St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
I was responding to a comment in your post #283
You weren't concerned?
Soul Sleep yes or no?
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St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
I suppose it depends on where you go with it.
Your signature line zeroed in on the fourth commandment, even providing a link to a Sabbath truth website.
Those who claim that the Sabbath is God's holy day infer that any other day is NOT.
Which would be an indictment on Sunday rest and worship typically.
I've been accused of kneeling at the altar of Baal on Sundays and of sun worship due to the chosen day. (Sun-day)
I took this as an indictment. Clearly meant that way.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
I agree. Being a heretic is WAY underrated. - LOLIt ain't easy bein' unorthodox.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Do you have a title an OP idea? Or would you like me to do it?
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
@BarneyFife -- I took a shower and came back with an idea for a thread.
Feel free to start another if I failed to nail what you wanted to discuss, thanks.
Link below.
Unity of the faith - at what cost?
The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries. Are we there yet? (not by a long shot) Where is the problem? Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity. - Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences? - Does the Body...
www.christianityboard.com
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I can't help noticing quite a difference between concern and indictment. Indictment seems a lot closer to the word "conviction."
I really think what happens is very closely related to the religious liberty issue itself.
The furthest people should go, in my opinion is to warn.
And I think I'm going pick this up in your new thread which, by the way, I think you did an excellent job in titling and OPing.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Thanks.And I think I'm going pick this up in your new thread which, by the way, I think you did an excellent job in titling and OPing.
We look forward to your valuable input.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Bingo! Failure to understand what a “resurrection” is, will lead people to want to believe that they don’t really die but go on living somewhere else in a different form.....but I can’t find such a notion in the Hebrew writings. IOW, the scriptures that Jesus himself used, never meantioned an “afterlife” of any kind. This means that the idea of a conscious afterlife had to come from outside of God’s word at that time. The Christian scriptures were not yet written as such.
The idea of an immortal soul is so entrenched in people’s minds, that it’s hard for them to get their head around what the Bible actually says. The dead are actually dead.
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10....ESV
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.”
According to this scripture....if the living “know” that death will come, and they believed that in death they are in a state of unconsciousness, ‘knowing nothing’......then it makes sense when it goes on to say that even their “love” has “perished” along with other emotions. Do we imagine that “love” would “perish” at death if the dead were conscious?
Yes you are....
That’s it.....the devil said the opposite to what God had told Adam. The devil said “you surely will not die” but God told Adam nothing about an afterlife of any kind. That notion is not in Jewish scripture at all so Jesus never taught it......he did however, expand on how the resurrection would take place.....with two different resurrections....a “first resurrection” for those chosen to rule with Christ in his Kingdom (Rev 20:6)...and a general resurrection of the dead whom Jesus will call out of their graves on earth, once his kingdom is established over the earth. (John 5:28-29)
Jesus confirms this with the resurrection of his friend Lazarus.....reading the account in John 11:11-14 we see that Jesus says that Lazarus is “sleeping” and that he would ‘awaken’ him. So where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him? Was Lazarus disadvantaged by Jesus bringing him back to this life? If he was in heaven or some other place where he was happy, why bring him back only to die again later?
Where did Lazarus’ sister say that she believed he was? Read John 11: 19-24.....
What is “the resurrection on the last day”? It’s not immortal life in heaven......
Bingo! Who has the advantage by lying about something so important? It was the devil who said “you surely will not die”.....when God said the opposite...so who is the liar? And whose side are we taking by promoting that lie?
What will that mean for those who have swallowed the lie? Well said.And finally, I can't help but notice that these hotly contested subjects seem to attract a lot of assaults on people's intelligence. Perhaps I could be allowed two observations: (1) Men and women of very studious and brilliant traits have come down on either side of this question; and (2) rarely is anyone's position ever tied to the spiritual ramifications of their position on the question (which is where, in fact, it seems to me the bulk of concern should be). It seems to nearly always be a matter of intellectual integrity, especially to those who object the loudest.
