The Covering Dynamic

[Spiritual Israelite]

Zechariah 14:16-21 KJV
16) And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17) And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18) And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19) This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20) In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21) Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

The nations will come to Jerusalem, in Israel, a kingdom of priests, to worship God.

Do you believe in the reinstatement of animal sacrifices and offerings in the future? Because that is what believing that this will be fulfilled literally in the future would imply. Part of keeping the feast of tabernacles involves animal sacrifices and offerings.

 

[marks]

Do you believe in the reinstatement of animal sacrifices and offerings in the future? Because that is what believing that this will be fulfilled literally in the future would imply. Part of keeping the feast of tabernacles involves animal sacrifices and offerings.

There's your answer! You've said yourself that's what this passage says. Tell me, what is you objection to this? And if that's not what it means, what does it mean?

And to forestall one possible objection, no, I don't believe animal sacrifices as a cover for sin will be performed. But there are many more offerings than that. Fellowship offerings, thankgiving offerings, and so forth.

Ezekiel 36:25-28 KJV
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

When the Jews are returned to Israel, with Jesus having fulfilled their covenant with God, they will receive the blessings of the covenant, the head of nations, great harvests, all of it. And God will put His Spirit in them and they will keep all His Law.

That's if you take these passages at face value. Which I do.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 12:46-50 KJV
46) While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47) Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48) But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49) And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50) For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matthew 25:40 KJV
40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Context and attention to detail give us some information.

Are they my mother and brother and sister? No, here is who I count my mother and brother and sister, those who do the will of My Father.

As much as you've done it to the least of these My brothers . . . wait, doesn't He care about His mother and sister? Or is this a different context?

Who would it be that is present that He is speaking of? His mother and brothers were outside the house He was in. And the Jews had been regathered as promised, from among whom Jesus was born. These are our two contexts.

I don't find this to be a strong argument at all. In Matthew 12 He implies that those who do the will of the Father are His brothers. That would include both Jew and Gentile believers since we all do the will of the Father which is to believe in His Son. And He said they are His sisters and His mother as well. But, He said they are His brothers. You can't just dismiss that because He mentioned His sisters and mother as well. Just because His mother and sister are not specifically mentioned in Matthew 25:40 doesn't change the fact of who He said His brothers are.

The point He was making when saying those who do the will of His father are His brothers, sisters and mother is that those are the ones who He considers to be part of His spiritual family. Those are the only type of brothers (or sisters or mother) that Jesus counted as being in His family. He would not refer to any other types of people as His brothers except for those who do the will of the Father by believing in Him.

Where does scripture teach that His brothers are the Jews?

 

[David in NJ]

Elijah's ministry according to both Jesus and Malachi will be to prepare the people for the Lord. The two witnesses are killed and ascend to heaven, meanwhile Elijah is helping the bride to become ready for her bridegroom.

Much love!

John 3:27-29
"John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled."

We received the TRUTH that God established in Genesis the Gospel in Prophetic Allegorical Form in the lives of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob.
This TRUTH is verified in the Gospel of John, Acts, Romans, Galatians and Ephesians

We also received that when the time came for Isaac to receive a Bride, Abraham sent out his servant to find her.
Abraham(Father of Nations) Servant is symbolic of the Holy Spirit.
When the Servant finds Rebekah and she accepts she is given Wedding Gifts which is the Prophetic of Acts ch1 & ch2, 1 Cor.

The Bride of Christ walked with Christ when He was on the earth. His Bride is the 'Church' the Elect of God.

This is verified in the Gospel, Acts and the writings of the Apostles.

In Matthew ch24 the Bride of Christ asked the Lord Jesus when His Second Coming will be.
Jesus answered them and all who would believe on Him up to His Second Coming.
This is crystal clear in His declarations which followed and is confirmed in Acts and the Apostles.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There's your answer! You've said yourself that's what this passage says.

No, I did not say that's what the passage says. I said what the passage would be saying IF it was meant to be interpreted literally about something that would happen in the future.

Tell me, what is you objection to this?

It contradicts a lot of scripture and is a huge insult to Christ's "once for all" sacrifice. It contradicts scripture like this:

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Our great God and Savior Jesus Christ came to this earth and sacrificed Himself "once for all". He "offered one sacrifice for sins for ever". He put an end to the need for the old covenant sacrifices "which can never take away sins". When Jesus came He said "Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure". With all of this in mind, why would God ever want to reinstate animal sacrifices and offerings? That makes no sense and would make a mockery of Christ's "once for all" sacrifice that He made "for sins for ever".

