A response to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment (ECT)

[Patrick1966]

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Neither this nor anything else you shared says that Jesus can't or won't have mercy after someone dies. You're ASSUMING that Jesus just automatically starts torturing people immediately upon death.

 

[keithr]

The rest of the dead are not resurrected until after the 1000 years! Read your bible!
And after the 1000 years, there is no chance for salvation, but judgment!

Bible study shows that the first part of Revelation 20:5, "The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished", is believed by Bible scholars to be an interpolation:

Probably crept into the text by accident in the fifth century; at first a marginal comment made by a reader expressive of his thought, later copied into the text by transcribers who failed to distinguish between the text and the comment.​

​

It is not found in any manuscripts older than the seventh century.​

​

Not found in any Greek manuscript of earlier date than the fifth century. Nor is it found in the ancient Syriac.​

​

The Syriac-Peshito, the mother tongue of Jesus and the apostles, written in the first or second century and is older than any Greek manuscript extant, also repudiates this clause.​

​

It is wanting, too, in the Vatican No. 1160, a manuscript of special clearness and harmony with the most ancient ones.​

Even if you treat it as a true sentence of Scripture, it has to be interpreted in harmony with the rest of Scripture, which means you have to consider who "the rest of the dead" are - they are everyone except the resurrected Church that had just been described in the previous verse as living in heaven, seated on thrones, reigning and judging with Jesus for 1,000 years. Jesus and the Church will be reigning for 1,000 years over the rest of mankind (the rest of the dead), blessing and judging them. The non-interpolated part of Revelation 20:5 says that those living and reigning with Jesus are those that were resurrected in "the first resurrection". By saying that the rest of mankind will not live until the end of the 1,000 years (bearing in mind that this is most likely not true Scripture) should be interpreted to mean that they will not have perfect and eternal life until after the judgement at the end of the 1,000 years.

Satan is bound up for the 1,000 years and released at the end of that time. Why? Because the rest of the dead are resurrected at the beginning of that 1,000 years to be blessed by Jesus and the Church, to be brought back to human perfection and to have faith in God and Jesus. Unlike the present age, where Satan is free to deceive mankind and unrighteousness abounds, Satan is bound so that he cannot deceive anyone during the 1,000 years, and Jesus will rule with with righteousness. The "rest of the dead" (having been alive for around 1,000 years) are then judged according to their works during those 1,000 years.

The resurrection of "the rest of the dead", the second resurrection, is described in Revelation 20:13 (WEB):

(13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.​

The dead in the sea includes all those that died during the world-wide flood in the days of Noah. Everyone who has died will be resurrected (the sea and death and Hades "gave up the dead") - except the Christian Church because they had already been resurrected! They are then "judged" at the end of the 1,000 years; they are judged based on their works during the 1,000 years (verse 12). Those whose names have not made it into the "book of life" - the record of who is judged worthy of eternal life - will then suffer a second death (verses 14-15, symbolically described as being thrown into the lake of fire), and then there will be no more death, so death is also symbolically described as also being destroyed (symbolic because death cannot burn or die, let alone die a second time!).

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

No second chances! As it is written in Hebrews: It is determined for man to die once- then comes their judgment.

The long life of up to 1,000 years after they are resurrected, is the first chance of eternal life for the majority of mankind, and it is their jugdement 'day'. For Christians, our first chance is when God gives us the gift of faith in Jesus, and we we are begotten again by God. Our judgement day is our life after baptism into Christ's death. A second death is God's judgement for those not worthy of eternal life.

 

[Behold]

Neither this nor anything else you shared says that Jesus can't or won't have mercy after someone dies.

God's mercy is the Cross of Christ, on Earth.

Its not available in Hell or in the Lake of Fire.

Did you never read the parable of the "rich man in Hell".
You should read it.
Take note that He isn't told....>"just hold on.......it's going to be alright,...we're going to let you out in a few more thousand years".

= Instead, He begs to have his family told about it, so that they dont end up there".

There is NO 2nd Chance IN HELL.
You can not be born again in Hell.
Everyone in Hell, now believes in Jesus with all their heart, and it didnt help them at all.

 

[keithr]

All created sentient beings ((angels and men) have immortality due to being given it by the one who only possesses it as an inherent quality.

In Jude, angels are chained in everlsating darkness. Why the need for everlasting darkness for non immortal beings.)

