This world and the wicked are going up in a puff of smoke when Jesus come - thus negating Premil

[Timtofly]

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student.

Did they all drown, in the first second the rain fell?

Did it take 40 days to kill the last human?

I never stated any survived.

I stated that it took longer than a split second to "get the job done".

The scale of destruction in Revelation included 42 months of AoD after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound. It was not all over at the 6th Seal. That was the beginning, not the end.

The 144k are sealed after the Second Coming. The 7th Seal is opened after the Second Coming. The Trumpets and Thunders happen after the Second Coming. Jesus and the angels are here for the final harvest after they arrive, not prior to arrival.

Jesus was on the earth as Messiah. Jesus is on the earth as Prince. The first century was not remote controlled from heaven with an empty physical body. The Second Coming is not remote from heaven with an empty physical body. Jesus is on the earth with the angels, not hovering like superman, calling the shots.

"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;"

The Second Coming is Jesus Coming to earth physically. He is sowing the gospel seed personally on earth. The final harvest is on earth after Jesus arrives and personally plants the field Himself. Satan is planting his own seed at the very same time in this time of great tribulation. All the angels are on earth, and they arrive at the 6th Seal.

You can twist and spin this all you want, but you cannot change the points given.

 

[WPM]

The problem is the timing. You don't allow for the Seals, the Trumpets, the Thunders, nor the AoD, and then the vials. To you it all literally happens in a split second. These questions have nothing to do with pre-mil. These questions deal with the timing of the events in the book of Revelation. You have the Second Coming all wrong, so of course your pre-mill view is all wrong as well.

Many here get the Coming of the Day of the Lord wrong and even what the Day of the Lord even is.

I was quoting Scripture and you could not even answer it straight because it interferes with what you have been taught.

 

[WPM]

Did they all drown, in the first second the rain fell?

Did it take 40 days to kill the last human?

I never stated any survived.

I stated that it took longer than a split second to "get the job done".

The scale of destruction in Revelation included 42 months of AoD after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound. It was not all over at the 6th Seal. That was the beginning, not the end.

The 144k are sealed after the Second Coming. The 7th Seal is opened after the Second Coming. The Trumpets and Thunders happen after the Second Coming. Jesus and the angels are here for the final harvest after they arrive, not prior to arrival.

Jesus was on the earth as Messiah. Jesus is on the earth as Prince. The first century was not remote controlled from heaven with an empty physical body. The Second Coming is not remote from heaven with an empty physical body. Jesus is on the earth with the angels, not hovering like superman, calling the shots.

"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;"

The Second Coming is Jesus Coming to earth physically. He is sowing the gospel seed personally on earth. The final harvest is on earth after Jesus arrives and personally plants the field Himself. Satan is planting his own seed at the very same time in this time of great tribulation. All the angels are on earth, and they arrive at the 6th Seal.

You can twist and spin this all you want, but you cannot change the points given.

It doesn't say they died over 40 days. That is your own invention.

 

[WPM]

Did they all drown, in the first second the rain fell?

Did it take 40 days to kill the last human?

I never stated any survived.

I stated that it took longer than a split second to "get the job done".

The scale of destruction in Revelation included 42 months of AoD after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound. It was not all over at the 6th Seal. That was the beginning, not the end.

The 144k are sealed after the Second Coming. The 7th Seal is opened after the Second Coming. The Trumpets and Thunders happen after the Second Coming. Jesus and the angels are here for the final harvest after they arrive, not prior to arrival.

Jesus was on the earth as Messiah. Jesus is on the earth as Prince. The first century was not remote controlled from heaven with an empty physical body. The Second Coming is not remote from heaven with an empty physical body. Jesus is on the earth with the angels, not hovering like superman, calling the shots.

"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;"

The Second Coming is Jesus Coming to earth physically. He is sowing the gospel seed personally on earth. The final harvest is on earth after Jesus arrives and personally plants the field Himself. Satan is planting his own seed at the very same time in this time of great tribulation. All the angels are on earth, and they arrive at the 6th Seal.

You can twist and spin this all you want, but you cannot change the points given.

Christ speaks of “the days of Noe” (plural), speaking of the days that preceded the destruction of all the wicked. He then spoke of “the day” (singular), speaking of the actual day when the wicked were wiped. This contrast between “the days” and “day” is common in Scripture and is presented in order that we can distinguish between “the lasts days” of time and “the last day” of time, that ushers in the end. The actual day that Noah entered into the ark "the flood came, and took them all away." It was therefore an individual day that God closed the door of the Ark and by doing so damned all those that were left behind. The same will occur when our ark – Christ – arrives at the second coming. Jesus said in Luke 13:24-25, “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are.”