In general, insults and using derogatory terms for sincerely held beliefs (which seems to be almost universally practiced—after a time, neutral terms that are used unkindly take on a negative connotation) never saved anyone from being deceived. Derision and ad hominem will not help to clear up this confusion.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
You're too kind, Aunty. If I'm right, I have only God and others to thank for helping me to understand. I have this far found very little to shake my convictions, but I've found that confidence is best served with caution. With what all the Bible says about the nature of deception, I have no misconceptions about immunity.Bingo! Failure to understand what a “resurrection” is, will lead people to want to believe that they don’t really die but go on living somewhere else in a different form.....but I can’t find such a notion in the Hebrew writings. IOW, the scriptures that Jesus himself used, never meantioned an “afterlife” of any kind. This means that the idea of a conscious afterlife had to come from outside of God’s word at that time. The Christian scriptures were not yet written as such.
The idea of an immortal soul is so entrenched in people’s minds, that it’s hard for them to get their head around what the Bible actually says. The dead are actually dead.
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10....ESV
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. . . . .Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.”
According to this scripture....if the living “know” that death will come, and they believed that in death they are in a state of unconsciousness, ‘knowing nothing’......then it makes sense when it goes on to say that even their “love” has “perished” along with other emotions. Do we imagine that “love” would “perish” at death if the dead were conscious?
Yes you are....
That’s it.....the devil said the opposite to what God had told Adam. The devil said “you surely will not die” but God told Adam nothing about an afterlife of any kind. That notion is not in Jewish scripture at all so Jesus never taught it......he did however, expand on how the resurrection would take place.....with two different resurrections....a “first resurrection” for those chosen to rule with Christ in his Kingdom (Rev 20:6)...and a general resurrection of the dead whom Jesus will call out of their graves on earth, once his kingdom is established over the earth. (John 5:28-29)
Jesus confirms this with the resurrection of his friend Lazarus.....reading the account in John 11:11-14 we see that Jesus says that Lazarus is “sleeping” and that he would ‘awaken’ him. So where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him? Was Lazarus disadvantaged by Jesus bringing him back to this life? If he was in heaven or some other place where he was happy, why bring him back only to die again later?
Where did Lazarus’ sister say that she believed he was? Read John 11: 19-24.....
What is “the resurrection on the last day”? It’s not immortal life in heaven......
Bingo! Who has the advantage by lying about something so important? It was the devil who said “you surely will not die”.....when God said the opposite...so who is the liar? And whose side are we taking by promoting that lie?
Well said.
Nor does it make them wrong, All choices can be wrong too friend
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
A Christian who has eternal life in them, no, they are the only ones who go straight to the presence of God. Their bodies are in the ground.
The unsaved, would probably be asleep until the judgment. They are not aware of anything until then. If they were aware as if soul sleep was error they would already be being judged, or are floating in outer darkness. It wouldn't be fair for someone who committed adultery 3000 years ago to have 3000 more years punishment than an adulterer who died today. I didn't used to believe in soul sleep, but for the unsaved, I do.
The Old Testament saints have already been resurrected when Jesus was resurrected and were taken to heaven by Jesus when He ascended. The thief on the cross was only asleep for 3 days.
Today there is no one burning in hell. Hell is empty except for the punished angels from the flood. But I could be wrong seeing as the rich man was aware.
Ecclesiastes 9
Easy-to-Read Version
Is Death Fair?
9 I thought about all this very carefully. I saw that God controls what happens to the good and wise people and what they do. People don’t know if they will be loved or hated, and they don’t know what will happen in the future.2 But, there is one thing that happens to everyone—we all die! Death comes to good people and bad people. Death comes to those who are pure and to those who are not pure. Death comes to those who give sacrifices and to those who don’t give sacrifices. Good people will die just as sinners do. Those who make promises to God will die just as those who are afraid to make those promises.
3 Of all the things that happen in this life, the worst thing is that all people end life the same way. But it is also very bad that people always think evil and foolish thoughts. And those thoughts lead to death. 4 There is hope for those who are still alive—it does not matter who they are. But this saying is true:
A living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 The living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything. They have no more reward. People will soon forget them. 6 After people are dead, their love, hate, and jealousy are all gone. And they will never again share in what happens on earth.
