Will you be caught up in the rapture or left-behind??

[ewq1938]

Israel is NOT part of the church. The reverse is true. Gentile believers, also called goyim, are part of Israel.

Israel is the church, and were the first members of it. All others in Christ join with them.

All not in Christ are not Israel.

 

[Timtofly]

It is historical and biblical.

Your 69th week ending long before Jesus is not even in the43 ballpark!

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

So 483 years from the command to rebuild Jerusalem to Messiah is 483 years and after the 483 years, Jesus will die!

So no, you did not quote Scripture.

Every prophecy left unfulfilled about the end times has to fit in the last week or 7 years!

You have not done the math, nor quoted all the Scriptures. The Cross fit into that 70th week just fine.

 

[[email protected]]

Six million dead Jews do not prove that the tribulation has already happened. They were not even in the land when they were slaughtered and Scripture proves they must be in the land for the trib to begin. I do stand corrected about RCC, they are post mil not amil, but they hold the millenium to be the church age and it goes on for a long long long time and not just a 1,000 years. I call them amil because they reject the 1,000 years as literal.

We can argue back and forth over many things but I would recommend one book to you.

Footsteps of the Messiah by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum.

He is pre trib, premil, dispensational teacher and brings to bear enormous scripture with little to no allegory to twist passages to mean something different.

I CAN RECOMMEND ONE BOOK TO YOU.

It's called the Bible. Read it.

I do not infuse my mind with lies and innuendo and antisemitic dogma.

Who is Dr. Fruchyou?

I am also trained in Theology. I hold a seminary degree in it. What does that matter to you? Nothing at all because you will believe what you will believe and to hell with straight interpretation of the Bible.

Even Nazis quoted their favorite 'experts'. You do no less. READ THE BIBLE. What does it say? It says the Tribulation will only happen ONCE? Which part of ONCE do you not understand? I submit you consider the Jewish people to be of no account because they have already suffered that which God predicted would happen to them....at the hands of Christians, btw.

Who is the Jew to you?

To God the Jew is HIS people, HIS kingdom and HIS favorite chosen.

The rest are invited to participate in salvation. Most of them will willingly lie about the gospel and kill the Jew who says otherwise. THAT is what we're really discussing here, not pet publications by some self-endorsed professor of religious bovine excrement.

READ THE BIBLE.

That's where you'll find the truth. Do your own homework instead of being lazy and letting someone else do it for you.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[07-07-07]

we know this. but here are historic facts.

Abraham is in heaven.

Yes, he is.

Israelis were part of the church already

There are Messianic Jews, believers in Jesus as the Messiah, in the world right now.

Israelis have been getting saved in all generations

Yes, they have.

These 144,000 are not he first Jewish martyrs, nor the first to rise from the dead.

The 144,000 are not martyrs, but rather the first fruits of Israel during the tribulation period. They will be caught up in a Rapture.

They are not the first descendants of Abraham.

No, but they are of the lineage of Abraham; 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel, who was begotten of Issac, who was begotten of Abraham.

So what first fruits are they?

The 144,000 are described as the "first fruits to God and to the Lamb" (Revelation 14:4)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That's only true of the opposite opinion.And there lies the disagreement.The 7th seal does not reveal any trumpets. The trumpets are introduced once all the seals have been. Just because something follows the 7th seal does not make it part of the seal.
Revelation 8

King James Version


8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

This is a nit picking on your part. Teh seal is opened, there is silence and 7 angles with 7 trumpets are revealed. They are revealed after the 7th seal.

Grammar does not support your interpretation.

Then I await you showing us how I am wrong.

Revelation is more complex than you realize.

Having taqught it on the college level for over 3 decades, I am fully aware of the complexity of revelation.

No, they are Amills.

I have a feeling that depending on which catholic scholar you choose you will get an amil or post mil view.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You have not done the math, nor quoted all the Scriptures. The Cross fit into that 70th week just fine.

So now you have the 70th week c. 33-40AD?

