Behold
Well-Known Member
Is it best to wait for the spirit to be poured out on all flesh? Or is it wise to realize that the Spirit is in all the born again, already, and what that means?
Same "Spirit".
Moving on from Christs principles?
- Thread starter MatthewG
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Is it best to wait for the spirit to be poured out on all flesh? Or is it wise to realize that the Spirit is in all the born again, already, and what that means?
Same "Spirit".
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And it is just tragic that you veered away from Pauls teaching to promote a false Gospel of faith in Christ which demands sinless perfection.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Im not certain why you keep posting that same lie over and over.
Do you have a voice in your head that says..>"Ronald, go everyday to Behold's Thread and post the same thing over and over, as i have commanded you".
Dont listen to that voice tomorrow when you get the idea (voice in your head)....to come again to post the same lie.
Really.
Cast that voice out., as its not of God.
Listen i have not said , or posted, or teach in real life that God, Christ, Paul, or the Cross demands anything of us, regarding out Salvation.
In fact im the Teacher that does not TEACH "works and enduring and self effort, and law and commandments" as a condition of or to be born again.
Paul's Gospel is FREE from anything but FAITH. = Justification By Faith. without works or deeds of the law.
And once we are "made righteous".... that is not going to change based on what you are thinking about or any work of the flesh.
See, its the BLood of JESUS that cleanses us from our sin, and keeps us "made righteous".
We can't do that for ourselves by confessing sin, or doing penance.
Listen,
This is the eternal effect of being born again. = we are always..."made righteous" by the Blood Atonement.
Forever.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Your understanding of these things is askew just as it was for Israel. Understand that precedence.
As for what you say here regarding Paul being an apostle to the gentiles, an apostle by definition is simply one sent. Is/was Paul the only one sent? Of course not, many are sent as the commandment was to "make disciples of all men."
As for correctors of scripture...both Jesus and Paul were also correctors, stating what people had read but making clarification ("but I tell you", said Jesus). And Jesus and Paul also referred to marriage which had unknowingly been practiced for millennia, by those not fully understanding that it pointed to the Bride Groom and the Church-- Paul saying, "I tell you a mystery." By your claim above, you as much as condemn them both, let alone anyone who has or does likewise by the same Spirit.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Many times Jesus stated the terms of receiving the Holy Spirit, saying, "With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given" and "For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away", warning also, "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Such is the fate of those who were and are given to God who did not and do not produce fruit and hinder the Spirit, but wait until the Judgement.
So no, the Holy Spirit is not given equally to all who are born again--not until the end, not until the Judgement.
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
The clean meats were passed down for the first sacrifice by God, Himself. Don't forget Noah was the first person God said could eat meat. And not just clean meat but "everything that moved." It was for sacrifices that ONLY clean meat was designated.
No one kept the Sabbath until it was given to the Jews to keep.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Not all who go to church are born again. But only the born again get the Spirit. He doesn't come in different sizes. But it is up to Him how much of His power He releases to a person. The more passionate someone is for Christ, the more power they will receive, along with higher gifts.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
and @ScottA
Read Acts of the Apostles 2:14+ , Peter's sermon. He points to the Day of Pentecost being the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy. The "last days are going on ever since the Day of Pentecost. As far as outpourings of the Holy Spirit, the Day of Pentecost was the early rain, and we are 100 years into the latter rain. But even in the dry season (dark ages) God always had a remnant.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
God saves us against our will, right? You might as well say it outright, Ron. Not many first-rodeoers here - lol. We know what the exclamation points are about. You're mad
because we're not buyin' the T-U-L-I-P stuff.(I just can't seem to resist. This insomnia is drivin' me...)
Amen,Matthew....& In that study of, reading of, then must come the APPLICATION OF ! My favorite version & form of bible too.
" This version is a Thompson Chain Study Bible KJV LARGE PRINT (They have other versions Idc what a person will get as long as they will read it)" Matthew.
" This version is a Thompson Chain Study Bible KJV LARGE PRINT (They have other versions Idc what a person will get as long as they will read it)" Matthew.
I can agree with your thoughts.
Yes we rebel in the flesh against the Spirit of God @ times in our life but the question is........when does that rebellion stop God or cut God from our lives he is trying to produce?