Enjoy Life While You Can
7 So go and eat your food now and enjoy it. Drink your wine and be happy. It is all right with God if you do these things. 8 Wear nice clothes and make yourself look good. 9 Enjoy life with the wife you love. Enjoy every day of your short life. God has given you this short life on earth—and it is all you have. So enjoy the work you have to do in this life. 10 Every time you find work to do, do it the best you can. In the grave there is no work. There is no thinking, no knowledge, and there is no wisdom. And we are all going to the place of death.Life Is Not Fair
11 I also saw other things in this life that were not fair. The fastest runner does not always win the race; the strongest soldier does not always win the battle; wise people don’t always get the food; smart people don’t always get the wealth; educated people don’t always get the praise they deserve. When the time comes, bad things can happen to anyone!12 You never know when hard times will come. Like fish in a net or birds in a snare, people are often trapped by some disaster that suddenly falls on them.
The Power of Wisdom
13 I also saw a person doing a wise thing in this life, and it seemed very important to me. 14 There was a small town with a few people in it. A great king fought against that town and put his armies all around it. 15 But there was a wise man in that town. He was poor, but he used his wisdom to save his town. After everything was finished, the people forgot about the poor man. 16 But I still say that wisdom is better than strength. They forgot about the poor man’s wisdom, and the people stopped listening to what he said. But I still believe that wisdom is better.17 Words spoken by the wise are heard more clearly
than those shouted by a leader among fools.
18 Wisdom is better than weapons of war,
but one fool[a] can destroy much good.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Johann said:
-and soul sleep is unbiblical-correct?
Johann.
Can't really declare something unbiblical simply because we disagree with their conclusions. Can we?
-and soul sleep is unbiblical-correct?
Johann.
I still question whether we can call soul sleep unbiblical when supporters gave biblical proofs.
Can't really declare something unbiblical simply because we disagree with their conclusions. Can we?
Isaiah 14:1-11
Easy-to-Read Version
Israel Will Return Home
14 The Lord will again show his love to Jacob. He will again choose the people of Israel. He will give them their land. Then the non-Israelites[a] will join the Israelites, and both will become one family—Jacob’s family. 2 Those nations will bring the Israelites back to their land. The men and women from the other nations will become slaves to Israel. In the past, those people forced the Israelites to become their slaves. But in the future the Israelites will defeat those nations, and Israel will then rule over them in the Lord’s land. 3 In the past, you were slaves. People forced you to work hard. But the Lord will take away the hard work you were forced to do.A Song About the King of Babylon
4 At that time you will begin to sing this song about the king of Babylon:The king was cruel when he ruled us,
but now his rule is finished.
5 The Lord breaks the scepter of evil rulers;
he takes away their power.
6 In anger, the king of Babylon beat the people.
He never stopped beating them.
He was an evil ruler who ruled in anger.
He never stopped hurting people.
7 But now, the whole country rests and is quiet.
Now the people begin to celebrate.
8 You were an evil king,
and now you are finished.
Even the pine trees are happy.
The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice.
They say, “The king chopped us down,
but now the king has fallen,
and he will never stand again.”
9 The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”
11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.
Maggots will be the bed you lie on,
and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.
Isaiah 14:1-11 and 26 shows that those in the grave are alive.
Some Sadducees Try to Trick Jesus
23 That same day some Sadducees came to Jesus. (Sadducees believe that no one will rise from death.) The Sadducees asked Jesus a question. 24 They said, “Teacher, Moses told us that if a married man dies and had no children, his brother must marry the woman. Then they will have children for the dead brother.[a] 25 There were seven brothers among us. The first brother married but died. He had no children. So his brother married the woman. 26 Then the second brother also died. The same thing happened to the third brother and all the other brothers. 27 The woman was the last to die. 28 But all seven men had married her. So when people rise from death, whose wife will she be?”
29 Jesus answered, “You are so wrong! You don’t know what the Scriptures say. And you don’t know anything about God’s power. 30 At the time when people rise from death, there will be no marriage. People will not be married to each other. Everyone will be like the angels in heaven. 31 Surely you have read what God said to you about people rising from death. 32 God said, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ So they were not still dead, because he is the God only of living people.”
33 When the people heard this, they were amazed at Jesus’ teaching.
Which Command Is the Most Important?
34 The Pharisees learned that Jesus had made the Sadducees look so foolish that they stopped trying to argue with him. So the Pharisees had a meeting. 35 Then one of them, an expert in the Law of Moses, asked Jesus a question to test him. 36 He said, “Teacher, which command in the law is the most important?”
