere! So, that is a lie. You know it! How can anyone survive this? They cannot!

You must be one of those Peter recommended not to be ignorant. A millennium is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a millennium.

 

[WPM]

You must be one of those Peter recommended not to be ignorant. A millennium is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a millennium.

Answer the questions! The reason you do not is because that for you do so and to be honest would force you to abandon your theology.

 

[Truth7t7]

The firmament will dissolve, not the atmosphere. The elements will melt with heat, but still not fire. The only things burned up are all of the human technological accomplishments, the works of the earth.

Real Big Smiles!

 

[Truth7t7]

Answer the questions! The reason you do not is because that for you do so and to be honest would force you to abandon your theology.

What Theology, Smiles!

 

[Phoneman777]

The firmament will dissolve, not the atmosphere. The elements will melt with heat, but still not fire.

What's the atmosphere made of? That's right: elements, like oxygen, nitrogen, etc. They're going to melt with "fervent heat" which is obviously from the FIRE that will accompany the Lord when He comes as a thief:

Isaiah 66:15 KJV
[15] For, behold, the Lord will come with FIRE, and with His chariots like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and his rebuke with FLAMES OF FIRE.

There's other prophecies about the condition of the Earth after the Lord comes. If you like, I can share them with you from Jeremiah and Isaiah, the Psalms, etc.

 

[WPM]

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

The firmament will dissolve, not the atmosphere. The elements will melt with heat, but still not fire. The only things burned up are all of the human technological accomplishments, the works of the earth. There are still oceans, rivers, mountains, and people. Jesus sits on a throne in Jerusalem. The stars will be gone, because they all came to earth at the 6th Seal with Jesus the King. It will be the church shining as stars at that point. A new heaven and earth, but not the new creation mentioned in Revelation 21.

It will be a new heaven and earth per Isaiah 65.

... yea, where the sinner will live to be an hundred and the wicked will grow to such a degree that they overrun your future millennium as the sand of the sea.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you literally believe Christ is coming suddenly and unexpectedly "as a thief in the night" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10)?
Do you literally believe the wicked will experience "sudden destruction" from His appearance as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
Do you literally believe the wicked "shall not escape" as the Bible says (1 Thessalonians 5:3)?
Do you literally believe that "the heavens shall pass away with a great noise" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
Do you literally believe that "the elements shall melt with fervent heat" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10 & 12)?
Do you literally believe that "the earth also ... shall be burned up" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
Do you literally believe that "the works that are therein [the earth] shall be burned up" when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:10)?
Do you literally believe that the righteous are actually looking "for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” when He returns as a thief as the Bible says (2 Peter 3:13)?

The problem is the timing. You don't allow for the Seals, the Trumpets, the Thunders, nor the AoD, and then the vials. To you it all literally happens in a split second. These questions have nothing to do with pre-mil. These questions deal with the timing of the events in the book of Revelation. You have the Second Coming all wrong, so of course your pre-mill view is all wrong as well.

Many here get the Coming of the Day of the Lord wrong and even what the Day of the Lord even is.

 

[WPM]

The problem is the timing. You don't allow for the Seals, the Trumpets, the Thunders, nor the AoD, and then the vials. To you it all literally happens in a split second. These questions have nothing to do with pre-mil. These questions deal with the timing of the events in the book of Revelation. You have the Second Coming all wrong, so of course your pre-mill view is all wrong as well.

Many here get the Coming of the Day of the Lord wrong and even what the Day of the Lord even is.

No, you add 1000 years unto passage after passage where it does not belong. This is not wise or acceptable.

 

[Timtofly]

The Lamb's wrath is reserved for unbelievers. Are you trying to accuse those who disagree with your end times doctrine of being unbelievers? Since when does being saved have anything to do with our end times doctrine?

You have pointed out that you don't accept nor believe Jesus will be on the earth as King at the Second Coming in the 6th Seal.

If you don't think the 6th Seal will happen as stated, you will be among those hiding out asking the same question. Why would you want to be taken up, if you don't even accept Jesus is literally on the earth?

If you accept Zechariah 14 happened in the first century, then you expect to be on earth at the Second Coming. That is what you teach and point out. Why would you claim one thing, and then secretly expect something else? You claim Jesus is not on earth, when Zechariah 14 states Jesus is on the earth. Matthew 13 states Jesus is on the earth. Matthew 25 states Jesus is on the earth. Revelation 6 states Jesus, called the Lamb, is on the earth. Jesus stated He would return to the earth one day. The day Jesus left, the angels explained He would come back exactly to that same spot, the same as He left. Zechariah 14 agrees with what those angels said, yet you claim the opposite. "That was Jesus coming then, and not His Second Coming." is your reasoning.