Jude 1:6 (WEB):

(6) Angels who didn’t keep their first domain, but deserted their own dwelling place, he has kept in everlasting bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.​

These angels are kept in darkness only until their judgement day. The darkness is described as everlasting, but not their incarceration in it. As Peter descibed it, 2 Peter 2:4 (WEB):

(4) For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved for judgment;​

Where is Scriptural evidence that angels and men are immortal? I can't find any, whereas I can find evidence that eternal life and immortality was only revealed and made known (and possible) by Jesus - 2 Timothy 1:10 (ESV):

(10) and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,​

Luke 20:36 King James Version

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.​

Mans body may die, but His soul and spirit are immortal and in the future every living soul and spirit will be rejoined with their bodies for their everlastin habitation.

The Matthew and Mark equivalent passages don't say "they can't die anymore", they just say "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like God’s angels in heaven". Luke doesn't mean that the angels and resurrected people are/will be immortal, he is just confirming that after the final judgement there will be no more death. Only God and his household (Jesus and the resurrected Church) will have an immortal nature, meaning that they cannot possibly die. Everyone else will be mortal, meaning they could possibly die, but they will live eternally under God's care. Christians will be a new creation after the resurrection - they won't be "rejoined" with their old flesh bodies.

When there is no more death there will be no need for mankind to procreate, so there will be no need for marriage and having children. Whether there will be male and female or whether everyone will be resurrected as male, we can only surmise. There are not male and female angels, and angels do not get married and have offspring. Jesus says that after the resurrection it will be the same for mankind. Everyone will then be children of God, not children of men and women.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No worm in existence could survive more than a single hour let alone dieth not in a hot firey place of torment--Proving 100% its symbolic. 6 feet under-the worm dieth not.

All you are doing is arguing from finite human reasoning and telling god what He can and cannot odo!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Neither this nor anything else you shared says that Jesus can't or won't have mercy after someone dies. You're ASSUMING that Jesus just automatically starts torturing people immediately upon death.

Well as there is nothing that hints of salvation after death, these verses are powerful especially the one that says a man is appointed to die then comes his judgment (which is sentencing)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Bible study shows that the first part of Revelation 20:5, "The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished", is believed by Bible scholars to be an interpolation:

Probably crept into the text by accident in the fifth century; at first a marginal comment made by a reader expressive of his thought, later copied into the text by transcribers who failed to distinguish between the text and the comment.​

​

It is not found in any manuscripts older than the seventh century.​

​

Not found in any Greek manuscript of earlier date than the fifth century. Nor is it found in the ancient Syriac.​

​

The Syriac-Peshito, the mother tongue of Jesus and the apostles, written in the first or second century and is older than any Greek manuscript extant, also repudiates this clause.​

​

It is wanting, too, in the Vatican No. 1160, a manuscript of special clearness and harmony with the most ancient ones.​

Even if you treat it as a true sentence of Scripture, it has to be interpreted in harmony with the rest of Scripture, which means you have to consider who "the rest of the dead" are - they are everyone except the resurrected Church that had just been described in the previous verse as living in heaven, seated on thrones, reigning and judging with Jesus for 1,000 years. Jesus and the Church will be regining for 1,000 years over the rest of mankind (the rest of the dead), blessing and judging them. The non-interpolated part of Revelation 20:5 says that those living and reigning with Jesus are those that were resurrected in "the first resurrection". By saying that the rest of mankind will not live until the end of the 1,000 years (bearing in mind that this is most likely not true Scripture) should be interpreted to mean that they will not have perfect and eternal life until after the judgement at the end of the 1,000 years.

Satan is bound up for the 1,000 years and released at the end of that time. Why? Because the rest of the dead are resurrected at the beginning of that 1,000 years to be blessed by Jesus and the Church, to be brought back to human perfection and to have faith in God and Jesus. Unlike the present age, where Satan is free to deceive mankind and unrighteousness abounds, Satan is bound so that he cannot deceive anyone during the 1,000 years, and Jesus will rule with with righteousness. The "rest of the dead" (having been alive for around 1,000 years) are then judged according to their works during those 1,000 years.

