A Form of godliness

[face2face]

No Scripture? Of course not! I have plenty of Scripture.


Amen Jesus, the Son of God!

So you understand the textual issues with the verse you posted?

 

[Jack]

So you understand the textual issues with the verse you posted?

I understand you're being evasive.

 

[Earburner]

And you have a text to support this radical idea of yours?

Oh, you are back here again. I was still waiting for you to comment on your thread "Ministering spirits ignored". You never did comment, so I went elsewhere.
Here is my support scripture.

John 17
[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

[Earburner]

So what I can glean from Earburner's view on Angels is that everywhere angels are spoken off in Genesis 1-3 and possibly all of Scripture (who knows????) it is believed to be Jesus in disguise. The reason they believe this is to force trinitarian dogma upon the text, because of the inclusion of "us" and "our".....

Rom. 16
[25] Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Mat.13[35] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

EDIT: though you can't see it at the moment, the limited amount of "us" and "our" in plurality, is clearly shown as being ONLY TWO, being One together as Holy Spirit in John 14
[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and  WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with him.

 

[Keturah]

Because the enumerable angels were given the task of Creating. Their involvement is all over Genesis 1-11. Prolific involvement!

@face2face
Would you care to explain this?
Please do it on said thread, not this one to disrupt the OP.
Thanks!

 

[face2face]

Because the enumerable angels were given the task of Creating. Their involvement is all over Genesis 1-11. Prolific involvement!

@Keturah you know this right? God uses His angels to do all manner of tasks. This shouldn't come as a shock that God shares His Power with Angels, sinful men/women and Christ himself. Maybe you think Job 38:7 isn't the angels singing for joy at creation having no involvement???

Here is an example for you to chew on!

Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those (you) who will inherit salvation? So from this you would say the angels are there to help you to inherit salvation right? Firstly, its not yours yet!...otherwise it wouldn't be an inheritance! Hebrews 1:14

Now having done all these works, do these same angels rejoice in heaven when one repents?

Jesus, "tell's you Keturah, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents" (Luke 15:10)

The shock an awe on your face simply told me you dont know what the involvement of Angels are in creation and in your salvation.

That's really sad.

F2F

 

[Jack]

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

 

[Keturah]

@Keturah you know this right? God uses His angels to do all manner of tasks. This shouldn't come as a shock that God shares His Power with Angels, sinful men/women and Christ himself. Maybe you think Job 38:7 isn't the angels singing for joy at creation having no involvement???

Here is an example for you to chew on!

Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those (you) who will inherit salvation? So from this you would say the angels are there to help you to inherit salvation right? Firstly, its not yours yet!...otherwise it wouldn't be an inheritance! Hebrews 1:14

Now having done all these works, do these same angels rejoice in heaven when one repents?

Jesus, "tell's you Keturah, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents" (Luke 15:10)

The shock an awe on your face simply told me you dont know what the involvement of Angels are in creation and in your salvation.

That's really sad.

F2F

So you deny the deity of Jesus, his part in creation as well as God's part then disparage the very Holy Spirit inspired word of God & his creation.

We are completely DONE... IGNORE 4 YOU....AGAIN!

 

[Jack]

So you deny the deity of Jesus, his part in creation as well as God's part then disparage the very Holy Spirit inspired word of God & his creation.

We are completely DONE... IGNORE 4 YOU....AGAIN!

I believe you're absolutely right! He also denies "the everlasting fire"that Jesus clearly warned us about. He seems to have a LOT in common with JW's and actually commends JW's but denies being JW.

 

[face2face]

So you deny the deity of Jesus, his part in creation as well as God's part then disparage the very Holy Spirit inspired word of God & his creation.

We are completely DONE... IGNORE 4 YOU....AGAIN!

Your tanties do nothing to me Keturah - do as you please.

 

[Johann]

Because the enumerable angels were given the task of Creating. Their involvement is all over Genesis 1-11. Prolific involvement!

Creating what exactly.
Johann.

 

[Johann]

Because the enumerable angels were given the task of Creating. Their involvement is all over Genesis 1-11. Prolific involvement!

This is error-right here.
J.

 

[Johann]

Your tanties do nothing to me Keturah - do as you please.

A question you refuse to answer.
J.

 

[Wrangler]

@Keturah you know this right? God uses His angels to do all manner of tasks.

So you deny the deity of Jesus

Not an answer to @face2face question, now is it?

The deity of Christ really has nothing to do with the point.

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Agreed, YHWH is the Creator WHO created but HOW he created is not detailed. One more point, is the word there is not "God" but heavenly being.

