A response to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment (ECT)

[keithr]

No actually the woman who sits on the beast is a religious system. Women symbolically always refer to religious systems. That is why Israel when they were in idolatry God called whores. For they were chasing false religion.

Right, Revelation 17:18 (WEB):

(18) The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”​

Rome and the Vatican was/is a city that reigns over kings of other nations - it's referring to Papacy and the Roman Catholic church. It's nothing to do with the great tribulation and tribulation saints, it applies to the Gospel age, the time that all Christians go through.

How you get 17 kings is beyond me.

Err, really? 10 + 7 = 17. Revelation 17:9-12 (WEB):

(9) Here is the mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.​

(10) They are seven kings. Five have fallen, the one is, the other has not yet come. When he comes, he must continue a little while.​

(11) The beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is of the seven; and he goes to destruction.​

(12) The ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority as kings, with the beast, for one hour.​

But the antichrist is a man and is clearly identified as such from the numerous passages that describe and define him!

The beast is not the antichrist. Besides there are many antichrists - 1 John 2:18 (ESV):

(18) Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.​

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Many things in the NT concern only the little flock.

I know what the lie of the Watchtower and its association says, but the little flock is for all who must be born again and that number is way more than 144,000.

Why don't you explain the 144,000 in revelation and prove it means the little flock and show what :

males only mean.
what virgins mean.
what 12,000 means
what from twelve tribes mean!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You seem to be assuming that the descriptions of the beast, etc. are descriptions of events during the Great tribulation. I don't think that they are.

You are free to think what ever you wish- but the bible says differently. I could give yo solid references, but that would mean buying a well verses book on end times from a non-JW source which I know you are forbidden to do.

The book of Revelation was a revelation from Jesus showing "his servants the things which must happen soon" (Revelation 1:1). It gives an overview of all of the time from then until now, and continuing into the future. The letters to the seven churches (chapters 1 - 3) are descriptive of seven consecutive periods of time over the last nearly 2,000 years

Correct.

After that chapters 4 & 5 describe the throne in heaven and Jesus being worthy to take the scroll from God and open it

Correct

In chapter 6 Jesus opens the scroll and the great tribulation begins. In chapter 7 the 144,000 Israelites are sealed, and the tribulation continues. Then the tribulation saints are seen up in heaven. In chapter 8 the final (seventh) seal is opened and more of God's wrath is poured out on the earth, continuing to the end of chapter 10. Chapter 11 tells of the two witnesses, and then the final (seventh) trumpet sounds marking the end of the great tribulation

Incorrect. You forget the vials

. Chapters 12, 13 and 17 contain repeated descriptions of the false, anti-Christ kingdom during the Gospel age, leading up to the great tribulation. This is where the symbols of the beasts are used - they're not describing events during the great tribulation.

Incorrect. these are end times events.

The tribulation saints "are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood" (Revelation 7:14). It doesn't say that they "had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God", nor that they "didn’t worship the beast nor his image, and didn’t receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand". It was the Christians during the Gospel age, not the great tribulation, who fall into that category.

In Rev. 7 it doesn't, but iin REv. 20 it most certainly does. Just because you have carved up Revelation in a mish mosh of uncoordinated time frames doesn't alter that it flows well and smooth from teh church age, the end of teh dhuch age, the tribulation period and the return of Jesus, the 1000 year kingdom of Jesus and then eternity.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Right, Revelation 17:18 (WEB):

(18) The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”
Rome and the Vatican was/is a city that reigns over kings of other nations - it's referring to Papacy and the Roman Catholic church. It's nothing to do with the great tribulation and tribulation saints, it applies to the Gospel age, the time that all Christians go through.

Rome has long since not reigned over the kings of the earth! It is the rebuilt city of Babylon which will become a world capitol for the antichrist in the future.