The resurrection of "the rest of the dead", the second resurrection, is described in Revelation 20:13 (WEB):

(13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.​

The dead in the sea includes all those that died during the world-wide flood in the days of Noah. Everyone who has died will be resurrected (the sea and death and Hades "gave up the dead") - except the Christian Church because they had already been resurrected! They are then "judged" at the end of the 1,000 years; they are judged based on their works during the 1,000 years (verse 12). Those whose names have not made it into the "book of life" - the record of who is judged worthy of eternal life - will then suffer a second death (verses 14-15, symbolically described as being thrown into the lake of fire), and then there will be no more death, so death is also symbolically described as also being destroyed (symbolic because death cannot burn or die, let alone die a second time!).


The long life of up to 1,000 years after they are resurrected, is the first chance of eternal life for the majority of mankind, and it is their jugdement 'day'. For Christians, our first chance is when God gives us the gift of faith in Jesus, and we we are begotten again by God. Our judgement day is our life after baptism into Christ's death. A second death is God's judgement for those not worthy of eternal life.

The argument you present has many errors.

1. Jesus spoke Hebrew/Aramaic not Syriac /Peshito

Revelation 20

King James Version

​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Let us for a moment assume your sources are correct (assume not accept): The fact of two resurrections are unambiguously clear without verse 5!

Verse 6 calls those of the first resurrection blessed. So are you saying verse 6 is invalid also?

The verse 6 resurrected reign with Jesus for a thousand years. Is this invalid also?

After 1,000 years Satan is released and goes and deceives again masses of humanity- defeated and cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet already are (not were)!

God establishes His GWT raises the rest of the dead and then judges them!

So verse five merely describes teh fact of what takes place.

1. Teh martyred during the trib are raised and called blessed,
2. they reign for 1,000 years
3. After the 1,000 years, another rebellion that is defeated.
4. Teh GWT is set and the rest of the dead are resurrected!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jude 1:6 (WEB):

(6) Angels who didn’t keep their first domain, but deserted their own dwelling place, he has kept in everlasting bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.​

These angels are kept in darkness only until their judgement day. The darkness is described as everlasting, but not their incarceration in it. As Peter descibed it, 2 Peter 2:4 (WEB):

(4) For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved for judgment;​

Where is Scriptural evidence that angels and men are immortal? I can't find any, whereas I can find evidence that eternal life and immortality was only revealed and made known (and possible) by Jesus - 2 Timothy 1:10 (ESV):

(10) and which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,​

The Matthew and Mark equivalent passages don't say "they can't die anymore", they just say "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like God’s angels in heaven". Luke doesn't mean that the angels and resurrected people are/will be immortal, he is just confirming that after the final judgement there will be no more death. Only God and his household (Jesus and the resurrected Church) will have an immortal nature, meaning that they cannot possibly die. Everyone else will be mortal, meaning they could possibly die, but they will live eternally under God's care. Christians will be a new creation after the resurrection - they won't be "rejoined" with their old flesh bodies.

When there is no more death there will be no need for mankind to procreate, so there will be no need for marriage and having children. Whether there will be male and female or whether everyone will be resurrected as male, we can only surmise. There are not male and female angels, and angels do not get married and have offspring. Jesus says that after the resurrection it will be the same for mankind. Everyone will then be children of God, not children of men and women.

Wow is your nickname "Cleopatra"? for you are the Queen of de-nial!

Luke 20:36 King James Version

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.​

Jesus said angels don't die! that is enough for me. I don't need someone playing a game of twister with the Word of God !

 

[Keiw]

All you are doing is arguing from finite human reasoning and telling god what He can and cannot odo!

Jehovah is a God of justice( Deut 32:4)--an eye for an eye= perfect justice= Gods justice. So for 70-100 years of an unrepented life Jehovah could not or would not punish one for trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of suffering. You are being deceived. Because your teachers do not know God. Jesus warned that many wouldn't-John 15:20-21

 

[The Learner]

means “age.”

Patrick the article is comminting serious word study fallacies. Matthew 25:46, if you limit eternal life, then you are limiting eternal punishment. It is the same greek work for eternal.
"

Greek-English Concordance for αἰώνιος​

Matthew 18:8	“If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg neut) fire.
Matthew 19:16	A young man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do so that I may have eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life?”
Matthew 19:29	And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for my name’s sake will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
Matthew 25:41	“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed ones, to the eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg neut) fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:46	And these will depart to eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) punishment, but the righteous to eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.”