In the beginning Elohim created heaven and earth. (NOG)

If the entire argument boils down to what sense of the word "Elohim" is invoked in v1, it is a weak argument. So, it is not unreasonable to conclude the Angels were involved with Creation in some way.

 

[Johann]

If the entire argument boils down to what sense of the word "Elohim" is invoked in v1, it is a weak argument. So, it is not unreasonable to conclude the Angels were involved with Creation in some way.

"In the beginning" Bereshith (BDB 912) is the Hebrew title of the book. We get the name Genesis from the Septuagint translation. This is the beginning of history but not of God's activity (cf. Matt. 25:34; John 17:5,25; Eph. 1:4; Titus 1:2; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Pet. 1:19-20; Rev. 13:8). R. K. Harrison says it should be translated "by way of beginning" (Introduction to the Old Testament, p. 542 footnote 3). John H. Walton, The Lost World of Genesis One says it introduces a period of time (p. 45).

Then he will say to the ones on his right, Come! Baruchei Avi (Blessed of my Father), receive the bechorah (inheritance), the Malchut prepared for you from before Hivvased HaOlam (the establishing of the world).

And now give me kavod, Avi, along with Yourself with the kavod which I was having with You before HaOlam came to be [Yn 1:1 3; Prov 8:30; 30:4].

Avi HaTzaddik, indeed the world did not have da'as of You, but I knew You, and these ones knew that You sent me.

Just as He picked us out to be part of Hashem's Bechirim (Chosen Ones) before the hivvased tevel (foundation of the world), that we should be Kadoshim and without mum (defect, VAYIKRA 22:20) before Him in ahavah: [VAYIKRA 11:44; 20:7; SHMUEL BAIS 22:24; TEHILLIM 15:2]

Verse one tells us what God will do in vv. 3-31. Verse 2 tells us what the earth was like before it was ordered. Notice that the planet with its water was already in existence. This is not an account of the beginning of water but the organization of this planet for human life.

"God" Elohim (BDB 43) is a PLURAL form of the general name for God in the Ancient Near East, El (BDB 42). When referring to the God of Israel the verb is usually (6 exceptions) SINGULAR.

The rabbis say that it speaks of God as creator, provider and sustainer of all life on planet earth (cf. Ps. 19:1-6; 104). Notice how often this name for Deity is used in chapter 1. The ANE's worldview was spiritual not material. These nations shared a worldview that is alien to modern, western, materialistic, cause-and-effect naturalism.



I believe that this verse is an independent clause: Ibn Ezra says that it is a dependent clause with the emphasis on Gen. 1:2 while Rashi says that Gen. 1:2 is a parenthesis and the emphasis is on Gen. 1:3. Modern dispensational commentators say that Gen. 1:1 is a dependent clause in order to support their view of a previous fall (the gap theory). See a good brief discussion in NIDOTTE, vol. 3, pp. 1025-1026, #2.

The Bible does not discuss or reveal the origin of God. He has always existed (cf. Ps. 90:2). There is surely mystery here. Mankind simply cannot grasp the fullness of God!

"created" Bara (cf. Gen. 1:1,21,27; 2:3,4) is the Hebrew VERB (BDB 135 I, KB 153, Qal PERFECT) used exclusively for God's creative activity (used most in Isaiah 40-66). Its basic meaning is to fashion by cutting (BDB 135 III, in the Piel stem). God willed into being everything but Himself by a process of dividing, separating, or cutting.

Psalm 33:6,9; Heb. 11:3 and 2 Pet. 3:5 present original creation (cosmology) by God's spoken word (fiat) from nothing (ex nihilo, cf. 2 Macc. 7:28). Whatever bara (Qal and Niphal) implies, it accentuates God's activity and purpose! See John H. Walton, The Lost World of Adam and Eve, pp. 29-34.

The Bible asserts that creation has a beginning point. Twenty-first century science would characterize this as the "big bang." Naturalism can now not assert an unlimited regression back in time. However, it is probable that Genesis 1 refers to the beginning of a functioning earth, not the material beginning of matter (see John H. Walton, The Lost World of Genesis One and Genesis 1 As Ancient Cosmology).

"the heavens" The word "heavens" (BDB 1029) may be used in several senses:

it refers to the atmosphere of the earth as in Gen. 1:8 and 20
it may refer to the entire cosmos (i.e., all material existence)
it may refer to the creation of all things visible (material) and invisible (angels, heaven as God's throne)
If option three is true then a parallel would be Col. 1:16. If not, then Genesis 1 focuses only on the organization of this planet. The Bible emphasizes a geocentric perspective (i.e., creation seen as a spectator on this planet would have observed it).
Utley.

That is your assumption @Wrangler-

In the beginning Elohim created hashomayim (the heavens, Himel) and haaretz (the earth).