Rebellion is as the " sin of witchcraft" which is of their father the devil.
God is merciful, long-suffering & faithful but when is it enough and then God let's one go in it's OWN way.
Backsliding & apostasy; both terms reveal rebellion against. I am of the belief BOTH are possible bc we are flesh.
When ONE is a Pauline worshipper then they neglect to worship God through his whole word, inspired by the Spirit.
What in the NT is not God's gospel, which is Jesus!
Do the other apostles & their inspirations not count in our growth towards the mark.....only Paul to some!
Even to this point that " if we sin, we have an advocate.........."
You should try it, getting basic Greek lessons, instead of pitting one member against the other.…another greek “scholar”
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
This translation is a bit misleading in my opinion. It reads as if the Apostle is exhorting his readers toward maturity into a state of perfection by moving beyond the elementary teachings about "the Christ." This is not what he means to say.
In this instance, Paul is writing as if he is giving a speech or a lecture. When he says, "leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ" he indicates that he has said all that he intends to say about that subject and he intends to move on to a related subject. Think in terms of an outline. Paul is leading his readers through his outline point-by-point. We are going to leave the first major point on the outline in order to press forward toward the conclusion of my talk. When he says, "Let us press on to "maturity" he means to say, "Let us press on toward the completion of my talk."
Paul has an outline in front of him. It shows what information he wants to convey. The information is broken up into sections that flow logically step-by-step through his written appeal that Hebrew Christians resist the pressure to abandon the faith. At this point in his argument, having established the primary and fundamental aspect of being "the messiah." he intends to move to his next point, which is to say, "We have spent enough time on this point, let's move point-by-point toward the conclusion."
He isn't talking about maturing in the faith, he is talking about completing his argument, by moving on to the next subject.
6:1-2 This list of doctrines relates to issues shared by Judaism and Christianity. However, they are primarily Jewish (i.e., washings and laying on of hands). These would be doctrines that believing and unbelieving Jews would agree on easily. They are not the important theological issues related to Jesus of Nazareth as the prophesied Messiah.
There is a plausible theory that the first phrase should translate archē (elementary teachings) as "origins of the Messiah" (cf. A. B. Bruce, The Epistle to the Hebrews, p. 197). Could it be that a group of Jews were disillusioned with the growing Gentile flavor of Christianity and were questioning how Jesus had fulfilled OT prophecy and expectations? Could the list of Jewish doctrines be the focus of a discussion about a possible return to the Mosaic covenant for salvation, instead of Jesus?
6:1
NASB, NJB"elementary teachings about the Christ"
NKJV"the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ"
NRSV"the basic teachings about Christ"
TEV"the first lessons of the Christian message"
The Greek term archē has a large semantical field. The basic thrust is the beginning of some thing (the first cause of authority/rule). It is the contextual opposite of teleios ("maturity" Heb. 6:1b).
The problem of understanding this phrase is that the principles enumerated in Heb. 6:1-2 do not relate to the Messiah as much as traditional teachings of Judaism. This is one of the textual reason for the supposition that the book was written to a Jewish synagogue audience (cf. Heb. 10:25) of both believing and unbelieving Jews (cf. R. C. Graze, No Easy Salvation).
"let us press on" This is a present passive subjunctive, "let us be borne." The focus is on the continual provision by a divine agent! They will advance toward maturity if they allow the Spirit the freedom to motivate them. This very Greek term was used by the Pythagorean philosophers for advancing to a higher stage of understanding (cf. A. T. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 373).
NASB, TEV"maturity"
NKJV, NRSV"perfection"
NJB"completion"
This is a form of the Greek term teleios, which is used only here in the NT. See Special Topic at Heb. 7:11. It is the contextual opposite of archē of Heb. 6:1a (basic principles). These believers must move beyond those theological topics which they have in common with their Jewish friends and co-worshipers.
"repentance. . .faith" These are the old and new covenant obligations, one negative and one positive.
Repentance is a difficult topic because of the confusion over its meaning. The Hebrew term reflects a change of action while the Greek term reflects a change of mind. Repentance is the turning from a self-centered, self-directed life to a God-centered, God-directed life.