 

[The Learner]

Mark 3:29	but whoever but blasphemes against the Holy Spirit Holy will never have forgiveness but is guilty of an eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg neut) sin”
Mark 10:17	And as he was going out on the road, a man ran up, and kneeling before him, asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life?”
Mark 10:30	who will not receive one hundredfold now in this present time — houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and fields, with persecutions — and in the coming age, eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
Mark 16:8	And going outside, they fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had taken hold of them. And they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.
Luke 10:25	Once a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life?”
Luke 16:9	And I say to you, make friends for yourselves by means of the wealth of unrighteousness, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal (aiōnious | αἰωνίους | acc pl fem) homes.
Luke 18:18	Now a certain ruler asked him, saying, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life?”
Luke 18:30	who will not receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.”
John 3:15	so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
John 3:16	“For this is how God loved the world: he gave his one and only Son that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
John 3:36	The one who believes in the Son has eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life; but the one who disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 4:14	but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water gushing up to eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.”
John 4:36	The reaper is already receiving wages and gathering a crop for eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life, so that the sower and the reaper may rejoice together.
John 5:24	I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life and will not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 5:39	“You study the Scriptures because you think that by them you will have eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
John 6:27	Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life, which the Son of Man will give you; for on him God the Father has set his seal.”
John 6:40	For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who considers the Son and comes to believe in him should have eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:47	I tell you the solemn truth, the one who believes has eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
John 6:54	The one who feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life, and I will raise him up on the last day;
John 6:68	Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg fem) life,
John 10:28	and I give them eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life. They will never perish, and no one will ever snatch them out of my hand.
John 12:25	The one who loves his life loses it, and the one who hates his life in this world preserves it for eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
John 12:50	And I know that his command is eternal (aiōnios | αἰώνιος | nom sg fem) life. So whatever I say, I speak just as the Father has told me.”
John 17:2	since you have given him authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life to those you have given to him.
John 17:3	And this is eternal (aiōnios | αἰώνιος | nom sg fem) life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent.
Acts 13:46	Both Paul and Barnabas spoke boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg fem) life, we are now turning to the Gentiles.
Acts 13:48	When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life believed.
Romans 2:7	to those who by patiently doing good works seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life;
Romans 5:21	so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness leading to eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:22	But now, freed from sin and enslaved to God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification, and its outcome, eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
Romans 6:23	For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal (aiōnios | αἰώνιος | nom sg fem) life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 16:25	Now to him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that has been kept secret for long ages (aiōniois | αἰωνίοις | dat pl masc) past,
Romans 16:26	but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg masc) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;
2 Corinthians 4:17	For our momentary lightness of affliction is producing for us an eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg neut) weight of glory far beyond all comparison,
2 Corinthians 4:18	as we look not on what can be seen, but on the unseen; for what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is eternal (aiōnia | αἰώνια | nom pl neut).
2 Corinthians 5:1	For we know that if our earthly house, the tent we live in, is taken down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem), in the heavens.
Galatians 6:8	For the one who sows to his own flesh, from the flesh will reap corruption; but the one who sows to the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
2 Thessalonians 1:9	They will experience the punishment of eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg masc) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power
2 Thessalonians 2:16	Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal (aiōnian | αἰωνίαν | acc sg fem) encouragement and good hope by grace,
1 Timothy 1:16	But for this reason I was shown mercy: so that in me as foremost Christ Jesus might display his complete patience as an illustration for those who were to believe in him for eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
1 Timothy 6:12	Fight the good fight of the faith. Seize hold of the eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg fem) life, to which you were called and about which you confessed the good confession before many witnesses.
1 Timothy 6:16	the only one having immortality, the one dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no person has seen or is able to see, to him be honor and might forever (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | nom sg neut), Amen.
2 Timothy 1:9	who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time eternal (aiōniōn | αἰωνίων | gen pl masc),
2 Timothy 2:10	On account of this I am enduring all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may experience the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg fem) glory.
Titus 1:2	for the sake of the hope of eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg fem) life, which God, who does not lie, promised before times eternal (aiōniōn | αἰωνίων | gen pl masc),

αἰώνιος | billmounce.com Is a well know geek schola

 

[The Learner]