You seem very gung-ho and cavalier about being on earth after the Second Coming while Jesus is gathering the final harvest with His angels. Because you turn off that fact in your amil view of a singularity you have established as doctrine.

How many times will the heavens dissolve, when the angels come to earth? From the Olivet Discourse:

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,"

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise."

Now see when and how John put the two together:

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

How many times will this repeat itself in your parallel eschatology? Why do you get to twist Scripture to fit your twisted chronological order of events?

You twist Scripture by stating it is all over in a split singularity. Then you twist Scripture to say John just repeats the same event over and over again. You are the one not prepared if it does not work out the way you think it will.

You complain when others cannot see the Amil view. Then you scoff when they point out it is wrong. Then you call Scripture nonsense, when it is pointed out that there is a contradiction. Then you claim, "John really did not see things as he wrote them down, surely, he was just seeing amil's "singularity event" over and over again?".

 

[Timtofly]

Sheesh yourself. Nowhere in scripture does it say that an unsaved person can be "in Jesus". Only those who are saved are in Jesus/Christ.

It does say not all of Israel are of Israel.

Now compare that to the church today. Not all the church are of the church.

One sits on the pew. One has the Holy Spirit sitting in authority.

Perhaps Taken is not being understood, because he does not speak Amil?

Now are those just sitting on a pew going to be tossed in the LOF? Before you jump to conclusions and say yes, do you know their heart? They never rejected salvation, but neither did they work out salvation. That seems to be what Taken is attempting to say. Yet you seem to be so stuck up with Amil, you are not paying attention.

Those in Jesus sit on a pew every week and are faithful, and even confess their sins. Those in Christ crucify the flesh daily, and their works produce fruit.

Paul says:

"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

Notice the small print:

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

Obviously Paul understood that not all sitting in a pew in the 21st century would know this. Does not mean they will be tossed in the LOF. It means they will receive no reward and all their works will be burned up. You know that point Peter made in 2 Peter 3, that you claim is the the whole earth burned up, when in fact the gold and silver will remain?

Taken has a slightly different perspective, but so does everyone posting. No two humans agree on every single detail. Even you all Amil disagree on certain points.

 

[Timtofly]

I didnt read all of your book here. But the everything burns up after tribulaion before Millennium. But tribulation will be after Rapture. Imo

Everything burns up prior to tribulation. That will make tribulation even greater than most think it will be. Those not paying attention to Scripture are just as wrong as those saying we should change the order of Revelation to make it fit our private teachings.

 

[WPM]

Everything burns up prior to tribulation. That will make tribulation even greater than most think it will be. Those not paying attention to Scripture are just as wrong as those saying we should change the order of Revelation to make it fit our private teachings.

LOL. Who is writing your script for you? It will make it impossible. The current universe and stars are all going to be changed when He comes. Christ will be the eternal light on the new earth! The whole description indicates this corrupt earth and the heavens (outer space) we know now will be no more when Jesus comes.

Isaiah 30:33: “For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.”

Isaiah 34:1-4, 8: “Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree … For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.”

This is total destruction – for who and what is left behind. This is talking about the topography of the physical earth and starry host being totally destroyed. There are no survivors!

Isaiah 34 is speaking about the physical change that affects the earth, heavens and elements when Jesus comes. Premil has to often change the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words in order to get that doctrine to fit. Premil explains away the literal meaning of text after text and replaces with its alternative definition. This is not the way that Scripture should be approached. This is classic eisegesis. There is so much Scripture that forbids the Premil theory that Premil is forced to spiritualize away the clearest and most literal of Scripture, ironically it literalizes the one book that is the most symbolic in Scripture (Revelation). This alone is grounds to reject the doctrine.

Isaiah 66:15-17: “For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.”

Joel 2:1-3 says, “for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”

Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

Nahum 1:1, 5-6 says, “God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies …The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.”

Malachi 4:1 says, “For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up.”

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student. No wicked survive. We are looking at utter and wholesale destruction. That is because the wicked are not qualified to inherit the new earth. Mortals are not welcome. Corruption cannot inherit incorruption.

All of these Old Testament passages agree with the climactic New Testament detail pertaining to the second coming that proves the Amil paradigm. What do you have? Nothing! All you have is the misinterpretation of one apocalyptic passage. That is theologically insane and abysmal hermeneutics. Your understanding of the same conflicts with multiple Old Testament and New Testament passages that show the coming of Christ to be the end.

 

[St. Joseph]

Everything burns up prior to tribulation. That will make tribulation even greater than most think it will be. Those not paying attention to Scripture are just as wrong as those saying we should change the order of Revelation to make it fit our private teachings.

World burning before tribulation makes no since. As far as changing order of the book....revelation is written in chronological order. Yes...really