And if that's not what it means, what does it mean?

I'm not sure, honestly, but I just know it can't be literal and have anything to do with animal sacrifices and offerings since that would contradict other scripture. The thing I have said many times is that we should establish our doctrines on straightforward scripture and not on difficult and highly debatable scripture like Zechariah 14.

And to forestall one possible objection, no, I don't believe animal sacrifices as a cover for sin will be performed.

So, what do you believe would be the purpose of future animal sacrifices then and where is the purpose for them described in scripture?

But there are many more offerings than that. Fellowship offerings, thankgiving offerings, and so forth.

Let me remind you again that it's talking about the feast of tabernacles. Observing that involved performing animal sacrifices as sin offerings (see Numbers 29:12-34).

Ezekiel 36:25-28 KJV
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

When the Jews are returned to Israel, with Jesus having fulfilled their covenant with God, they will receive the blessings of the covenant, the head of nations, great harvests, all of it. And God will put His Spirit in them and they will keep all His Law.

That is a reference to what started happening long ago on the day of Pentecost. Did God not start putting His Spirit in His people back then? Of course He did. Why would you not relate this to that? I don't understand how you think at all.

That's if you take these passages at face value. Which I do.

This is no different than when you talk about the "exact words" of scripture and such. I don't put any stock in comments like this. Tell me, does scripture itself tell us we should always take it at face value? What did Paul have to say about that in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16?

 

[marks]

Where does scripture teach that His brothers are the Jews?

Was Jesus Jewish?

Acts 2:30 KJV
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Jesus is counted the descendant of David "according to the flesh", that is, He is accounted of David's line.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Was Jesus Jewish?

Acts 2:30 KJV
Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Jesus is counted the descendant of David "according to the flesh", that is, He is accounted of David's line.

This doesn't answer my question, so I'll ask it again. Where does scripture teach that His brothers are the Jews?

We have scripture where Jesus said who His brothers are and He said they are those who do the will of the Father. Do you see any scripture where He said that His brothers are the Jews? Shouldn't we allow Him to define who His brothers are? If His brothers were the Jews then that would mean even wicked people like the Pharisees and scribes were His brothers. Is that really what you want to go with?

It's clear to me that Jesus was talking about His spiritual brothers in Matthew 25:40 just like in Matthew 12:46-50. Why would Jesus care about how the Jews were treated in general when He obviously had strong disdain for many of the Jews of His day including the Pharisees and the scribes (see Matthew 23). Do you think He was opposed to what happened to the unbelieving Jews in 70 AD and was mad at the Romans for killing His (supposed) brothers in Jerusalem?

 

[marks]

No, I did not say that's what the passage says. I said what the passage would be saying IF it was meant to be interpreted literally about something that would happen in the future.

This is what it says. Why would we not accept it's saying?

Where are we told it's a parable, or allegory, or metaphor, or other figures of speech? And if that's what it is, allegory, or something, where are we told what that means?

For instance, "and that rock was Christ", the metaphor is here both identified and defined, and therefore carries Scriptural authority.

Unless the Bible identifies something as a metaphor or type, AND it defines the meaning, in context, then such interpretation lacks Scriptural authority. Unless the Bible itself tells us to take something in some other manner, and tells us what that would be, I've of the mind we should accept what it says at face value, in the ways language is normally used and understood, particularly in it's historical context.

It contradicts a lot of scripture and is a huge insult to Christ's "once for all" sacrifice. It contradicts scripture like this:

Again . . . not the offering for sin. We make sacrifices to God now, you remember. Our bodies. Our praises. For instance.

I'm not sure, honestly, but I just know it can't be literal and have anything to do with animal sacrifices and offerings since that would contradict other scripture. The thing I have said many times is that we should establish our doctrines on straightforward scripture and not on difficult and highly debatable scripture like Zechariah 14.

What makes it difficult? I find it to be plain reading that agrees with other Scripture. And debateable, everything is debated, on and on. Zechariah is very straightforward in my understanding.

So, what do you believe would be the purpose of future animal sacrifices then?

Worship.