Titus 3:7	so that having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg fem) life.
Philemon 1:15	Perhaps he was separated from you for a while for this reason, that you might have him back forever (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg masc),
Hebrews 5:9	And once made perfect, he became for all those who obey him the source of eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg fem) salvation,
Hebrews 6:2	instruction about cleansing rites and laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg neut) judgment.
Hebrews 9:12	he entered once for all into the Most Holy Place, not by means of the blood of goats and calves, but by means of his own blood, thus obtaining an eternal (aiōnian | αἰωνίαν | acc sg fem) redemption.
Hebrews 9:14	how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg neut) Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to worship the living God!
Hebrews 9:15	And for this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg fem) inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under that first covenant.
Hebrews 13:20	And may the God of peace, who, by the blood of the eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg fem) covenant, brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep, our Lord Jesus,
1 Peter 5:10	And the God of all grace, the one who has called you into his eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) glory in Christ, will, after you have suffered a little while, himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you.
2 Peter 1:11	For in this way entry into the eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly provided for you.
1 John 1:2	this life was revealed, and we have seen it and are bearing witness and proclaiming to you the eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life that existed with the Father and was revealed to us —
1 John 2:25	And this is the promise that he made to us — eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
1 John 3:15	Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life abiding in him.
1 John 5:11	And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:13	I am writing these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life — you who believe in the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:20	And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This one is the true God and eternal (aiōnios | αἰώνιος | nom sg fem) life.
Jude 1:7	Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, which indulged in sexual immorality in the same way as the angels and pursued unnatural desire, are exhibited as an example by undergoing the punishment of eternal (aiōniou | αἰωνίου | gen sg neut) fire.
Jude 1:21	Keep yourselves in the love of God as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to grant you eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg fem) life.
Revelation 14:6	Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal (aiōnion | αἰώνιον | acc sg neut) gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth — to every nation, tribe, language, and people.

 

[The Learner]

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the word "torment". You also have a complete misunderstanding of God and his nature.

Have you read the old covenant lately? Plagues....

 

[keithr]

The argument you present has many errors.

1. Jesus spoke Hebrew/Aramaic not Syriac /Peshito

I trusted the source without investigating it's accuracy. A quick search shows that Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic. However, the main point is still correct, the Syriac Peshitta translation of the New Testament was written in the first or second century and is older than any Greek manuscript extant.

Let us for a moment assume your sources are correct (assume not accept): The fact of two resurrections are unambiguously clear without verse 5!

Verse 6 calls those of the first resurrection blessed. So are you saying verse 6 is invalid also?

No.

The verse 6 resurrected reign with Jesus for a thousand years. Is this invalid also?

It should be obvious that I don't consider verse 6 as invalid, because I had referred to it in my explanation ("the resurrected Church that had just been described in the previous verse as living in heaven, seated on thrones, reigning and judging with Jesus for 1,000 years. Jesus and the Church will be reigning for 1,000 years over the rest of mankind (the rest of the dead), blessing and judging them").

After 1,000 years Satan is released and goes and deceives again masses of humanity- defeated and cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet already are (not were)!

God establishes His GWT raises the rest of the dead and then judges them!

I presume by GWT you mean "great white throne". This is the only time that the throne is described as being white, but that doesn't mean that God only "established" his throne at the end of the 1,000 years! God is described as sitting on His throne throughout the book of Revelation, from before the great tribulation and the 1,000 year reign started. As Paul wrote, Hebrews 12:2 (WEB):

(2) looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.​

Jesus didn't sit down beside an empty throne! God has been on His throne from way before the 1,000 years reign of Christ.

So verse five merely describes teh fact of what takes place.

1. Teh martyred during the trib are raised and called blessed,

All Christians have a part in the first resurrection and will reign with Jesus, not just those that are martyred. 1 Corinthians 6:2 (WEB):

(2) Don’t you know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?​

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (WEB):

​

(16) ... The dead in Christ will rise first,​

(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​

2. they reign for 1,000 years
3. After the 1,000 years, another rebellion that is defeated.
4. Teh GWT is set and the rest of the dead are resurrected!

It does not make sense that the rest of the dead, a vast proportion of everyone that has ever lived, would only be resurrected at the end of the 1,000 years of reign. Jesus' sacrifice of his life paid the penalty for sin for everyone, so that God is justified in resurrecting everyone to perfect life, and that is what the 1,000 year reign is for - to restore everyone to perfect life. Those who have never heard of Jesus will learn about him during the 1,000 years reign. At the point of resurrection all of their sins will have been forgiven. They are judged according to their works from then on, during the 1,000 year reign of Christ. At the end of the 1,000 years everyone is judged and those unworthy of eternal life are put to death for a second time, so that all remaining alive will be perfect and faithful, and there will no longer be a need for the punishent for sin (death).