Err, really? 10 + 7 = 17. Revelation 17:9-12 (WEB):

(9) Here is the mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.(10) They are seven kings. Five have fallen, the one is, the other has not yet come. When he comes, he must continue a little while.(11) The beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is of the seven; and he goes to destruction.(12) The ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority as kings, with the beast, for one hour.

well counting the 7 kings OK I see it. but five of those kings had fallen, one was there at Johns time and there was another to come. and then there is the eighth which is of the seven so actually it is 18. And the eighth goes into perdition which marks him as the

The beast is not the antichrist. Besides there are many antichrists - 1 John 2:18 (ESV):

(18) Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

You should read the texts you cite to try to prove me wrong.

John said there is an (singular) antichrist to come. But also there were many antichrists in Johns day. C'mon this is second grade grammar stuff.
beast/antichrist.

 

[Keiw]

I know what the lie of the Watchtower and its association says, but the little flock is for all who must be born again and that number is way more than 144,000.

Why don't you explain the 144,000 in revelation and prove it means the little flock and show what :

males only mean.
what virgins mean.
what 12,000 means
what from twelve tribes mean!

i Showed what the virgins mean-- 2Chron 20:33--Jehosaphat, although a good king didn't remove the high places( where they sacrificed to false gods by false religion) 2Chron 21:11-- calls it immoral intercourse(having anything to do with false religions and practices) -- Thus being virgins to women referenced that fact-- symbolism for having 0 to do with false religions ever, making them virgins in a sense.
Peter was married thus not literally a virgin to a woman, he is 1 of the144,000.

Israel was Gods chosen, they had12 tribes--But all can see 2 of the tribes listed in Revelation were not of the original12 of OT Israel--spiritual Israel is now Gods chosen. Literal Israel religion outright refuses to do verse 39 of Matt 23.
The great crowd-no man can number-- The only other ones being saved are the little flock-they are the 144,000 bought from the earth as the bride of Christ, to ruleas kings and priests on thrones(Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)

 

[The Learner]

A house divided, will not stand= 40,000 trinity based religions-- If you refuse to believe this its you denying the word of God--A true mark of the 1 single religion that has Jesus= 1 Cor 1:10--Unity of thought( all of Gods 1 truth) No division. your 40,000 religionssssssss cant seem to understand that simple bible milk.

Your source is using a social definition of denomination, not a Theological one. Using that Encylopedia's definition, each Kingdom Hall would be a seperate denomination. The social source is World Christian Encyclopedia (Barrett, Kurian, and Johnson; Oxford University Press).

 

[Keiw]

Your source is using a social definition of denomination, not a Theological one. Using that Encylopedia's definition, each Kingdom Hall would be a seperate denomination.

No it wouldn't-- One truth is taught in every kingdom hall worldwide. By using like the watchtower magazine, worldwide every JW gets the same spiritual feeding week after week, the bible is used right along with the watchtower, to prove the words written in its pages. The same bible reading in every kingdom hall worldwide every week discussed during the midweek meeting. We are taught every utterance from God as Jesus said man must live by them.
Maybe i should have said 40,000 dogma brands of truth in trinity based religions.

 

[keithr]

You are free to think what ever you wish- but the bible says differently. I could give yo solid references, but that would mean buying a well verses book on end times from a non-JW source which I know you are forbidden to do.

You don't seem to take any notice of what I write. To repeat what I wrote in post #242, less than 3 days ago, I am not, nor have ever been, a JW. Nobody can forbid me to read whatever I want to read.

Incorrect. You forget the vials

It's not incorrect. I was just giving a very brief overview, not detailing everything, but even so, the vials/bowls are not mentioned in chapters 8, 10 and 11 that I was commenting on; they are mentioned in chapters 15 - 17.

Incorrect. these are end times events.

Just saying that I am incorrect isn't the slightest bit convincing! Explain why you think it is incorrect. For example, what does symbolism of the woman and her child represent? And how long does the time period of 1260 days represent? Why does the angel explain to John in Revelation 17:10 that of the 7 kings/kingdoms 5 had already fallen (i.e. were in the past, in times before the revelation was given), one was a current king (ruling at that time) and the seventh king was to come in the future? How can that be if the beast was only going to appear in the great tribulation which was far into the future?