Let me remind you again that it's talking about the feast of tabernacles. Observing that involved performing animal sacrifices as sin offerings (see Numbers 29:12-34).

Numbers 29:12-34 KJV
12) And on the fifteenth day of the seventh month ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work, and ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days:
13) And ye shall offer a burnt offering, a sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; thirteen young bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year; they shall be without blemish:
14) And their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil, three tenth deals unto every bullock of the thirteen bullocks, two tenth deals to each ram of the two rams,
15) And a several tenth deal to each lamb of the fourteen lambs:
16) And one kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.
17) And on the second day ye shall offer twelve young bullocks, two rams, fourteen lambs of the first year without spot:
18) And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
19) And one kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and the meat offering thereof, and their drink offerings.
20) And on the third day eleven bullocks, two rams, fourteen lambs of the first year without blemish;
21) And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
22) And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and his meat offering, and his drink offering.
23) And on the fourth day ten bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year without blemish:
24) Their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
25) And one kid of the goats for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.
26) And on the fifth day nine bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year without spot:
27) And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
28) And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, and his meat offering, and his drink offering.
29) And on the sixth day eight bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year without blemish:
30) And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
31) And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.
32) And on the seventh day seven bullocks, two rams, and fourteen lambs of the first year without blemish:
33) And their meat offering and their drink offerings for the bullocks, for the rams, and for the lambs, shall be according to their number, after the manner:
34) And one goat for a sin offering; beside the continual burnt offering, his meat offering, and his drink offering.

Every day they offered a sin offering, morning and evening. The sin offering is fulfilled in Christ.

Zechariah 14:16-21 KJV
16) And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17) And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18) And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19) This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20) In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21) Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

You say that you don't know what this means, and I like honesty, humilty, that we can admit such things. I'd simply point out that the reason you don't know what it means is because you reject the plain saying because you see that to be in disagreement with other things you think. So it comes down to having a personal opinion that it doesn't mean the plain thing it says.

For myself, Unless I know Scripture that tells me what it means, and that it's something other than it's plain saying, my way is to change what I think, rather than what the meaning of the plain saying is.

Much love!

 

[marks]

John 3:27-29
"John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled."

We received the TRUTH that God established in Genesis the Gospel in Prophetic Allegorical Form in the lives of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob.
This TRUTH is verified in the Gospel of John, Acts, Romans, Galatians and Ephesians

We also received that when the time came for Isaac to receive a Bride, Abraham sent out his servant to find her.
Abraham(Father of Nations) Servant is symbolic of the Holy Spirit.
When the Servant finds Rebekah and she accepts she is given Wedding Gifts which is the Prophetic of Acts ch1 & ch2, 1 Cor.

The Bride of Christ walked with Christ when He was on the earth. His Bride is the 'Church' the Elect of God.

This is verified in the Gospel, Acts and the writings of the Apostles.

In Matthew ch24 the Bride of Christ asked the Lord Jesus when His Second Coming will be.
Jesus answered them and all who would believe on Him up to His Second Coming.
This is crystal clear in His declarations which followed and is confirmed in Acts and the Apostles.

Where is the Scripture that tells us the church is the bride of Christ? I know it is compared to a bride. I know where the church is actually called the body of Christ, even in the context of a passage including marraige. I know where the Bible says Israel was married to God, then divorced, to be remarried to God.

But I don't know any Scripture that tells us the church is the bride of Christ.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

John 3:27-29
"John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled."

We received the TRUTH that God established in Genesis the Gospel in Prophetic Allegorical Form in the lives of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob.
This TRUTH is verified in the Gospel of John, Acts, Romans, Galatians and Ephesians

We also received that when the time came for Isaac to receive a Bride, Abraham sent out his servant to find her.
Abraham(Father of Nations) Servant is symbolic of the Holy Spirit.
When the Servant finds Rebekah and she accepts she is given Wedding Gifts which is the Prophetic of Acts ch1 & ch2, 1 Cor.

The Bride of Christ walked with Christ when He was on the earth. His Bride is the 'Church' the Elect of God.

This is verified in the Gospel, Acts and the writings of the Apostles.

In Matthew ch24 the Bride of Christ asked the Lord Jesus when His Second Coming will be.
Jesus answered them and all who would believe on Him up to His Second Coming.
This is crystal clear in His declarations which followed and is confirmed in Acts and the Apostles.

