Soul Sleep yes or no?

[St. SteVen]

( I’ve never understood how some people say that they are in hell! No judgement day yet. )

Some people? Like Jesus?
What did he say about the Rich Man in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus?

Luke 16:22-25 NIV
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side.
The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water
and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,
while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

 

[St. SteVen]

In general, insults and using derogatory terms for sincerely held beliefs (which seems to be almost universally practiced—after a time, neutral terms that are used unkindly take on a negative connotation) never saved anyone from being deceived. Derision and ad hominem will not help to clear up this confusion.

I agree "in general".
Do we not allow for a variety of opinions when we attempt to "clear up this confusion"?
That seems to point to a single answer solution.

 

[BarneyFife]

I agree "in general".
Do we not allow for a variety of opinions when we attempt to "clear up this confusion"?
That seems to point to a single answer solution.

Whatever positions we might hold, do we think God is confused about this? Do we believe He wants us to be divided and confused?

While we are being patient and kind with each other as fruit of the Spirit provide, should there be no goal of decisive unity as an object to be desired? These are not personal challenges, but merely questions intended to provoke thoughtful reflection.

 

[BarneyFife]

We humans do not well enough understand the cognitive implications of and the paradoxical dilemma imposed by the simple declarations:

Isa 55:8-9
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Psa 50:21
These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.

 

[St. SteVen]

Whatever positions we might hold, do we think God is confused about this?

I think we are probably WRONG about EVERYTHING. And beyond understanding anything.
Even if God explained it to us, we would still not understand.

So... thinking we are going to understand as he understands is probably unreasonable.
There are mysteries too deep for us to even fathom.

Arguing amongst ourselves does little good.

Do we believe He wants us to be divided and confused?

I have little hope that this will ever change.
Debate probably will not get us there. Will we ever agree? (nope)

Love would work. If I love you no matter what you believe, there is no division.
If I love you even when we share differing POVs, there is no confusion.

While we are being patient and kind with each other as fruit of the Spirit provide, should there be no goal of decisive unity as an object to be desired?

I repeat...
Love would work. If I love you no matter what you believe, there is no division.
If I love you even when we share differing POVs, there is no confusion.

These are not personal challenges, but merely questions intended to provoke thoughtful reflection.

I'm fine with personal challenges. AND thought provoking reflection. Thanks.

 

[St. SteVen]

Do we believe He wants us to be divided and confused?

I notice your signature line (toggle) says:
"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy".

That could be a very divisive item right there.
Would consider those in disagreement with you to be "confused" about what God wants?

 

[ElieG12]

I've seen a lot of this on the forum lately.
Forum posters interrogating other posters.

The idea that a written reply is not an answer to their loaded question.

A sure sign of an agenda. Someone that is not interesting in understanding others.
Like a police interview gone wrong, they only wish to get the confession they want.

The dead will be resurrected. (duh) Happy now?

I suppose we need to explore the definition of the word "dead".
That may be where the disconnect is here.

I suppose you have a biblical basis for your position.
But that doesn't mean I need to disregard my own biblical position in favor of yours.
And especially not on the basis that you think I am ignorant.

The Christian brotherhood that God accepts is not how we want it to be, but how God wants it to be (John 4:23,24). Pedophiles would like there to be a brotherhood/sorority that would not claim them for their acts, and also drunkards, and liars... Just as the Devil would like religious lies to abound in the midst of God's people... What does God want?

The Scriptures confirm that there is no place for religious lies among God's people. When there were discussions about whether Gentiles who became Christians should be circumcised, what was done? (Acts 15) ... And if there is someone who says that the resurrection has already happened, what should be done? And if there is someone who says that Adam and Eve did not exist in real life, nor Abraham, nor Moses, etc., what should be done? And if there is someone who says that the Flood did not happen, what should be done?

Furthermore, if beliefs are not important, then what kind of forum are we in? This is not a church nor is it a community club. If you believe in something, make sure that it is what the Bible teaches and learn how to be able to demonstrate it to others like we must do (Mat. 28:19,20) and so they see that you are not making up your own ideas that you want to believe, but that you believe in the truths that God teaches us.