37 Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and most important command. 39 And the second command is like the first: ‘Love your neighbor[d] the same as you love yourself.’[e] 40 All of the law and the writings of the prophets take their meaning from these two commands.”
Is the Messiah David’s Son or David’s Lord?
41 So while the Pharisees were together, Jesus asked them a question. 42 He said, “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
The Pharisees answered, “The Messiah is the Son of David.”
43 Jesus said to them, “Then why did David call him ‘Lord’? David was speaking by the power of the Spirit. He said,
Show everyone the text that says they already rose from the Dead?
Matthew 27:51-53
Easy-to-Read Version
51 When Jesus died, the curtain in the Temple was torn into two pieces. The tear started at the top and tore all the way to the bottom. Also, the earth shook and rocks were broken. 52 The graves opened, and many of God’s people who had died were raised from death. 53 They came out of the graves. And after Jesus was raised from death, they went into the holy city, and many people saw them.
The O.T. saints did not physically raise from the dead until a few chapters after what he said about them. Thus, he knew they were alive in Sheol.
Isaiah 14:1-11
Easy-to-Read Version
Israel Will Return Home
14 The Lord will again show his love to Jacob. He will again choose the people of Israel. He will give them their land. Then the non-Israelites[a] will join the Israelites, and both will become one family—Jacob’s family. 2 Those nations will bring the Israelites back to their land. The men and women from the other nations will become slaves to Israel. In the past, those people forced the Israelites to become their slaves. But in the future the Israelites will defeat those nations, and Israel will then rule over them in the Lord’s land. 3 In the past, you were slaves. People forced you to work hard. But the Lord will take away the hard work you were forced to do.
A Song About the King of Babylon
4 At that time you will begin to sing this song about the king of Babylon:
The king was cruel when he ruled us,
but now his rule is finished.
5 The Lord breaks the scepter of evil rulers;
he takes away their power.
6 In anger, the king of Babylon beat the people.
He never stopped beating them.
He was an evil ruler who ruled in anger.
He never stopped hurting people.
7 But now, the whole country rests and is quiet.
Now the people begin to celebrate.
8 You were an evil king,
and now you are finished.
Even the pine trees are happy.
The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice.
They say, “The king chopped us down,
but now the king has fallen,
and he will never stand again.”
9 The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”
11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.
Maggots will be the bed you lie on,
and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.
Me: the text cleary says the dead in the grave are alive like us. They are awake and asleep like we on earth are. They do not know what is going on on the surface of the earth. Ecc 9
Isaiah 26
19 But the Lord says,
“Your people have died,
but they will live again.
The bodies of my people
will rise from death.
Dead people in the ground,
stand and be happy!
The dew covering you is like
the dew sparkling in the light of a new day.
It shows that a new time is coming,
when the earth will give birth to the dead who are in it.”
Me: Thanks for bringing this text to my attention~! It shows clearly that those in the grave are alive like we are.
Some Sadducees Try to Trick Jesus
23 That same day some Sadducees came to Jesus. (Sadducees believe that no one will rise from death.) The Sadducees asked Jesus a question. 24 They said, “Teacher, Moses told us that if a married man dies and had no children, his brother must marry the woman. Then they will have children for the dead brother.[a] 25 There were seven brothers among us. The first brother married but died. He had no children. So his brother married the woman. 26 Then the second brother also died. The same thing happened to the third brother and all the other brothers. 27 The woman was the last to die. 28 But all seven men had married her. So when people rise from death, whose wife will she be?”
29 Jesus answered, “You are so wrong! You don’t know what the Scriptures say. And you don’t know anything about God’s power. 30 At the time when people rise from death, there will be no marriage. People will not be married to each other. Everyone will be like the angels in heaven. 31 Surely you have read what God said to you about people rising from death. 32 God said, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ So they were not still dead, because he is the God only of living people.”
33 When the people heard this, they were amazed at Jesus’ teaching.
Which Command Is the Most Important?