A lot of folks forget something .
The apostels themselves made mention of this to CHRIST and HE gave them an answer .
But dont the prophets say that ELIJAH must first come
I say unto you HE ALREADY has and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed .
He spoke of john .
March on in the LORD my friend . The final hour is upon the world , great tribulations are arising and shall come
against the true lambs . Just as persecutions and tribulations have come upon the church
since her beginning . The lambs are not exempt , FROM PERSECUTION and TRIBULATION . as YOU WELL KNOW .
TIMES will get very rough in this world . BUT let us remember JESUS told us
in THIS WORLD YE SHALL TRIBULATION . Never once did JESUS say
When times begin to get rough and right before tribulation begins , NO WORRIES YOU WONT HAVE TO ENDURE IT .
HE never SAID THAT . TRUTH IS JESUS PREPARED HIS OWN .
warning them that men would kill them , persecute them
but that he who endures to the END the same shall be saved . My advice stands
FOLKS GET PREPARED IN CHRIST to suffer ALL FOR HIS NAME SAKE .
AND DO be watching and do be ready , FOR NO man knoweth the hour the LORD does come .
Great tribulations and persecutions have been building against the lambs
AND THEY WONT BE GETTING ANY BETTER . ITS ONLY GONNA GET WORSE . AND I MEAN MUCH WORSE
with whatever time we got left in this world . Tribulation is about to hit a high time level .

 

[Timtofly]

You are trying to separate what the blood of Christ brought together as "one body" and "fellowheirs". You should not be doing that.

Well the unbelievers were never the church, so you are the one making a distinction, not me. I never said that unbelievers would be given the kingdom as caretakers. I just said Gentiles instead of Israel would now be the caretakers. That is in keeping with Paul and that the job was taken away and given to others.

 

[Timtofly]

What does this even mean? Obviously, I have my own beliefs and there are many others who have the same beliefs as I do. But, I view other beliefs as well. What I was saying is that I don't believe it's worth taking a lot of my time refuting something that only one person believes. What is the point of that?


I didn't say that I did. You're getting upset about something you are only imagining rather than anything that is actually true.


I didn't go there and don't plan to go there. You've gotten yourself all riled up for nothing. You have once again misunderstood something that was said to you. You do that all the time. I wish I knew why that is the case.


LOL. What evidence have you seen to suggest that I don't want to discuss scripture? Is it the many times I've discussed scripture in the past that gives you that impression? Of course I want to discuss scripture, but if part of my goal is to refute false doctrine then I'd rather spend more time refuting false doctrine that more than one person believes in. I feel that is a better way to spend my time.

I was not riled up. Just pointing out your interpretation of Scripture is dead wrong, kindly.

 

[David in NJ]

Where is the Scripture that tells us the church is the bride of Christ? I know it is compared to a bride. I know where the church is actually called the body of Christ, even in the context of a passage including marraige. I know where the Bible says Israel was married to God, then divorced, to be remarried to God.

But I don't know any Scripture that tells us the church is the bride of Christ.

Much love!

TRUTH is Straight-Forward

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth."

John 3:27-29
"John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled."

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the Bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[David in NJ]

Where is the Scripture that tells us the church is the bride of Christ? I know it is compared to a bride. I know where the church is actually called the body of Christ, even in the context of a passage including marraige. I know where the Bible says Israel was married to God, then divorced, to be remarried to God.

But I don't know any Scripture that tells us the church is the bride of Christ.

Much love!

TRUTH is Straight-Forward

John 17:17 "Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth."

John 3:27-29
"John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven. You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent before Him.’ He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. Therefore this joy of mine is fulfilled."

Revelation 22:17
And the Spirit and the Bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Timtofly]

You're not going by the exact words there. It's talking about gathering "His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other". No mention of Israel or land there. You infer that rather than going by the exact words. I don't know why you are not willing to acknowledge this.

I think the difference is that only those in Christ were gathered in the air.

The sheep were not part of that gathering. They were gathered to Jerusalem to be judged by Jesus on His Glorious Throne.

That is not an argument from silence. You are the one claiming that if it is not in a particular verse, then change the context to make something fit, that is not supposed to fit.

The sheep do not represent all of those in Christ. The sheep are gathered after the church so is a different harvest from the glorified church.