And the earth was tohu vavohu (without form, and void); and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the face of the waters.

And Elohim said, Let there be light: and there was light [Tehillim 33:6,9].

Nowhere-in the text do I see involvement of "angels" as agents in the creation account.
Johann.

 

[face2face]

Agreed, YHWH is the Creator WHO created but HOW he created is not detailed. One more point, is the word there is not "God" but heavenly being.

In the beginning Elohim created heaven and earth. (NOG)

If the entire argument boils down to what sense of the word "Elohim" is invoked in v1, it is a weak argument. So, it is not unreasonable to conclude the Angels were involved with Creation in some way.

Spot on Wrangler! as I detailed an answer to Keturah (today) but they departed the conversation and placed me on ignore - O well.
I'm not dogmatic on this teaching, as its far from salvation doctrine, I hope all involved agrees to this - ultimately we have proven Yahweh is the Prime mover but precisely how we dont know for sure! He is the One who Creates Physical and Spiritaul life; Yahweh is the One who gave Jesus life and raised him from the dead...we also estalished God is the One who gave His Son power and authority. I tried to get Behold to acknowledge this but that ended with a heavy exchange of words.

My last conversation with Johann had him working on Jesus being the Last Adam from 1 Corinthians 15:45. I'm yet to received his own words on this verse and its context.

I notice a bunch of replies in another post from him but nothing worth responding to.

I was wondering when you and @APAK would enter the scene ;)

 

[Johann]

Spot on Wrangler! as I detailed an answer to Keturah (today) but they departed the conversation and placed me on ignore - O well.

Good for @Keturah
Johann.

 

[face2face]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1

Because of the prolific involvement of the Elohim (angels) in Genesis 1-11, and their involvement in the New Creation, which is clearly recorded by Christ himself and the Apostle Paul, it makes perfect sense they would be given tasks in creating the physical heavens and earth as well. I don’t see why a Christian would oppose this as I don’t see any gain doctrinally from it.

The Hebrew is bar a Elohim: a verb in the singular number combined with a noun in the plural: "Mighty ones he created". The use of a singular verb with a plural noun suggests one motivating power manifested through a multiplicity of agents. The one motivating power in creation was the "Spirit of God" (v2) or Yahweh Who worked through the angels to bring the creation into existence.

@Johann I notice Bob also translates God as Elohim, which is almost always translated "mighty ones" referring to either the Angels or the Saints or even natural Israel.

It’s not worth getting hot under the collar about and certainly not worth getting angry about as one has done.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Johann

Not sure if you noticed, not only does Utley reference the Elohim as being plural in his commentary of Gen 1:26, he quotes 1 Kings 22:19

22:19 Micaiah said, “That being the case, hear the word of the Lord. I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, with all the heavenly assembly standing on his right and on his left.

This is Yahweh Elohim perfectly represented.

Other translations state "multitudes of heaven standing around him".

F2F

 

[Johann]

The Hebrew is bar a Elohim: a verb in the singular number combined with a noun in the plural: "Mighty ones he created". The use of a singular verb with a plural noun suggests one motivating power manifested through a multiplicity of agents. The one motivating power in creation was the "Spirit of God" (v2) or Yahweh Who worked through the angels to bring the creation into existence.

Interesting where you get your information from-

https://www.gnosticdoctrine.com/2021/06/sophia-and-creation.html

Show me ONE Scripture reference where God worked THROUGH/DIA THE angels-to bring about the creation in existence-


Who is the God of the Old Testament?

How surprising and straightforward is the answer; yet it eludes the thinking of many. Genesis begins with God creating our world. The apostle John opens his gospel similarly by revealing who that God is:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. . . . And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:1-3, 14)

As this passage patently declares, the Word is Jesus Christ. He is God and is the Creator God of Genesis. “All things were made through Him.”

“Word” here is translated from the Greek logos. Strong’s Concordance begins its definition as “something said.” In his Key Word Study Bible, Spiros Zodhiates begins his entry with “to speak.” Recall the method the Creator God used to create: He used words; He spoke. The Logos, the One who speaks, spoke this world and everything in it into existence (Genesis 1:3, 6, 9, 11, 14, 20, 24, and 26).

Paul also testifies in Colossians 1:16 that Christ was the Creator:

For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Paul repeats John’s idea in John 1:1 of the world being created “through Him,” indicating that Another authorized the works carried out by the Word. In the same verse, John affirms that another God Being was present: “the Word was with God.” Genesis 1:26 begins, “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image.’” The “Us” is the Word and the other God, the One we now know as the Father (John 17:5).

What you say-and what stands written-is not the same.
Nothing here re "angels being agents in creation!"

No need to respond.
J.