1 Corinthians 15:25-28 (WEB):

(25) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.​

(26) The last enemy that will be abolished is death.​

(27) For, “He put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when he says, “All things are put in subjection”, it is evident that he is excepted who subjected all things to him.​

(28) When all things have been subjected to him, then the Son will also himself be subjected to him who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all.​

 

[keithr]

Luke 20:36 King James Version

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.​

Jesus said angels don't die! that is enough for me. I don't need someone playing a game of twister with the Word of God !

That's sad . You should try harder to harmonise all Scripture verses to be more sure that you understand God's word to us.

Again, the Sriptures say that only God has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16), and that, John 5:26 (WEB):

(26) For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.​

So Jesus now also has an immortal nature since his resurrection (he is the firstborn of a new creation). And Christians are also promised that they will become immortal too:

1 John 3:2 (WEB):

(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.​

1 Corinthians 15:54 (WEB):

(54) But when this perishable body will have become imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”​

Romans 8:29 (WEB):

(29) For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.​

I can't find any Scriptural evidence that suggests that angels will be or are immortal, and 1 Timothy 6:16 implies that they are not immortal. Even Jesus was not immortal until after his resurrection.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jehovah is a God of justice( Deut 32:4)--an eye for an eye= perfect justice= Gods justice. So for 70-100 years of an unrepented life Jehovah could not or would not punish one for trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of suffering. You are being deceived. Because your teachers do not know God. Jesus warned that many wouldn't-John 15:20-21

So besides denying the Word of God, you are now judging people you do not know or ever met and deciding whether they are saved or not? Wow! Your arrogance will bring you down.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I trusted the source without investigating it's accuracy. A quick search shows that Syriac is a dialect of Aramaic. However, the main point is still correct, the Syriac Peshitta translation of the New Testament was written in the first or second century and is older than any Greek manuscript extant.

Doesn't make it the most accurate. the original works were written in Hebrew and Greek! BTW the oldest NT in existence is the Codex Sinaiticus c. 325-350, while the oldest Syriac/Peshito is 459-460. Maybe you should do a little more investigasting. It calls into question all you say when you are this wildly off.

It should be obvious that I don't consider verse 6 as invalid, because I had referred to it in my explanation ("the resurrected Church that had just been described in the previous verse as living in heaven, seated on thrones, reigning and judging with Jesus for 1,000 years. Jesus and the Church will be reigning for 1,000 years over the rest of mankind (the rest of the dead), blessing and judging them").

Verse 6 is just those who were beheaded for not taking the mark or worshipping the image. That is not the church but tribulation saints.

I presume by GWT you mean "great white throne". This is the only time that the throne is described as being white, but that doesn't mean that God only "established" his throne at the end of the 1,000 years! God is described as sitting on His throne throughout the book of Revelation, from before the great tribulation and the 1,000 year reign started. As Paul wrote, Hebrews 12:2 (WEB):

(2) looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Jesus didn't sit down beside an empty throne! God has been on His throne from way before the 1,000 years reign of Christ.

Irrelevant. We are disussing a specific event at a specific point in time.

All Christians have a part in the first resurrection and will reign with Jesus, not just those that are martyred. 1 Corinthians 6:2 (WEB):

(2) Don’t you know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (WEB):
(16) ... The dead in Christ will rise first,(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

Christians will be resurrected and the living caught up in the rapture which occurs before the resurrection of Rev. 20:6. Here is the verse again :

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

No mention of the rapture or church saints Just those who didn't worship teh beast or take his mark! Do not add to the Verse things not there.

It does not make sense that the rest of the dead, a vast proportion of everyone that has ever lived, would only be resurrected at the end of the 1,000 years of reign. Jesus' sacrifice of his life paid the penalty for sin for everyone, so that God is justified in resurrecting everyone to perfect life, and that is what the 1,000 year reign is for - to restore everyone to perfect life. Those who have never heard of Jesus will learn about him during the 1,000 years reign. At the point of resurrection all of their sins will have been forgiven. They are judged according to their works from then on, during the 1,000 year reign of Christ. At the end of the 1,000 years everyone is judged and those unworthy of eternal life are put to death for a second time, so that all remaining alive will be perfect and faithful, and there will no longer be a need for the punishent for sin (death).