34 The Pharisees learned that Jesus had made the Sadducees look so foolish that they stopped trying to argue with him. So the Pharisees had a meeting. 35 Then one of them, an expert in the Law of Moses, asked Jesus a question to test him. 36 He said, “Teacher, which command in the law is the most important?”
37 Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and most important command. 39 And the second command is like the first: ‘Love your neighbor[d] the same as you love yourself.’[e] 40 All of the law and the writings of the prophets take their meaning from these two commands.”
Is the Messiah David’s Son or David’s Lord?
41 So while the Pharisees were together, Jesus asked them a question. 42 He said, “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
The Pharisees answered, “The Messiah is the Son of David.”
43 Jesus said to them, “Then why did David call him ‘Lord’? David was speaking by the power of the Spirit. He said,
Show everyone the text that says they already rose from the Dead?
Matthew 27:51-53
Easy-to-Read Version
51 When Jesus died, the curtain in the Temple was torn into two pieces. The tear started at the top and tore all the way to the bottom. Also, the earth shook and rocks were broken. 52 The graves opened, and many of God’s people who had died were raised from death. 53 They came out of the graves. And after Jesus was raised from death, they went into the holy city, and many people saw them.
The O.T. saints did not physically raise from the dead until a few chapters after what he said about them. Thus, he knew they were alive in Sheol.
Isaiah 14:1-11
Easy-to-Read Version
Israel Will Return Home
14 The Lord will again show his love to Jacob. He will again choose the people of Israel. He will give them their land. Then the non-Israelites[a] will join the Israelites, and both will become one family—Jacob’s family. 2 Those nations will bring the Israelites back to their land. The men and women from the other nations will become slaves to Israel. In the past, those people forced the Israelites to become their slaves. But in the future the Israelites will defeat those nations, and Israel will then rule over them in the Lord’s land. 3 In the past, you were slaves. People forced you to work hard. But the Lord will take away the hard work you were forced to do.
A Song About the King of Babylon
4 At that time you will begin to sing this song about the king of Babylon:
The king was cruel when he ruled us,
but now his rule is finished.
5 The Lord breaks the scepter of evil rulers;
he takes away their power.
6 In anger, the king of Babylon beat the people.
He never stopped beating them.
He was an evil ruler who ruled in anger.
He never stopped hurting people.
7 But now, the whole country rests and is quiet.
Now the people begin to celebrate.
8 You were an evil king,
and now you are finished.
Even the pine trees are happy.
The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice.
They say, “The king chopped us down,
but now the king has fallen,
and he will never stand again.”
9 The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”
11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.
Maggots will be the bed you lie on,
and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.
Me: the text cleary says the dead in the grave are alive like us. They are awake and asleep like we on earth are. They do not know what is going on on the surface of the earth. Ecc 9
Isaiah 26
19 But the Lord says,
“Your people have died,
but they will live again.
The bodies of my people
will rise from death.
Dead people in the ground,
stand and be happy!
The dew covering you is like
the dew sparkling in the light of a new day.
It shows that a new time is coming,
when the earth will give birth to the dead who are in it.”
Me: Thanks for bringing this text to my attention~! It shows clearly that those in the grave are alive like we are.
A Basic view: revelation is progressive
O.T.
At start, all dead were almost unconscious
Progressed by time of the Prophets, all dead were councious
Between Testaments 400 years understanding grew
N.T.
Developing view understood by Pharasees
Outdated by the Sadducees.
Jesus taught that both saved and unsaved in spiritual grave are alive Luke 16
At Jesus' Resurrection O.T. Saints were Resurrected and went to heaven Eph 4
Now, Believers go straight to a spiritual Heaven at death.
The dead may or may not be aware in the spritual grave.
Based of the texts I quoted I think they are awake in the grave.
What year did Christians start believing like the Sadducees?
O.T.
At start, all dead were almost unconscious
Progressed by time of the Prophets, all dead were councious
Between Testaments 400 years understanding grew
N.T.
Developing view understood by Pharasees
Outdated by the Sadducees.
Jesus taught that both saved and unsaved in spiritual grave are alive Luke 16
At Jesus' Resurrection O.T. Saints were Resurrected and went to heaven Eph 4
Now, Believers go straight to a spiritual Heaven at death.
The dead may or may not be aware in the spritual grave.
Based of the texts I quoted I think they are awake in the grave.