This topic here is about the state of the dead and the adjacent issue of the resurrection. Why don't we focus?

 

[Helen]

Some people? Like Jesus?
What did he say about the Rich Man in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus?

Luke 16:22-25 NIV
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side.
The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water
and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,
while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

Hello there

I’m not here to argue .

But what you say about Jesus is true - for ‘THAT’ time!

He had not yet died , paying the price required by His Father. His blood had not yet been shed .
the New Covenant had not yet been cut , the victory had not yet been won!
He had not yet descended into hell…and preached to them …
He had not yet led captivity captive …
His hour had not yet come.

Today is another story ….

 

[BarneyFife]

I think we are probably WRONG about EVERYTHING. And beyond understanding anything.
Even if God explained it to us, we would still not understand.

So... thinking we are going to understand as he understands is probably unreasonable.
There are mysteries too deep for us to even fathom.

Arguing amongst ourselves does little good.

I have little hope that this will ever change.
Debate probably will not get us there. Will we ever agree? (nope)

Love would work. If I love you no matter what you believe, there is no division.
If I love you even when we share differing POVs, there is no confusion.

I repeat...
Love would work. If I love you no matter what you believe, there is no division.
If I love you even when we share differing POVs, there is no confusion.

I'm fine with personal challenges. AND thought provoking reflection. Thanks.

The thing is, I just can't get past this:

Eph 4:11-15
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Is it wrong to emphasize the words in bold, italic, and underscore as I have above done?

No matter how hopeless the possibility of doctrinal unity looks, I have to believe that God means what He says when He says things like:

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Having said this, I don't believe I have a monopoly on truth. Elijah thought this, but he was wrong about some things, and there were 7000 of those whom he did not know, who had not bowed the knee to Baal, nor had their mouths kissed him.

And, as you say, we only have this treasure in earthen vessels. Human language is insufficient to express the glory of God.

The more clearly I see how much Christ loves this world and yea, verily, each one of us enough to number the hairs of our head and consent to the cruel death He suffered for us, the more natural it is to want to believe and live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

It is a steady and greatly rewarding, if difficult, process of growth to all who will submit to it. We should really pray for each other in this world that puts up so many obstacles to this process. I know I need the prayers worse than most.

 

[St. SteVen]

Is it wrong to emphasize the words in bold, italic, and underscore as I have above done?

No, not wrong... But...

I remember a pastor saying once, "The kingdom of God is found everywhere you DIDN'T underline in your Bible.

I think the same guy said, "Love is when you are planning to give someone your old set of dishes when you buy new ones,
but then you decide to give them the new ones instead.

We don't, perhaps even can't, make sense of this walk of faith. Lean not on _____________________. (fill in the blank) Thanks.

 

[St. SteVen]

No matter how hopeless the possibility of doctrinal unity looks, I have to believe that God means what He says when He says things like:

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Perhaps this has nothing to do with doctrinal unity.
Is there another kind of unity? Lets look.

It says "the unity of the faith"... " and of the knowledge of the Son of God"... vs 13 (pasted below)

Maybe the unity of the faith is when we accept each other as we are. WWJD?

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[St. SteVen]

Having said this, I don't believe I have a monopoly on truth.

That's a gem right there.
Some would say, "Your argument is with God, not me!" Or...
"The Bible disagrees with you!"
Glad to see that you are above that. Thanks.

 

[St. SteVen]

to believe and live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

Is that a lot to lay on an English translation of the Bible? Every word that proceeds from the mouth of God?
How many humans did it pass through on the way here?

 

[St. SteVen]

It is a steady and greatly rewarding, if difficult, process of growth to all who will submit to it.

Bible knowledge is good. But some make an idol out of it.
I have to ask them, "What would become of your faith if you put your whole library out on the curb on trash day?"
Or if you ended up in prison with no written Bible resources whatsoever.

 

[St. SteVen]

Apologies to the OP @friend of
I'm getting WAY off topic.

 

[friend of]

Apologies to the OP @friend of
I'm getting WAY off topic.

It happens my friend. I hope your divergence was edifying in some way.