In Rev. 7 it doesn't, but iin REv. 20 it most certainly does. Just because you have carved up Revelation in a mish mosh of uncoordinated time frames doesn't alter that it flows well and smooth from teh church age, the end of teh dhuch age, the tribulation period and the return of Jesus, the 1000 year kingdom of Jesus and then eternity.

You're just making the assumption/guess that those referred to in Rev. 20:4 are the tribulation saints referred to in Rev. 7:14. That means that no Christians from the Apostles through to today could have a part in the first resurrection, and so we will have a part with "the rest of the dead". So only the tribulations saints would be resurrected such that "the second death has no power" over them (Rev. 20:6), because they will be immortal. So Paul's teaching on the resurrection for Christian's in 1 Corinthians 15 was wrong. That is not harmonising the Scriptures - I think that you must be wrong in your reasoning!

 

[keithr]

You should read the texts you cite to try to prove me wrong.

John said there is an (singular) antichrist to come. But also there were many antichrists in Johns day. C'mon this is second grade grammar stuff.
beast/antichrist.

1 John 2:22 (WEB):

(22) Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the Antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.​

1 John 4:3 (WEB):

(3) and every spirit who doesn’t confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God, and this is the spirit of the Antichrist, of whom you have heard that it comes. Now it is in the world already.​

 

[Ronald Nolette]

i Showed what the virgins mean-- 2Chron 20:33--Jehosaphat, although a good king didn't remove the high places( where they sacrificed to false gods by false religion) 2Chron 21:11-- calls it immoral intercourse(having anything to do with false religions and practices) -- Thus being virgins to women referenced that fact-- symbolism for having 0 to do with false religions ever, making them virgins in a sense.
Peter was married thus not literally a virgin to a woman, he is 1 of the144,000.

Israel was Gods chosen, they had12 tribes--But all can see 2 of the tribes listed in Revelation were not of the original12 of OT Israel--spiritual Israel is now Gods chosen. Literal Israel religion outright refuses to do verse 39 of Matt 23.
The great crowd-no man can number-- The only other ones being saved are the little flock-they are the 144,000 bought from the earth as the bride of Christ, to ruleas kings and priests on thrones(Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)

Spiritual Israel is saved Jews . Period!

 

[Keiw]

Spiritual Israel is saved Jews . Period!

No its anyone serving the true living God-YHWH(Jehovah) and accepting his son as the Messiah.(The Fathers way)Matt 7:21) No Jews do that and remain in the Jewish religion. They serve the right God( but not his way) and reject the Messiah. Jesus didn't speak to 7 synagogues in revelation, because he is not with them.
A new religion began back then-Acts 24:45--And Paul went around city to city setting up congregations.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No its anyone serving the true living God-YHWH(Jehovah) and accepting his son as the Messiah.(The Fathers way)Matt 7:21) No Jews do that and remain in the Jewish religion. They serve the right God( but not his way) and reject the Messiah. Jesus didn't speak to 7 synagogues in revelation, because he is not with them.
A new religion began back then-Acts 24:45--And Paul went around city to city setting up congregations.

The bible says Israel is the children of Abraham, I saac and Jacob and spiritual Israel are teh saved remnant from those 12 tribes! Saved Gentiles are saved Gentiles ands in this era saved Jews and Gentiles are the one true church

 

[Keiw]

The bible says Israel is the children of Abraham, I saac and Jacob and spiritual Israel are teh saved remnant from those 12 tribes! Saved Gentiles are saved Gentiles ands in this era saved Jews and Gentiles are the one true church

There are 0 saved in the Jewish religion. Those who leave that religion to follow Jesus may be saved, but like the rest of us--must endure until their end to be saved( Matt 10:22

 

[The Learner]

1 John 2:22 (WEB):

(22) Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the Antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.​

1 John 4:3 (WEB):

(3) and every spirit who doesn’t confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God, and this is the spirit of the Antichrist, of whom you have heard that it comes. Now it is in the world already.​

Huh, what does gnosticism have to do with what Ronald wrote?