Who taught you this stuff.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Even Nazis quoted their favorite 'experts'. You do no less. READ THE BIBLE. What does it say? It says the Tribulation will only happen ONCE? Which part of ONCE do you not understand? I submit you consider the Jewish people to be of no account because they have already suffered that which God predicted would happen to them....at the hands of Christians, btw.

Well having read teh bible for over 49 years now I think I do
!

Having read and listened to the NT over 400 times and the OT 10 times completely and portions dozens of times. I do, thank you. do you sit under a pastor? so you do not read anything from anybody anytime?

I am also trained in Theology. I hold a seminary degree in it. What does that matter to you? Nothing at all because you will believe what you will believe and to hell with straight interpretation of the Bible.

Well I am a hard core literal hermeneutic person. I fully believe in the literal, historical and grammatic understanding of the
Bible. Also knowing that symbols are used, but Scripture also defines those Scriptures.

Next complaint about me?

Who is the Jew to you?

To God the Jew is HIS people, HIS kingdom and HIS favorite chosen.

I agree 100%

The rest are invited to participate in salvation. Most of them will willingly lie about the gospel and kill the Jew who says otherwise. THAT is what we're really discussing here, not pet publications by some self-endorsed professor of religious bovine excrement.

So now you are an expert of a believer who writes without ever reading anything they wrote? How high and mighty and arrogant of you!

Why should I believe what you write. Why should anyone consider it anything but religious bovine excrement? what do you offer to support you implication you are head and shoulders above the rest of believers?

READ THE BIBLE.

That's where you'll find the truth. Do your own homework instead of being lazy and letting someone else do it for you.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Instead of pretending to practice mind reading (which you suck at) and make presumptious assumptions without bothering to ask questions of someone, maybe you should ask questions. All you do is show how arrogant you are and pseudo-spiritual and are heading for a great fall so you jmay learn to accept other believers!

If you have read any books other than the bible after your graduation , there is a word to describe you ---hypocrite. iF YOU HAVE LISTENED TO PREACHERS PREACH THAT SAME WORD APPLIES, FOR YOU ARE LEARNING FROM A SOURCE OTHER THAN THE bIBLE.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The 144,000 are not martyrs, but rather the first fruits of Israel during the tribulation period. They will be caught up in a Rapture.

Can you show the passage that declares a second rapture just for the 144,000? I know the passage for the rapture of the church, but in 49 years I have never seen a passage saying 144,000 caught up to heaven also.

If I am understanding you correctly, after teh rapture of the church, the 144,000 are the very first Jews saved once the church is gone? Scriptures?

 

[PinSeeker]

Israel is the church...

Well, not solely... We are in the church age, since Pentecost, in which, as Paul says in Ephesians 2, we are no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord... in Whom we are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

...and were the first members of it. All others in Christ join with them.

Well, joined the New Testament Church of Christ, which is part of God's Israel (see below).

All not in Christ are not Israel.

Yes they are... Old Testament believers were in Christ also. You might remember Hebrews 1:1-2, where the writer says to us New Testament believers, Jew and Gentile, even today:

"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son..."​

And you might remember what Paul says in Romans 11:25-26:

"...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..."​

This is only shortly after what Paul said in the same letter to the Romans in Romans 2:28-29:

"For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."​

And along the same lines, this same Paul wrote in Galatians 3:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise."​

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Six million dead Jews PROVE the Tribulation has already happened in real time.

Protestants deny it - as do militant Muslims and atheists. They are in good company these days as they have all betrayed the gospel of Jesus Christ - if not the savior Himself.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

So tell me when did the AOD enter the temple declaring Himself God?

When did the Jews flee as in Rev. 12?

When did Israel sign an covenant with the AC.

When did the skies roll up as a scroll vis a vis REv. 6 revealing the tribulation arrived?

The killing of 1/3 of the Jewish population is definitely tribulation for Israel, but during the tribulation of Matt. 24 2/3 of Israel will be killed!