1. Jesus connected lack of repentance with perishing (cf. Luke 13:3,5 and 2 Pet. 3:9)
2. repentance is linked as the companion obligation to faith (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 2:38, 41; 3:16; 19; 20:21)
3. God is even affirmed as being the source of repentance (cf. Acts 5:31; 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25)
6:2 "washings" The plural is never used for Christian baptism, but for OT ceremonial ablutions (cf. Mark 7:4; Heb. 9:10). These three pairs of doctrines are not uniquely Christian. They seem to be common doctrines with Judaism, particularly those which Pharisees shared with Christianity.
"laying on of hands" This is used in several senses in the OT and NT. It shows association with
1. setting one aside to God's chosen task (cf. Num. 27:18,23; Deut. 34:9; Acts 6:6; 13:3; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6)
2. identifying with a sacrifice
a. priest (cf. Exod.29:10,15,19; Lev. 16:21; Num. 8:12)
b. laypersons (cf. Lev. 1:4; 3:2,8; 4:4,15,24; 2 Chr. 29:23
3. identifying with a stoning victim (cf. Lev. 24:14)
4. praying for blessing (cf. Matt. 19:13,15)
5. praying for healing (cf. Matt. 9:18; Mark 5:23; 6:5; 7:32; 8:23; 16:18; Luke 4:40; 13:13; Acts 9:17; 28:8)
6. praying for receiving the Spirit (cf. Acts 8:17-19; 19:6)
"the resurrection. . .eternal judgment" The Pharisees and Essenes (i.e., the Dead Sea Scrolls community) held these eschatological doctrines in common with Christianity.
1. Are verses 2-4 a list of Christian essentials or truths of Judaism?
2. Does the book of Hebrews teach "falling from grace"? Why or why not?
3. Why is the historical setting of this book so important to a proper interpretation?
4. Does the Bible teach that the truly redeemed will hold out until the end or that those who hold out in faith to the end are the redeemed?
5. Are those spoken to in verses 4-6 believers or unbelievers? Why?
6. How are the "you" of Heb. 6:9 related to the "those" of Heb. 6:4?
7. Describe the persecution the believers were facing.
8. What are the two unchangeable things of Heb. 6:18?
9. How are both God's sovereignty and human freewill balanced in Heb. 6:18?
10. How are the character of God and the finished work of Christ related in Heb. 6:13-20?
A bit of background info @MatthewG-Hope this helps.
Johann
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
One more thing, Matthew.
Verse one reads: "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ . . ." and It might be helpful to unpack this sentence a bit.
the doctrine of THE Christ.
I think Paul means to say, "What the Bible says about "the anointed one:" his role, his identity, his purpose, and his status among human beings."
the principles
The Greek word here is arche:beginning. The apostle refers to the beginning of his argument, which rests on what the Bible has to say about the coming "anointed one", "the messiah", "the Christ." Paul began his argument with that foundational information and he wishes to move his argument beyond that point toward its implications for the Hebrew people.
go on unto perfection:
The Greek word here is teleiotēta:perfection and in this context, I believe Paul means "completeness." He wants to move his argument beyond the arche:beginning, toward the teleiotēta:completion of his argument. In other words, he relates to his readers that he has more to say about "the Christ" than what can be known from the basic idea of "the Christ."
The Apostle intends to move forward with his argument, explaining the way of God more accurately, and having established that it was right and fitting that the messiah be a man, he will go on to demonstrate from the scriptures how Jesus, the Messiah, fulfills God's will for the Hebrew people more completely.
Behold
Well-Known Member
As i was discussing with you.
Paul is "special".
He is the "apostle to the Gentiles", called to be so, After Jesus was back in Heaven.
The other 11, are not this "office".
Also, the Gospel that we are to teach and preach, is for the "time of the Gentiles"< given to us by the "Apostle to the Gentiles". = Paul
Its this.
2 Corinthians 5:19.
You'll notice that Paul wrote most of the Epistles and doctrine for the Body of Christ.
Behold
Well-Known Member
That verse has nothing to do with receiving the Holy Spirit.
That verse is describing revelation knowledge and "sowing and reaping".
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
More heresy either one has Gods Spirit in them or they don’t . God gives different gifts of the spirit to individuals to use building up the body of Christ yet it’s the same Spirit of God at work in believers . And the entire 8th chapter of Roman’s exposes your error on the Holy Spirit .
hope this helps !!!
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