Here, all those that have not entered unto salvation’s narrow path via the blood-sprinkled straight gate are seen locked outside at Christ’s coming. They are then left to the same awful punishment that the wicked were in Noah’s day, damned and doomed for all eternity. Plainly, there are only two paths in this life – the straight and narrow path that is traversed by the redeemed alone and the broad and crooked path that is filled with the damned. When heaven’s eternal ark – Christ Jesus – comes on the last day, all will be locked outside that don’t travel the narrow road. The wicked of all nations will then be destroyed by fire. Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14, “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

Christians today have made the narrow road the broad road and the broad road the narrow road. They preach their messages in such a compromised manner that you would believe: “crooked is the gate, and broad is the way, which leadeth unto life, and many there be that find it.” There are two different peoples in this life, walking two different roads, in two different directions, to two different destinations. The Christian is bound for heaven; the sinner is bound for hell. Jesus said in Matthew 25:6,10, “at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him … And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.”

God closed the ark and the destructive floods came immediately lasting 40 days, although the water remained on the earth 150 days until the ark rested on Ararat. Jesus said, "the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (Luke 17:27). The Lord goes from "days" (plural) to "day" to show that he is talking of an individual day of destruction. Christ reinforces the fact that it was an individual day by also using the days/days contrast re Sodom's judgement, He emphasizes, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all” (v29). And then concludes, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (or) apokaluptetai” (v 30).

 

[Timtofly]

Tim, do us a courtesy and just answer the questions in the above post and just leave it at that. Do not be tempted to add anything else...please, Let's make a fresh start.


How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student.



Do you find the scriptural answers to those questions enlightening?

Have you allowed the book of Revelation to reveal you are wrong?

Do you change how John wrote the book and say this is how it should be read so our doctrine is correct?

Is Revelation a series of parallels like human reasoning dictates?

No one remains in Adam's dead corruptible flesh after the Second Coming. But it is not over in a split second, and neither was the Flood, nor the destruction of Sodom. You claim Noah left the ark, the second after he entered and all was changed instantly. That is your interpretation of the Flood as well as the Day of the Lord.

The fresh start would be Amil stopping accusing posters of avoiding the topic.

A fresh start would be to address Scripture that Amil either explain away, or avoid addressing altogether, instead of a posters style and attitude.

 

[WPM]

Have you allowed the book of Revelation to reveal you are wrong?

Do you change how John wrote the book and say this is how it should be read so our doctrine is correct?

Is Revelation a series of parallels like human reasoning dictates?

No one remains in Adam's dead corruptible flesh after the Second Coming. But it is not over in a split second, and neither was the Flood, nor the destruction of Sodom. You claim Noah left the ark, the second after he entered and all was changed instantly. That is your interpretation of the Flood as well as the Day of the Lord.

The fresh start would be Amil stopping accusing posters of avoiding the topic.

A fresh start would be to address Scripture that Amil either explain away, or avoid addressing altogether, instead of a posters style and attitude.

Why would we stop accusing you of avoiding topics when that is what you do? Lol. Also, what you force on the sacred text isn't what it is saying. You have to them explain passage after passage away.

 

[Timtofly]

What's the atmosphere made of? That's right: elements, like oxygen, nitrogen, etc. They're going to melt with "fervent heat" which is obviously from the FIRE that will accompany the Lord when He comes as a thief:

Isaiah 66:15 KJV
[15] For, behold, the Lord will come with FIRE, and with His chariots like a whirlwind, to render His anger with fury, and his rebuke with FLAMES OF FIRE.

There's other prophecies about the condition of the Earth after the Lord comes. If you like, I can share them with you from Jeremiah and Isaiah, the Psalms, etc.

The earth will be desolate for the 42 months of the Abomination of desolation. That is why the word desolation is included in the term AoD.

I am not saying the earth is not laid bare, nor made desolate. If all the oxygen is gone, is Christ walking around with a mask and an oxygen tank?

2 Peter 3 is physical with Jesus physically coming to earth, not just burning it all up.

Not sure why Amil agree with your point? They only see the earth desolate for less than a split second, then everything is perfect.