Quite the contrary, the RCC as well as protestants promote the idea of a FUTURE reign of the Son of Man upon earth.

Well as it is explicitly and unambiguolsy declared by Jesus Himself- yes Jesus will physically return.

You deny the death of six million Jews and the Biblical prediction it would happen?

Only Nazis and fanatic Muslims believe such a lie.

YOU, like the aforementioned inhuman antisemitic hate mongers, would like nothing better than to see more innocent Jewish blood shed upon the land. You disgust me with your doctrine of demons.

What kind of murderous fool are you? Certainly no Christian would wish the repetition of the Holocaust upon God's People Israel.

You are no Christian when you deny the horror of the Holocaust and the death of innocent millions.

No human being in his right mind would EVER join himself to a church that taught such a filthy thing.....unless of course he was an avowed Nazi.

Well as I never denied the death of 6,000,000 Jews during WW 2 all your venom you spewed towards me and my church are merely you bearing false witness against a brother in your haughty arrogance!

Until you apologoze on this thread for spreading lies about me, I do not wish to converse further with a spreader of lies.

 

[Timtofly]

So now you have the 70th week c. 33-40AD?

Who taught you this stuff.

Never said that. Gabriel never defined the 70th week as time. While saying that 70 weeks would happen, Gabriel only defined 69 weeks. Then Gabriel declared only the coming Messiah the Prince.

Since the Prince part is still future the end of the 70 weeks involves that time as well as that of the Messiah. Gabriel never said the Messiah and Prince part would be fulfilled at the same time. In fact the Messiah was cut off, and the Prince was described as coming.

There is more than 1 gap. There was also a gap between the 7th and 8th week.

 

[ewq1938]

Well, not solely...

Yes solely. Others join them through spiritual grafting. All are olive branches though.

We are in the church age, since Pentecost

The church age started in the OT, with a newer church age starting with the 12 disciples...long before Pentecost. Pentecost was when the NT church GREW a lot in a short time, not the start of the church or a church age.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Never said that. Gabriel never defined the 70th week as time. While saying that 70 weeks would happen, Gabriel only defined 69 weeks. Then Gabriel declared only the coming Messiah the Prince.

Since the Prince part is still future the end of the 70 weeks involves that time as well as that of the Messiah. Gabriel never said the Messiah and Prince part would be fulfilled at the same time. In fact the Messiah was cut off, and the Prince was described as coming.

There is more than 1 gap. There was also a gap between the 7th and 8th week.

WOW what planet do you get this stuff from? Certainly not earth or heaven!

The 70th week is not a time while the other 69 weeks are a time? Especially seeing as the angel declared 70 weeks are determined for teh nation! and history has shown the first 69 weeks happened without a gap!

The 70th week begins with the Ac signing a covenant with Israel for one week (7years). that is the natural, normal, usual and grammatic way of readin gthis passage. How you are reading is a method not known to anybut you

 

[Timtofly]

WOW what planet do you get this stuff from? Certainly not earth or heaven!

The 70th week is not a time while the other 69 weeks are a time? Especially seeing as the angel declared 70 weeks are determined for teh nation! and history has shown the first 69 weeks happened without a gap!

The 70th week begins with the Ac signing a covenant with Israel for one week (7years). that is the natural, normal, usual and grammatic way of readin gthis passage. How you are reading is a method not known to anybut you

Once again, not what I posted.

Your interpretation is a made up human interpretation without any Scripture to prove your point.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Once again, not what I posted.

Your interpretation is a made up human interpretation without any Scripture to prove your point.

It is what you posted and I use SCripture to defend my positions.

You use your opinion of Scripture to establish and defend yours.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yes solely.

Israel ~ God's Israel ~ is not solely made up of the New Testament church, which includes Gentile believers.

Others join them through spiritual grafting. All are olive branches though.

And what does it mean to be grafted in, EWQ? Don't soft-pedal it, now...