It doesn't matter if it makes sense to you or me or anyone! It is what teh bible clearly and unambiguously says, so we need to accept it and not try to retranslate what God inspired!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That's sad . You should try harder to harmonise all Scripture verses to be more sure that you understand God's word to us.

Again, the Sriptures say that only God has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16), and that, John 5:26 (WEB):

(26) For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.​

So Jesus now also has an immortal nature since his resurrection (he is the firstborn of a new creation). And Christians are also promised that they will become immortal too:

1 John 3:2 (WEB):

(2) Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is.​

1 Corinthians 15:54 (WEB):

(54) But when this perishable body will have become imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then what is written will happen: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”​

Romans 8:29 (WEB):

(29) For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.​

I can't find any Scriptural evidence that suggests that angels will be or are immortal, and 1 Timothy 6:16 implies that they are not immortal. Even Jesus was not immortal until after his resurrection.

Maybe you should harmonize and accept Gods Word instead of the Watchtower! Only God has inherent immortality. that means only God is eternal with no beginning and no end. Any thing he created He bestows immortality if He chooses. and He did so for angels and all mankind. Our bodies die (and we will be restored to them later) but our souls and spirits continue on for God made them immortal!

If Jesus said angels do not die- then angels do not die!

 

[Keiw]

So besides denying the Word of God, you are now judging people you do not know or ever met and deciding whether they are saved or not? Wow! Your arrogance will bring you d

So besides denying the Word of God, you are now judging people you do not know or ever met and deciding whether they are saved or not? Wow! Your arrogance will bring you down.

A house divided, will not stand= 40,000 trinity based religions-- If you refuse to believe this its you denying the word of God--A true mark of the 1 single religion that has Jesus= 1 Cor 1:10--Unity of thought( all of Gods 1 truth) No division. your 40,000 religionssssssss cant seem to understand that simple bible milk.

 

[keithr]

Doesn't make it the most accurate. the original works were written in Hebrew and Greek! BTW the oldest NT in existence is the Codex Sinaiticus c. 325-350, while the oldest Syriac/Peshito is 459-460. Maybe you should do a little more investigasting. It calls into question all you say when you are this wildly off.

Well the Codex Sinaiticus doesn't have Revelation verse 5 at all. It says (from Codex Sinaiticus):

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and the power of judging was given to them; and I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God; and of those who had not worshiped the beast, nor his image, and had not received his mark on their forehead, nor on their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

5 [no verse]​

6 Blessed and holy is he that has part in this first resurrection; over such the second death has no power; but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.​

Verse 6 is just those who were beheaded for not taking the mark or worshipping the image. That is not the church but tribulation saints.

Don't forget that most of Revelation is symbolic and not literal. The beast that is mentioned, referring back to chapter 13, is generally not considered to be an actual beast, but symbolic of governments, powers, the Roman empire, papacy, Islam, etc. (chapter 17 explains that it represents kings or kingdoms over a long time period - it's not referring to the period of the great tribluation). Likewise the beheaded souls, mentioned in the same sentence, (what does a soul look like, and does it have a head? and very few Chirstians have been beheaded) are not literally beheaded - it is a figure of speech. It means that Christians must not be self-willed, they must be "headless" and do God's will and testify of Jesus and God's word, that they should lay down their lives in the service and defense of the truth. As the apostle Paul said,
"I die daily" (1 Corinthians 15:31).

I believe verse four is referring to the resurrected Church, who reign with Jesus and are represented as elders sitting on thrones and wearing crowns (reigning as kings), whereas John didn't know who the tribulation saints were and had to be told by an elder (a member of the resurrected Church). They are not said to sit on thrones but merely to be "before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple" (Revelation 7:15).

Christians will be resurrected and the living caught up in the rapture which occurs before the resurrection of Rev. 20:6.

Christians are the first to be resurrected - their resurrection is the first resurrection. Revelation 20:6 is talking about the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

No mention of the rapture or church saints Just those who didn't worship teh beast or take his mark! Do not add to the Verse things not there.

There is no mention of the tribulation either!

It doesn't matter if it makes sense to you or me or anyone! It is what teh bible clearly and unambiguously says, so we need to accept it and not try to retranslate what God inspired!

I'm sure many people would not consider the book of Revelation to be clear and unambiguous!