What year did Christians start believing like the Sadducees?
Below is only opinions: from a source not known for accurately.
Modern scholars believe the concept of an immortal soul going to bliss or torment after death entered mainstream Judaism after the Babylonian exile[64] and existed throughout the Second Temple period, though both 'soul sleep' and 'soul death', were also held.[65][66][67]
Soul sleep is present in certain Second Temple period pseudepigraphal works,[68][69][70]4 Ezra, 7:61[71][72][73] later rabbinical works,[74][75] and among medieval era rabbis such as Abraham Ibn Ezra (1092–1167),[76] Maimonides (1135–1204),[77] and Joseph Albo (1380–1444).[78]
Some authorities within Conservative Judaism, notably Neil Gillman, also support the notion that the souls of the dead are unconscious until the resurrection.[79]
Traditional rabbinic Judaism, however, has always been of the opinion that belief in immortality of at least most souls, and punishment and reward after death, was a consistent belief back through the giving of the Torah at Mt. Sinai. Traditional Judaism reads the Torah accordingly. As an example, the punishment of kareth (excision) is understood to mean that soul is cut off from God in the afterlife.[80][81]
Historic proponents of the mortality of the soul[edit]
The mortality of the soul has not been universally held throughout the history of both Judaism and Christianity.[60][61][62][63]Judaism[edit]
See also: Heaven in JudaismModern scholars believe the concept of an immortal soul going to bliss or torment after death entered mainstream Judaism after the Babylonian exile[64] and existed throughout the Second Temple period, though both 'soul sleep' and 'soul death', were also held.[65][66][67]
Soul sleep is present in certain Second Temple period pseudepigraphal works,[68][69][70]4 Ezra, 7:61[71][72][73] later rabbinical works,[74][75] and among medieval era rabbis such as Abraham Ibn Ezra (1092–1167),[76] Maimonides (1135–1204),[77] and Joseph Albo (1380–1444).[78]
Some authorities within Conservative Judaism, notably Neil Gillman, also support the notion that the souls of the dead are unconscious until the resurrection.[79]
Traditional rabbinic Judaism, however, has always been of the opinion that belief in immortality of at least most souls, and punishment and reward after death, was a consistent belief back through the giving of the Torah at Mt. Sinai. Traditional Judaism reads the Torah accordingly. As an example, the punishment of kareth (excision) is understood to mean that soul is cut off from God in the afterlife.[80][81]
Christian views[edit]
Second century[edit]
In the second half of the second century, Tatian wrote: "The soul is not in itself immortal... If, indeed, it knows not the truth, it dies, and is dissolved with the body, but rises again at last at the end of the world with the body, receiving death by punishment in immortality. But, again, if it acquires the knowledge of God, it dies not, although for a time it be dissolved."[82] Tatian's contemporary Athenagoras of Athens taught that souls sleep dreamlessly between death and resurrection: "[T]hose who are dead and those who sleep are subject to similar states, as regards at least the stillness and the absence of all sense of the present or the past, or rather of existence itself and their own life."[83]In Octavius, an account of a debate between a Pagan and a Christian by Marcus Minucius Felix, the Christian in the debate takes mortalism to be a matter of common agreement:
Third to seventh centuries[edit]
Mortalism in the early church in this period is testified by Eusebius of Caesarea:This synod in Arabia would have been during the reign of Emperor Philip the Arab (244–249).[86] Redepenning (1841)[87] was of the opinion that Eusebius' terminology here, "the human soul dies" was probably that of their critics rather than the Arabian Christians' own expression and they were more likely simply "psychopannychists", believers in “soul sleep”.[88]
Some Syriac writers such as Aphrahat, Ephrem and Narsai believed in the dormition, or "sleep", of the soul, in which "...souls of the dead...are largely inert, having lapsed into a state of sleep, in which they can only dream of their future reward or punishments."[89] John of Damascus denounced the ideas of some Arab Christians as thnetopsychism ("soul death"). Eustratios of Constantinople (after 582) denounced this and what he called hypnopsychism ("soul sleep").[90] The issue was connected to that of the intercession of saints. The writings of Christian ascetic Isaac of Nineveh (d. 700), reflect several perspectives which include soul sleep.[91]
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