There is perhaps no original sin

[Raccoon1010]

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

What this says to me is that not all mankind sinned like Adam. So then thru Adam came the fall, but not to all.

Thoughts?

 

[amadeus]

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

What this says to me is that not all mankind sinned like Adam. So then thru Adam came the fall, but not to all.

Thoughts?

But according to what you quoted, they were in the reign of death! Is this not more final even than sin? Isn't this where following sin takes us?

Jas 1:15

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Life, real Life, was lost to Adam & Eve and their offspring. People had hope if they looked forward to the Messiah coming, no Life until Jesus brought Life to men:

Joh 10:10

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

 

[Raccoon1010]

But according to what you quoted, they were in the reign of death! Is this not more final even than sin? Isn't this where following sin takes us?

Jas 1:15

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Life, real Life, was lost to Adam & Eve and their offspring. People had hope if looked forward to the Messiah coming, no Life until Jesus brought Life to men:

Joh 10:10

The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Good point. Death entered the human race thru Adam's fall. I guess I find it interesting that there are some that didn't fall in sin.

 

[amadeus]

Good point. Death entered the human race thru Adam's fall. I guess I find it interesting that there are some that didn't fall in sin.

Yes, they took hold of the Hope that God held out to them by calling on the name of the Lord:

Ge 4:26

And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

They called upon the name even they did not know the actual name as we are able to know the name. Consider the Manoah's question here:

Jud 13:17	And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
Jud 13:18	And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

 

[marks]

Good point. Death entered the human race thru Adam's fall. I guess I find it interesting that there are some that didn't fall in sin.

Romans 5:12-14 KJV
12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

No one could repeat Adam's transgression because the way to the garden was blocked, and no one could access the forbidden tree.

Just the same, though, everyone died because everyone sinned, even though the sins were not counted against them, since God hadn't given a Law yet that they had broken. Still, everyone sinned.

And sin is sin, and sin kills, whether of not God holds you judicially guilty.

Like driving where there is no speed limit. You can kill yourself by driving too fast, but you won't get a ticket.

Much love!

 

[amadeus]

Romans 5:12-14 KJV
12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

No one could repeat Adam's transgression because the way to the garden was blocked, and no one could access the forbidden tree.

Just the same, though, everyone died because everyone sinned, even though the sins were not counted against them, since God hadn't given a Law yet that they had broken. Still, everyone sinned.

Whether sin held against them or not, they were all dead. Everyone was dead in the eyes of God until Jesus brought Life and people began to Live again.

And sin is sin, and sin kills, whether of not God holds you judicially guilty.

Like driving where there is no speed limit. You can kill yourself by driving too fast, but you won't get a ticket.

Much love!

What dead man needs to be punished? Is he not already dead?

 

[Jack]

We are all sinners.

 

[Gottservant]

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

What this says to me is that not all mankind sinned like Adam. So then thru Adam came the fall, but not to all.

Thoughts?

Part of Adam's sin, was sin to come - that is, he did not shy from persisting to sin.

So by anticipation, all fell into sin - even though, they did not necessarily sin the same way (as your Romans quote, points out).

If there was no original sin (as the Thread Title said), lawlessness would not abound and no one would grow cold - so there is a danger in taking this position (of no original sin), because if you are wrong, you will be more greatly snared (everyone sinning around you, and you not knowing why)!

 

[Raccoon1010]

Part of Adam's sin, was sin to come - that is, he did not shy from persisting to sin.

So by anticipation, all fell into sin - even though, they did not necessarily sin the same way (as your Romans quote, points out).

If there was no original sin (as the Thread Title said), lawlessness would not abound and no one would grow cold - so there is a danger in taking this position (of no original sin), because if you are wrong, you will be more greatly snared (everyone sinning around you, and you not knowing why)!

No, the thread title is about "original sin" which from my understanding is saying babies need to be baptized because babies enter into sin. Which is something that I don't believe.

 

[Aunty Jane]

No, the thread title is about "original sin" which from my understanding is saying babies need to be baptized because babies enter into sin. Which is something that I don't believe.

The "original sin" of Adam is what plunged the human race into death. (Rom 5:12) Sin's penalty is death, so because it was passed on to all of his children as an awful inheritance, there was no way for humans to redeem themselves, so God sent his precious son to pay the debt that Adam left for his offspring.

Baptizing babies does not save them because Christian baptism isn't just a dunk or a sprinkle with water...it has to be a choice on the part of one who is old enough to make that decision to "become" a footstep follower of Jesus Christ. Babies get through on the merit of their parent(s) standing with God....even if only one is a Christian.
"For the unbelieving husband is made holy because of his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy because of her husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy." (1 Cor 7:14)
When they reach the age where they can make the decision to serve God of their own volition, then they will be baptized as a "Christian" for all that it means.