The church age started in the OT, with a newer church age starting with the 12 disciples...long before Pentecost. Pentecost was when the NT church GREW a lot in a short time, not the start of the church or a church age.

Disagree. But... this is just not a matter worth really having any sort of contention over, I think. It might be interesting to know what you think justifies your opinion there... maybe. But I'll just say that Israel came to be long before the church age started. Jacob was renamed Israel by God, as you might remember (Genesis 32:28).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

It is what you posted and I use SCripture to defend my positions.

You use your opinion of Scripture to establish and defend yours.

I said Gabriel did not define it as time. Gabriel said there would be 69 weeks until the Messiah the Prince.

Then the 70th week was Messiah the Prince.

Whatever Jesus did as Messiah and as Prince defines the 70th week.

You have given the 70th week to the AC and to Satan.

And you defend that Satan and the AC defines the 70th week.

Yes, it is my opinion that Jesus is both Christ and King.

 

[ewq1938]

Israel ~ God's Israel ~ is not solely made up of the New Testament church, which includes Gentile believers.

I was speaking about something else. It has always been my position that the church started with Jewish believers and Gentiles believers join/grafted in.

And what does it mean to be grafted in, EWQ? Don't soft-pedal it, now...

It's self explanatory.

Disagree. But... this is just not a matter worth really having any sort of contention over, I think. It might be interesting to know what you think justifies your opinion there... maybe. But I'll just say that Israel came to be long before the church age started. Jacob was renamed Israel by God, as you might remember (Genesis 32:28).

Grace and peace to you.

I already addressed this. The church age started LONG ago. It did not start at Pentecost.

 

[PinSeeker]

It has always been my position that the church started with Jewish believers and Gentiles believers join/grafted in.

Hmm... okay.

(grafting in is) self explanatory.

No, many soft-pedal it, thereby not understanding it for what it truly is.

I already addressed this. The church age started LONG ago. It did not start at Pentecost.

All you said was, "The church age started in the OT, with a newer church age starting with the 12 disciples...long before Pentecost. Pentecost was when the NT church GREW a lot in a short time, not the start of the church or a church age." You touched on it, maybe, but you didn't really address it in any kind of substantive manner, and were far from offering any kind of Scriptural references for your holding these beliefs. But, fair enough. However...

I would submit to you that the first specific mention a church is by Jesus in His exchange with Peter in Matthew 16, where He says to Peter, "...you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." He's referring to the confession Peter has just made, that Jesus is the Christ and therefore the Rock of our salvation, on Whom our house should be built~ this is the rock His Church will be built upon ~ future tense, but I would argue both present and future are in view here.

Now, I should say that I don't completely disagree with you... Together with the Israelite believers of old, will all make up the congregation of the righteous who will stand in the judgment (Psalm 1). But Jesus came and opened the Gospel to Gentiles as well as Jews... so that now, as Paul says in Galatians 3, there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for (we believers) are all one in Christ Jesus. At the beginning of His earthly ministry, this is what He proclaimed, quoting from Isaiah:

"The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles ~ the people dwelling in darkness have seen a great light, and for those dwelling in the region and shadow of death, on them a light has dawned."​

[Isaiah 9, Matthew 4]​

​

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor."​

[Isaiah 61, Luke 4]​

This is the age ~ synonymous with God's millennium or Revelation 20:3-6 ~ in which Christ is building His church, as Paul says:

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit."​

[Ephesians 2:13-22]​

Grace and peace to you.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Jesus tells us to pray that we will be counted worthy to escape

I feel like this is clause is used in a way that was never intended. In this particular verse, the word that was translated to "escape" in English, does not have the meaning to avoid.

Did Christ say we should pray to be counted worthy to avoid all the things that will come or did He say we should pray to be counted worthy to be able to flee from all the things that will come?

It was to flee away from the things that will happen before the resurrection of the dead. Not that we will completely avoid it by not being present during it. To be able to flee means to have perseverance in things that when testing comes, we are able to stand.