Will you be caught up in the rapture or left-behind??

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Ronald Nolette

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Whatever Jesus did as Messiah and as Prince defines the 70th week.

You have given the 70th week to the AC and to Satan.

And you defend that Satan and the AC defines the 70th week.

Yes, it is my opinion that Jesus is both Christ and King.
Wrong again! I do not give the 70th week to the AC and Satan. I merely report and the bible says. the prince of the people to come is not Jesus. It is the antichrist.

Jesus never made a 7 year covenant with Israel
Jesus never caught the sacrifice and oblation to cease 3 1/2 years after teh covenant.
Jesus was not a Roman prince (the people who came and destroyed the sanctuary)

Just letting the bible speak for itself makes it easy to understand.

As we were not contending about your belief in Jesus as Christ and King, your last sentence is irrelevant and not germaine to our discussion.
 

No Pre-TB

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I merely report and the bible says. the prince of the people to come is not Jesus. It is the antichrist.
Ronald,

I realize you were trying to make a point, but shouldnt we be careful what we say the Bible says versus what our opinion is?

The Bible does not say the people of the prince to come is Antichrist. That is an opinion you believe, which the Bible does not conclusively say. It's a position you and some take and a position others do not.

the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; - KJV

There is no mention of a man of sin, a false prophet, a beast of the earth/sea, an Antichrist or anything other then "prince". As a matter of fact, the only prince mentioned in the entire prophecy is Christ.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Perhaps this is the reason ancient theologians and various other commentaries are undecided. Many can see a case for both; but we know only 1 is right. Hold onto what you believe and search it out. Just know, it is an opinion...not what the Bible say's verbatim.
 

Timtofly

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This is the age ~ synonymous with God's millennium or Revelation 20:3-6 ~ in which Christ is building His church, as Paul says:
Revelation 20 is not about building a church.

No one in the Millennium is outside of the church. This is subduing and filling the earth, yes, but all are a part of this church as you put it. No one is outside of the church unless they are destroyed from disobedience. The NT church was still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. In Revelation 20, no one is in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.
 

PinSeeker

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Revelation 20 is not about building a church.
Not specifically, no, but it is surely about God bringing his plan of redemption of His elect to completion, which involves him bringing the fullness of them into His Israel, and culminates in the return of Christ, the final Judgment, and the consummation of the Kingdom. It's really quite amazing that Revelation 20 gives folks such a hard time, but yet they have such strong opinions about it.

No one in the Millennium is outside of the church.
Disagree. Revelation 20:4-6 describes the ongoing events of the millennium under Christ, Who is reigning from heaven now. At it's conclusion, all the events described in Revelation 20:7-15 and 21:1-8 will take place... in relatively short order.

This is subduing and filling the earth, yes, but all are a part of this church as you put it. No one is outside of the church unless they are destroyed from disobedience.
I'm... not even sure what you're saying here, Timtofly. But there are dead folks walking among those of us who have been born again even as we speak, and will be until Jesus returns at the end of the age. But many will not remain dead, but will come to life and reign with Christ as many of us already have... this is the first resurrection, and we are indeed blessed to share in it.

The NT church was still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.
Disagree. Once one is in Christ, he or she is no longer in Adam, and he or she cannot be separated from Christ; they have been given to Him by the Father, and He will lose not one. It might be interesting to know how you might attempt to justify such a belief...

In Revelation 20, no one is in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.
Disagree... If we are to believe what you're saying here, Timtofly, then why do many ultimately not share in the first resurrection and thus are resurrected to judgment and subsequently share in the second death? That's quite the conundrum... :)

Like I said, people have such trouble with Revelation 20...

Grace and peace to you.
 

Timtofly

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Wrong again! I do not give the 70th week to the AC and Satan. I merely report and the bible says. the prince of the people to come is not Jesus. It is the antichrist.

Jesus never made a 7 year covenant with Israel
Jesus never caught the sacrifice and oblation to cease 3 1/2 years after teh covenant.
Jesus was not a Roman prince (the people who came and destroyed the sanctuary)

Just letting the bible speak for itself makes it easy to understand.

As we were not contending about your belief in Jesus as Christ and King, your last sentence is irrelevant and not germaine to our discussion.
Neither will some human imagined AC. The Prince to come is the Second Coming of Christ. Obviously you are looking for an AC, and not Jesus as King sitting on the throne.

You used no Scripture. Here is the Prince to come:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

There is no Covenant "made" in Daniel 9:27. The Covenant is confirmed with the many. This is the last act, prior to Jesus destroying the last of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Will who is left be destroyed or still be handed grace and mercy. This is the decision made at the 7th Trumpet, because those on earth were all declared to be in subjection to Jesus as King. The sacrifice and the oblation will cease anyway. There is no more sin, nor the remission of sin, which made the sacrifice and oblation necessary.