 

[Lambano]

"Original sin" is one nobody ever thought of before, right?

 

[Lambano]

This one doesn't quite fit the "Adam and Eve in the Garden" narrative, but I look around (and inside myself) and I see the truth in it.

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to an unfit mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful. 32. ... they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. (Romans 1:28-32b)

Ahh, the "unfit mind". The gift that keeps on giving.

These are the verses I would use to support the concept of "Original Sin". Even though we are capable (and even THAT'S debatable) of works of great love and altruism and self-sacrifice, we are inherently self-centered. And I notice that the self-centeredness doesn't completely go away when we come to Christ.

 

[Raccoon1010]

This one doesn't quite fit the "Adam and Eve in the Garden" narrative, but I look around (and inside myself) and I see the truth in it.

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to an unfit mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful. 32. ... they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. (Romans 1:28-32b)

Ahh, the "unfit mind". The gift that keeps on giving.

These are the verses I would use to support the concept of "Original Sin". Even though we are capable (and even THAT'S debatable) of works of love and altruism and self-sacrifice, we are inherently self-centered. And I notice that the self-centeredness doesn't completely go away when we come to Christ.

I remember being a child. Still have memories from around 2 years old. And I was pretty innocent and loving. Didn't notice any original sin really. But I think the scripture you quoted would be more the product of temptations from Satan and giving into those thoughts and actions.

 

[Lambano]

I remember being a child. Still have memories from around 2 years old. And I was pretty innocent and loving. Didn't notice any original sin really. But I think the scripture you quoted would be more the product of temptations from Satan and giving into those thoughts and actions.

I wonder if John Calvin ever had to teach a class of two year olds? My wife used to be a "teacher" (really, glorified baby-sitter) in a private Montessori school. She had the toddlers. We may think of children as innocent and loving, but they are also very self-centered. They have their wants and their needs; they want what they want, when they want it, and they'll throw temper tantrums until they get it.

They had a poster similar to this on the classroom wall:

10 Property laws of a toddler

1. If I like it, it’s mine.
2. If it’s in my hand, it’s mine.
3. If I can take it from you, it’s mine.
4. If I had it a little while ago, it’s mine.
5. If it’s mine, it must never appear to be yours in any way.
6. If I’m doing or building something, all the pieces are mine.
7. If it looks just like mine, it’s mine.
8. If I saw it first, it’s mine.
9. If you are playing with something and you put it down, it automatically becomes mine.
10. If it’s broken, it’s yours.

Children have to be TAUGHT to share. They have to be TAUGHT to play nice with the other boys and girls.

 

[Grailhunter]

@dev553344

Here is the deal....LOL

I call my ministry the Johnny Appleseed of Truth.....seek both truth and lies. To share the Truth and expose the lies.

Misconceptions can come from the scriptures like.... Which Commandments did God call the Ten Commandments?

There are false beliefs promulgated to serve a religious political end.....the Trinity….truth Father, Son, Holy Spirit add up to three every time.

False beliefs that are promulgated to condemn women and sex......Original Sin.....the word Fornication...neither are biblical words.

Intelligent rule; If the word or phrase is not in the scriptures….that is a red flag and the magnifying glass comes out and they undergo strict scrutiny.

The Bible definitely shows that human natured is flawed, we will do bad even if we know better and we will do bad even if we don't know better. LOL But babies are not born with sin on their souls nor do they go to hell if they die early. But that is human nature, not man being cursed or controlled by sin. God gave some good advise, here is one example; "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” Genesis 4:7

The author of the doctrine of Original Sin was St Augustine.

"St Augustine, who largely devised the theory of Original Sin, thought that Original Sin was transmitted from generation to generation through sexual intercourse."

To understand the origins of Original Sin you have to do a study on St. Augistine and the easiest way to that is read his writings, they are still in print. Confessions (c. 400) and The City of God (c. 413–426), shaped the practice of biblical exegesis on several topics and helped lay the foundation for much of medieval and modern Christian thought. .... This amounted to a tragedy, the single worst thing to happen to Christianity since the medieval Catholic Church.