 

[Timtofly]

LOL. Who is writing your script for you? It will make it impossible. The current universe and stars are all going to be changed when He comes. Christ will be the eternal light on the new earth! The whole description indicates this corrupt earth and the heavens (outer space) we know now will be no more when Jesus comes.

The question is who writes all these cut and paste arguments.

Are you talking about Satan's deceptive universe or creation as God gave in Genesis 1?

Modern science is a work of man that will go up in a puff of smoke, because it is literally a virtual reality with no physical substance.

The angels are the stars that leave the firmament and come to earth appearing as normal humans. These pictures of angels in white garments with wings are human works that will be burned up. No one will know who is an angel and who is not an angel. Obviously they will look like people from out of town like they did here:

"And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat. But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them."

People will see them just like they see strangers passing through town.

The NHNE are still a thousand years away at the 6th Seal. We have not even heard the Trumpets yet at the 6th Seal.

You have placed the time of the Second Coming, into a singularity event at the Second Coming, just as modern science declared creation started with a big bang singularity.

Both are deceptions of Satan and works that are burned up per 2 Peter 3.

 

[WPM]

The question is who writes all these cut and paste arguments.

Are you talking about Satan's deceptive universe or creation as God gave in Genesis 1?

Modern science is a work of man that will go up in a puff of smoke, because it is literally a virtual reality with no physical substance.

The angels are the stars that leave the firmament and come to earth appearing as normal humans. These pictures of angels in white garments with wings are human works that will be burned up. No one will know who is an angel and who is not an angel. Obviously they will look like people from out of town like they did here:

"And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat. But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them."

People will see them just like they see strangers passing through town.

The NHNE are still a thousand years away at the 6th Seal. We have not even heard the Trumpets yet at the 6th Seal.

You have placed the time of the Second Coming, into a singularity event at the Second Coming, just as modern science declared creation started with a big bang singularity.

Both are deceptions of Satan and works that are burned up per 2 Peter 3.

More avoidance. That is who you are and that is what you do. I refer you back to my last posts that refutes your opinions.

 

[Timtofly]

World burning before tribulation makes no since. As far as changing order of the book....revelation is written in chronological order. Yes...really

One could say allowing sin into the world does not make sense.

It only took one simple act of disobedience to let sin into the world.

The fiery cleansing of 2 Peter 3 is more than a simple act, after 6,000 years of sin.

Many claim that Peter says the earth is burned up. The earth is the center of God's creation, not the universe, according to Genesis 1. The firmament is dissolved, the earth is not. The works of sin are literally all burned up. Nothing left of man's work will remain. Why would God removing all of man's works made in sin and disobedience not make sense? This is not Revelation 20:11

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

2 Peter 3 is the same event as the 6th Seal in Revelation 6. The heavens dissolving, only happens once.

After the 1,000 year reign Jesus hands back creation to God perfect and complete. Not a burnt offering of death and destruction.

 

[Timtofly]

I was quoting Scripture and you could not even answer it straight because it interferes with what you have been taught.

I agree with all that Scripture. I don't agree with your timing.

 

[Timtofly]

It doesn't say they died over 40 days. That is your own invention.

It does not say they died in the first second either. Your implication is that they were all killed before it started to rain.

 

[Timtofly]

Christ speaks of “the days of Noe” (plural), speaking of the days that preceded the destruction of all the wicked. He then spoke of “the day” (singular), speaking of the actual day when the wicked were wiped. This contrast between “the days” and “day” is common in Scripture and is presented in order that we can distinguish between “the lasts days” of time and “the last day” of time, that ushers in the end. The actual day that Noah entered into the ark "the flood came, and took them all away." It was therefore an individual day that God closed the door of the Ark and by doing so damned all those that were left behind. The same will occur when our ark – Christ – arrives at the second coming. Jesus said in Luke 13:24-25, “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are.”

Here, all those that have not entered unto salvation’s narrow path via the blood-sprinkled straight gate are seen locked outside at Christ’s coming. They are then left to the same awful punishment that the wicked were in Noah’s day, damned and doomed for all eternity. Plainly, there are only two paths in this life – the straight and narrow path that is traversed by the redeemed alone and the broad and crooked path that is filled with the damned. When heaven’s eternal ark – Christ Jesus – comes on the last day, all will be locked outside that don’t travel the narrow road. The wicked of all nations will then be destroyed by fire. Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14, “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.”