You are arguing from silence because you want to add your own reasoning to certain passages that is just not there. You think that is comparing Scripture with Scripture. No that is comparing your interpretation from one Scripture and filling in the blanks erroneously.

The gathering of the church is at the Second Coming as Jesus is headed to the Mount of Olives. The sheep are the lost sheep of Israel scattered throughout all the Nations gathered to Jerusalem during the Trumpets. They are also gathered by the angels. All human works were burned up at the Second Coming. The only reliable means of transport are the angels.

So in gathering the sheep and goats Jesus is restoring the remnant of Israel as the OT prophets claimed. The church has not been gathered by angels over the last 1993 years. That was the work of the Holy Spirit. Gathered by angels is not symbolism. It is literally the only way to gather them to Jerusalem. The angels will also be on earth tossing many alive into the LOF.

Nor is Matthew 25 the GWT judgment mentioned in Revelation 20. The difference is between those still physically alive, and the dead from other places besides those alive on the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Right. That's the point I have made and I haven't gotten any response to that particular point yet. John the Baptist accomplished everything that the prophecy said Elijah was supposed to do, so why would anyone think that he (or Elijah himself) would have to come again to fulfill the prophecy? This idea that he did not accomplish what he was sent to do does not sit right with me at all.

This is in context of just seeing Moses and Elijah on the mount of Transfiguration.

"And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?"

Obviously Jesus had been with them prior to them seeing Elijah in person just minutes prior. So they were asking Jesus why did He come first, before this appearing of Elijah. They were not even addressing Scripture, but the teachings of the scribes. Of course the scribes were those who made copies of the OT to keep God's Word from being set aside and pass away like any other book.

So their first question is: "Wait, we just saw Elijah, but was he not supposed to come prior to you?"

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things."

This is the point of contention. Jesus was not quoting Scripture. Jesus was answering a question. Was Jesus literally saying Elijah will not have to come in the future, or was Jesus saying Elijah will still come, but the Scripture was fulfilled in part by John the Baptist, who came in the spirit of Elijah? John the Baptist was a messenger preparing the way, but John the Baptist did not restore all things. This is the part John the Baptist did do:

"That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

Even the disciples did not realize that John the Baptist fulfulled part of the prophesy. It was not until Jesus explained it that a blindness was lifted so they understood it was John the Baptist, because he had been killed, and had prepared the way for Jesus.

Yet Jesus did not say that John the Baptist was literally Elijah nor that the prophecy was completely fulfilled. Jesus never mentions John the Baptist once.

"Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist."

Jesus did not say that John the Baptist was the entire fulfillment. Jesus did say that Elijah will truly come and restore all things. This is still not John the Baptist. It may not even be Elijah. Jesus was the one who would come and restore all things. Was the original prophecy not about Elijah at all but a type referring to Jesus Himself. Even the disciples missed that point until this:

"Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

They would still have to wait for the Holy Spirit to even understand what they witnessed that day. They did see Moses and Elijah. They saw Jesus as the true son of God in the complete image of God.

That means that Jesus will still come and restore all things, and prior to the final judgment.

"Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

The Second Coming is still in context the 6th Seal before the Day of Judgment. There are still humans alive on the earth, and during the Trumpets and Thunders. Partly fulfilled as Messiah, yet coming as King is still future, because Jesus said it was still future.

"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things."

He was speaking about His own Second Coming as King to restore all things. The first act is to gather all of Israel out of all nations and separate them as sheep and goats. Not the church, the church is raptured up, as Jesus is descending to the Mount of Olives.

Paul does not use the title Jesus. Paul says we meet the Lord in the air, and forever will be with the Lord. That is the full embodiment of the Trinity. The church does not follow Jesus to the earth. God and the Holy Spirit are still considered part of Paradise, as the term Lord is used.

That is why you cannot just toss Zechariah 14 out as finished. Jesus will sit on a throne in Jerusalem and restore all things at the Second Coming, before the Trumpets and Thunders. The sheep are part of the restoration of Israel. All things were not restored in the first century. The Messiah part was fulfilled and finished. The Lamb was slain as promised. The physical point of the Atonement Covenant was completed.

 

[Timtofly]

Does anyone here besides me think this means 12,000 men from each of 12 Israeli tribes? Does anyone besides me think that these are "the servants of God" at that time? That the servants of God number 144,000, all from Israel?