His own writings will show you that he was a sexual deviant and completely out of control. An egotist that thought if He could not control himself....no one could....so they were tainted with sin to begin with. Because he could not control himself with sex and women, he hated sex and women....under the belief that they controlled him and he was helpless to resist. In the end he pretty much locked himself away from women. So he came up with a doctrine where sin emerges from the female vagina and wreaks the world. Sin created by sex and delivered by a dirty, nasty vagina to curse all mankind. cuckoo! cuckoo! cuckoo! This line of thinking promoted the belief that women were in league with the devil and justified torturing mothers and killing them. Because if they are mothers they had to have done the nasty and are not pure....the Church then defines purity as celibate because sex causes sin and procreation is dirty, nasty, and sin producing. more cuckoo! cuckoo! cuckoo! Another tragedy is that purity, instead of being a matter of character and devotion becomes linked to the status of the genitals. Effectively religious crotch sniffing. This is the reason for celibacy with the clergy in the Catholic Church. They could be as corrupt as the day is long but if they were celibate they were pure.

On the topic of sexual desire Augustine had this to say....“Who can control this when its appetite is aroused? No one! In the very movement of this appetite, then, it has no ‘mode’ that responds to the decisions of the will. But when those who delight in this pleasure are not moved to it at their own will, whether they confine themselves to lawful or transgress to a unlawful pleasures; but sometimes this lust importunes them in spite of themselves, and sometimes fails them when they desire to feel it, so that though lust rages in the mind, it stirs not in the body .....Written by St. Augustine

“This diabolical excitement of the genitals…” (As St. Augustine refers to the act of sex.) …is evidence of Adam’s original sin which is now transmitted “from the mother’s womb,” tainting all human beings with sin, and leaving them incapable of choosing good over evil, or determining their own destiny.” ....Written by St. Augustine

“We must conclude, that a husband is meant to rule over his wife as the spirit rules over the flesh. and “the flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh.” ....Written by St. Augustine

Referring to the Hell that awaits women, Augustine in his famous Latin sermon ''Ad Fratres in Eremitate Sermo LXIX.'' He describes how Satan seized the damned female and commanded his fellow devils to “pierce her eyes with forks as she enjoyed looking at unclean things, pierce her mouth as she used them for blasphemy, pierce her heart, as she did not harbor piety, compassion, clemency, and forgiveness there, pierce her hands with the heavy fork forged in Hell since she reached with them at things unclean and did not use them to distribute alms and help her neighbors, use the fiery forks to pierce her legs that she used to dance and meet her lovers.' Then to the gates of Hell she is carried and then '"out steps a hideous, horrible dragon, always ready to devour sinners. The dragon inserts the female into his mouth, full of stench. After chewing and digesting its prey, the dragon vomits the female into a fiery lake, where millions of other sinners wait for their trial by our Lord."
.....Written by St. Augustine

St. Augustine was a deeply twisted and troubled individual and that reasoning made its way into Christianity.
Original Sin is all about Augustine's hatred and fear of woman and the vagina.

So the doctrine of Original Sin is false and a lie. There is a faction in Christianity that like to belittle Christians and get them to believe that they have no hope of being good and should succumb to evil.....this is where the OSAS and Universalism groups get their guidance and motivation from. Believing you can sin all ya what and still go to Heaven.

The Truth is we start out with a clean slate.....and mothers are pure....and women should be equal members in Christianity.

 

[Lambano]

“This diabolical excitement of the genitals…”

Some philosophers just contemplate their navels. Augustine went deeper. (Or at least, further south.)

 

[Raccoon1010]

I believe sin is taught by parents, family and other individuals that people encounter. Children are especially susceptible to being trained to do good or evil. I don't believe in original sin. I think that is a Catholic belief that I don't agree with, and there are a few of those beliefs that I don't agree with in the Catholic teachings.

 

[Raccoon1010]

I think the verse in the OP supports the fact that original sin is a false teaching, perhaps that verse is damning evidence, together with this:

James 14:17 Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Children's brains are still developing and incapable of knowing good from evil.

 

[Grailhunter]

I believe sin is taught by parents, family and other individuals that people encounter. Children are especially susceptible to being trained to do good or evil. I don't believe in original sin. I think that is a Catholic belief that I don't agree with, and there are a few of those beliefs that I don't agree with in the Catholic teachings.

Well that is a good question?
How do people learn to sin?
Parents are part of it....I agree.
Garbage in....garbage out....product of your environment?
But then society is there to teach them every evil.
The media is there in every form....TV shows, commercials and movies, radio, magazines, newspapers...the News itself.....we are bombarded from every direction with the message...."Evil is good...Evil is smart"

Parents and children in church.....children attending Christian schools.
Nothing is perfect, but sometimes your choices matter.

 

[Lambano]

Children's brains are still developing and incapable of knowing good from evil.

Education is about defining "good" and "evil". All children know is that they want something. And that is what "original sin" is all about.