Christians today have made the narrow road the broad road and the broad road the narrow road. They preach their messages in such a compromised manner that you would believe: “crooked is the gate, and broad is the way, which leadeth unto life, and many there be that find it.” There are two different peoples in this life, walking two different roads, in two different directions, to two different destinations. The Christian is bound for heaven; the sinner is bound for hell. Jesus said in Matthew 25:6,10, “at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him … And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.”

God closed the ark and the destructive floods came immediately lasting 40 days, although the water remained on the earth 150 days until the ark rested on Ararat. Jesus said, "the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all” (Luke 17:27). The Lord goes from "days" (plural) to "day" to show that he is talking of an individual day of destruction. Christ reinforces the fact that it was an individual day by also using the days/days contrast re Sodom's judgement, He emphasizes, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all” (v29). And then concludes, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed (or) apokaluptetai” (v 30).

The implication is that it was 39 days of destruction; longer than your first day of rain.

40 days of tribulation after Noah was safely in the ark. If you cannot see the spiritual implication of the 40 days, then that is probably why you are post trib and deny the millennium reign of Christ.

There is no waiting period between the Second Coming and the tribulation. It is immediate with no where for those on earth to escape the tribulation. At one point they want to die, but cannot.

"And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

How many people are currently trying to die to escape God's judgment? If we are currently in the tribulation, should that not be happening?

 

[Timtofly]

More avoidance. That is who you are and that is what you do. I refer you back to my last posts that refutes your opinions.

Which opinions and which post?

 

[WPM]

The implication is that it was 39 days of destruction; longer than your first day of rain.

40 days of tribulation after Noah was safely in the ark. If you cannot see the spiritual implication of the 40 days, then that is probably why you are post trib and deny the millennium reign of Christ.

There is no waiting period between the Second Coming and the tribulation. It is immediate with no where for those on earth to escape the tribulation. At one point they want to die, but cannot.

"And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

How many people are currently trying to die to escape God's judgment? If we are currently in the tribulation, should that not be happening?

Where is your Scripture? As usual, nowhere. It is all in your own head. You make it up as you go. I gave you hard Scripture and (as usual), you ducked around it. There was a singular day that Jesus said the wicked were destroyed. For you to address the evidence would force you to abandon your beliefs.

 

[WPM]

How many people are currently trying to die to escape God's judgment? If we are currently in the tribulation, should that not be happening?

You do not even see the difference between the tribulation of the devil during the intra-Advent period and the wrath of God at the end that destroys everyone when Jesus appears. You duck around the passages that describe the destruction as "sudden" and the passages that shows that the wicked are destroyed from the very "presence of the Lord." That is because these demolishes your theology.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

World burning before tribulation makes no since. As far as changing order of the book....revelation is written in chronological order. Yes...really

So, do you believe that what is described in Revelation 12, which includes the birth and ascension of Jesus Christ (Rev 12:5) follows what is described at the end of Revelation 11, which are events related to the seventh trumpet?

 

[St. Joseph]

So, do you believe that what is described in Revelation 12, which includes the birth and ascension of Jesus Christ (Rev 12:5) follows what is described at the end of Revelation 11, which are events related to the seventh trumpet?

Notice how 12 starts with "And"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Notice how 12 starts with "And"?

LOL. So? Does the word "and" have to mean "and then after that happens, this happens"? No, of course not. The book of Revelation is a series of visions that John saw. So, he saw one vision and another vision and another vision and so on. The order in which he saw and recorded the visions does not determine the order in which the events portrayed in his visions have to occur.

Also, why did you not answer my question? Do you believe the seventh trumpet events described in Revelation 11:15-18 occur before the birth and ascension of Jesus Christ described in Revelation 12:5? Yes or no. This isn't hard.

 

[St. Joseph]

LOL. So? Does the word "and" have to mean "and then after that happens, this happens"? No, of course not. The book of Revelation is a series of visions that John saw. So, he saw one vision and another vision and another vision and so on. The order in which he saw and recorded the visions does not determine the order in which the events portrayed in his visions have to occur.

Also, why did you not answer my question? Do you believe the seventh trumpet events described in Revelation 11:15-18 occur before the birth and ascension of Jesus Christ described in Revelation 12:5? Yes or no. This isn't hard.

The woman is Israel, the child is Christ the dragon is Satan..
Christ came and died before 12 even.
This is only depicting the war between good and evil. Its not speaking of his birth in Matthew. Verse 6 tells you its during tribulation.