 

[The Learner]

Spiritual Israel is saved Jews . Period!

Nowhere does it was that "Peter ... is 1 of the144,000."

 

[The Learner]

No its anyone serving the true living God-YHWH(Jehovah) and accepting his son as the Messiah.(The Fathers way)Matt 7:21) No Jews do that and remain in the Jewish religion. They serve the right God( but not his way) and reject the Messiah. Jesus didn't speak to 7 synagogues in revelation, because he is not with them.
A new religion began back then-Acts 24:45--And Paul went around city to city setting up congregations.

Jesus’ Letter to the Church in Philadelphia
7 “Write this to the angel of the church in Philadelphia:

“Here is a message from the one who is holy and true, the one who holds the key of David. When he opens something, it cannot be closed. And when he closes something, it cannot be opened.

8 “I know what you do. I have put before you an open door that no one can close. I know you are weak, but you have followed my teaching. You were not afraid to speak my name. 9 Listen! There is a group[a] that belongs to Satan. They say they are Jews, but they are liars. They are not true Jews. I will make them come before you and bow at your feet. They will know that you are the people I have loved. 10 You followed my command to endure patiently. So I will keep you from the time of trouble that will come to the world—a time that will test everyone living on earth.

11 “I am coming soon. Hold on to the faith you have, so that no one can take away your crown. 12 Those who win the victory will be pillars in the temple of my God. I will make that happen for them. They will never again have to leave God’s temple. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God. That city is the new Jerusalem. It is coming down out of heaven from my God. I will also write my new name on them. 13 Everyone who hears this should listen to what the Spirit says to the churches.

 

[The Learner]

There are 0 saved in the Jewish religion. Those who leave that religion to follow Jesus may be saved, but like the rest of us--must endure until their end to be saved( Matt 10:22

Matthew 22:32
God said, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ So they were not still dead, because he is the God only of living people.”

Note: they are not totally asleep in the grave.

 

[Keiw]

Jesus’ Letter to the Church in Philadelphia
7 “Write this to the angel of the church in Philadelphia:

“Here is a message from the one who is holy and true, the one who holds the key of David. When he opens something, it cannot be closed. And when he closes something, it cannot be opened.

8 “I know what you do. I have put before you an open door that no one can close. I know you are weak, but you have followed my teaching. You were not afraid to speak my name. 9 Listen! There is a group[a] that belongs to Satan. They say they are Jews, but they are liars. They are not true Jews. I will make them come before you and bow at your feet. They will know that you are the people I have loved. 10 You followed my command to endure patiently. So I will keep you from the time of trouble that will come to the world—a time that will test everyone living on earth.

11 “I am coming soon. Hold on to the faith you have, so that no one can take away your crown. 12 Those who win the victory will be pillars in the temple of my God. I will make that happen for them. They will never again have to leave God’s temple. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God. That city is the new Jerusalem. It is coming down out of heaven from my God. I will also write my new name on them. 13 Everyone who hears this should listen to what the Spirit says to the churches.

Right to churches not synagogues. But the actual Greek word used translates-congregation, not church.

 

[Keiw]

Matthew 22:32
God said, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ So they were not still dead, because he is the God only of living people.”

Note: they are not totally asleep in the grave.

They are promised to be resurrected, that is what God of the living meant. To God they are alive because they lived righteous and will be resurrected--that occurs at Rev 20, that is Past the tribulation and Armageddon, neither have occurred yet.

 

[keithr]

Huh, what does gnosticism have to do with what Ronald wrote?

Huh? I just quoted two verses of Scripture. What's that got to do with gnosticism?