 

[ElieG12]

Peter says:

2 Pet. 1:5 (...) by YOUR contributing in response all earnest effort, supply to YOUR faith virtue, to [YOUR] virtue knowledge, 6 to [YOUR] knowledge self-control, to [YOUR] self-control endurance, to [YOUR] endurance godly devotion, 7 to [YOUR] godly devotion brotherly affection, to [YOUR] brotherly affection love. 8 For if these things exist in YOU and overflow, they will prevent YOU from being either inactive or unfruitful regarding the accurate knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For if these things are not present in anyone, he is blind, shutting his eyes [to the light], and has become forgetful of his cleansing from his sins of long ago.

Knowledge of the truth is also important. There are many people in the world who do not believe in Jesus and worship many other diferent gods, and still love each other in their paricular group, or love others out of their group, ... They need knowledge of the truth.

There are too many religious lies out there about Jesus, the condition of the dead, the future of the planet, who goes to heaven, who is God, etc ... How could believers help each other to gain more knowledge of the truth, go deeper into what they believe, check what they think in case they learned out of error?

Speaking honestly about biblical matters. Without grudges, without resentment, without attacks, without drama, without sermonizing, which are just words that are learned by heart like litanies but that under a magnifying glass make no sense, humble and without fear... Use the Bible to learn, because for that God gave it to us:

2 Tim. 3:16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

 

[BarneyFife]

I notice your signature line (toggle) says:
"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy".

That could be a very divisive item right there.
Would consider those in disagreement with you to be "confused" about what God wants?

I'm wondering why my considering someone to be confused would matter to anyone. Isn't God our final judge?

If I believe and teach that the ten commandments are God's self-expressed moral code for humanity is that, in and of itself, an indictment upon anyone else or their beliefs?

I'm an old man and sometimes it's very hard for me to understand how simple expression causes so much tension. When I was young, this state of things only existed on the very fringes of society, usually with folks who were obsessed with being affirmed by others.

I understand that the relational proximity of individuals has become wildly over-saturated with the proliferation of the Internet (I actually have a theory that this might have been foretold to some extent in Daniel 12 and Revelation 12). I saw this beginning to happen about 20 years ago, and it is growing into pretty much exactly what I feared.

If you say anything that cuts across the views of others, it is far too often seen as personal opposition and/or condemnation, and frequently belies an eventually evident, underlying insecurity or, in the worst cases, a bonafide identity crisis. It is very saddening to me.

I'm probably being too transparent. I really just don't think making my assessment of things public should be so challenging to others.

 

[BarneyFife]

We don't, perhaps even can't, make sense of this walk of faith.

Is this a zero-sum equation? Or are there degrees of sense we can make of it? We've established that we can't understand things the way God does. It goes practically without saying. It seems, then, that the challenge for us is to seek to comprehend as much as is devolved upon us by God as individuals—something that can only be determined between a soul and their God.

Perhaps this has nothing to do with doctrinal unity.
Is there another kind of unity? Lets look.

Maybe the unity of the faith is when we accept each other as we are. WWJD?

Is that a lot to lay on an English translation of the Bible? Every word that proceeds from the mouth of God?
How many humans did it pass through on the way here?

Bible knowledge is good. But some make an idol out of it.

There's a lot I can agree with on this last one.

To be honest, to address all of these items without sounding argumentative is a task for which I could hardly give the appropriate amount of time and effort right now.

It ain't easy bein' unorthodox.

So I'll just say that while we may see some things differently, I certainly wouldn't want to exert any undue pressure on someone to violate their own conscience regarding their duty to God and man.

A cop-out, perhaps.

 

[BarneyFife]

I notice your signature line (toggle) says:
"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy".

That could be a very divisive item right there.
Would consider those in disagreement with you to be "confused" about what God wants?

After re-reading this, it suddenly occurs to me that we're using two different definitions of the word "confused" here. When I originally said "confused" I meant that more than one in a group who do not agree on something are all confused in the neutral, non-critical, or perhaps even pluralist sense of the word.

We should probably crack open a new thread for any further discussion along these lines, or find another one that's suitable. I must admit, it is a stimulating subject.