That's what I think. I read what it says, and accept it as true.

Yes. Just as there were 12 original disciples at the first coming of Jesus, there will be 144k disciples for the next 1,000 years, the camp of the saints.

Revelation 14:4

"These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

They are glued to Jesus for the entire Day of the Lord. Including the point when He is on earth to restore all things.

Jesus will rule over billions, perhaps tens of billions. 144k will still seem like a small group, compared to the first 12 disciples in the first century.

 

[Timtofly]

It even says that the disciples understood that he spoke of John the Baptist. So, that means that is who Jesus was talking about. So, if you think John the Baptist didn't do what the prophecy said he would do, does that mean you think John the Baptist will come again to finish the job? You can't think it will be Elijah himself because that would contradict Jesus saying that the Elijah to come was John the Baptist.

Look who is asking ridiculous questions.

Also, Jesus never said Elijah to come was John the Baptist. Jesus is the future Elijah to come. The prophecy in Malachi can only be about Jesus. Jesus is the only human who can restore all things. John the Baptist did not restore all things. John the Baptist prepared the way for Jesus to come. To turn their hearts in preparation for the Messiah.

Yes Jesus was talking about John the Baptist, but never said John the Baptist was Elijah. Jesus was not wrong in the point Elias came. We understand that to mean John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah. Not that John the Baptist was Elijah. The spirit of Elijah is still Elijah. You have a spirit as well, no? Does your spirit go by your name?

 

[Timtofly]

Why would the sheep not represent the elect/chosen? They inherit "eternal life" (Matt 25:46) in "the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt 25:34). Is that not what the elect/chosen of God will inherit? I believe it is since I believe all who belong to Christ are His sheep and His elect.

Well the earth has been the place prepared since the beginning. The issue is that God prepared a place for Adam and his family separate from the earth. This kingdom is not even for Abraham. See this difference:

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

There are some who seek that heavenly city, and they came out of a country, never to return to that country.

"And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly."

The sheep are on earth and given the earth as their earthly kingdom. Which has been prepared for them since creation. This earth still has a millennium left, the Day of the Lord. In rushing God to end it all, obviously you don't understand the sheep are given the earth as their inheritance. You also don't allow for any procreation after the Second Coming. How is the earth going to be subdued without procreation?

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

You have a destroyed earth with literally no one in it. You call that subduing the earth as presentable to God? That is not how God described the way the earth was to be subdued at the beginning. A burnt offering?

Jesus will make a new earth and heaven, but after removing all that defiles the earth first. Then after reigning on earth until all things are subdued, Jesus will present creation to God. Not just the earth but every thing in heaven as well. Except heaven was presented to God as the OT firstfruits at the time of the Cross. Every soul entering heaven has been presented to God. Those on earth as the church will be presented at the Second Coming. Yet there is still work on earth before the end can be declared. Especially since you don't think there is procreation in the NHNE. In your view the earth will always be empty with no one living there, as you have them all killed at the Second Coming.

Although you don't think there will even be a city called New Jerusalem. I guess the church will just spread out across your earth as one big sanctuary. Still sounds pretty empty, as all were around the throne in Paradise. Why would the church then break up into kingdoms and nations on the earth? There are no divisions in the church. Well except for the fact everyone on earth has a different opinion on about almost everything. The church in Paradise is not divided, but one in Christ. Why would there be division in the future?

Matthew 25:31-46 is clearly about salvation since it indicates that the sheep/righteous inherit "eternal life" at that point (Matt 25:46). So, what gives here? Why does it, on the surface, give the impression that people are being rewarded with salvation and eternal life based on their works? That is because our works reflect our faith. The sheep are not being rewarded specifically for their works, but rather for the faith that their works reflected.

The sheep are not being rewarded. They are being redeemed from the earth. They were in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Now they are made righteous. The reward comes in reigning on the earth. You are mixing the works of the flesh with the work done in obedience to the spirit. Being made sheep is the result of this judgment.

 

[Timtofly]

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Is not the shoe on the other foot now?

Jesus will say to the church, I have other sheep which are not of this fold, the church. Jesus will be referring to his relatives the returning remnant of the nation of Israel.

As the Son of man, Jesus is from the tribe of Judah, an Israelite.

One can be in Christ and still live on the earth.