Do you think the AC will take away sin? The Prince to come is just as important as the Messiah in the fulfillment of these things:

"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

The Millennium reign is not just about killing people who are disobedient. You don't even quote the Scripture properly:

"and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"

You said the prince of the people to come. Rome was never mentioned in Daniel 9. It is Jesus' people because Jesus is the Prince to come. It was the Jewish revolt that brought down the wrath of the Romans. It was the Jewish people who killed themselves. It was the Jewish people in the besieged Jerusalem who burned up surplus food so their own people would die. It was the Jewish people who instead of surrender would have seen themselves dead and their city destroyed. Death by cop. They were so wicked and demonized, they would rather destroy themselves than allow those gathered in Jerusalem that Passover to leave peacefully at the mercy of the Romans. They could have burned down the Temple themselves as they already desecrated the sanctuary with the blood of their fellow Jews. No one can prove who burned down the Temple.

Titus did not want to raze Jerusalem. He wanted to capture it and use it for his own nefarious purposes. Saying that Jesus was the Prince to come violates no Scripture, not even the Scripture yet to happen in the future.

The Prince to come removes sin and sets up everlasting righteousness. Read it once again:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

This happens at the 6th Seal. Zechariah 14 happens at the 6th Seal. The final harvest is when Jesus and the angels are on the earth during the Trumpets and Thunders. The 7th Trumpet is the end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. There will be no more sacrifice and oblation. There will be no more Salvation through the shed blood on the Cross. God is going to completely remove sin and Adam's dead corruptible flesh at the 7th Trumpet.

Your version does what exactly? Did your antichrist use a temple for the remission of sin, and then stop allowing the remission of sin? There is no 7 year treaty in Daniel 9. What does a 7 year treaty even have to do with removing sin from the earth? Does the AC absolve sin like a pope would? Is this treaty supposed to remove Adam's dead corruptible flesh so some humans can be redeemed as sheep, and some cast into the LOF as goats? Is this treaty supposed to make trouble for Jacob so they are all killed to be removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh? Matthew 25:31-46 is all the lost tribes of Israel being gathered back to Jerusalem to stand before their King. They are separated as sheep from goats. The AC cannot do this. How would an AC even know who is from a lost tribe of Israel? The angels gather them out of every nation. How would the AC use angels to round up these sheep and goats in the worse time of trouble ever to be found on the earth?

You may say he doesn't, which is true, but then you deny it is Jesus as King, even though Jesus declared He would do just that when He returns with His angels. The stars falling to earth at the 6th Seal is just that. John uses that term several times in the book, and the 6th Seal is the Second Coming as that is how Jesus describes the Second Coming. All the angels will come to earth at the 6th Seal as symbolized by the stars falling to earth at that point.

Of course my last point is relevant. You claimed I was just giving my opinion. Am I to assume you don't think that, but claim the AC is the Prince that will bring the angels to separate the sheep from the goats per Matthew 25?

You don't even have a single verse from Scripture pointing out what your imagined AC as the Prince to come will do. Your whole 7 year treaty and AC are made up points to some fantastical narrative, not even in Scripture. You claim that Titus is one prince, and some AC is the other prince. There is only one Prince, the one to come. Matthew 25:31 proves Jesus is the Prince to come. Hebrew does not demand that Daniel 9:27 is 7 years. It could be translated as 7 days or 7 years, but there is not enough context, not even the fact Gabriel ended at 69 weeks leaving a 7 year period.

The Temple was not destroyed the day of the Cross. Even you cannot gap this 7 years using 70AD no matter how you spin it. In fact you have two totally separate events and have 2 different prince doing two different things.

All Gabriel said is that Jesus' people would destroy the city and sanctuary, and Jesus would take away the need for sacrifice and oblation. Some people claim all 7 years happened in the first century. Some claim it is all still in the future. So both sides ignore the point that as Messiah Jesus was the anointed one bringing the end of the transgression and sin, but as King would enforce that condition on earth for 1,000 years. So the first half was in the past, and the second half as King is when Jesus brings His angels to the earth. At some point the 3.5 years as King started, but gets shorter in length so the time of Jacob's trouble is shortened, and the fulness of the Gentiles lasts longer, allowing a larger harvest of redeemed at the Second Coming.

Nothing to do with an AC at all. Daniel 9:27 is the days of the 7th Trumpet. Not only can this set of 7 in Daniel 9:27 be translated as 7 days, but in Revelation 10 we see the fulfillment of this time as being declared over, the 70 weeks. The days of the 7th Trumpet clears up all mystery as given in the prophets.

"And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Is there more than one time period given as a mystery? While the promise in Daniel 9 was given to Israel, the mystery was that it included all Gentiles as well, who would accept the Atonement Covenant.

There is only one Covenant involved in sacrifice and oblation. Yet you change Covenant to treaty, and confirm to make.
 

ewq1938

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This is the age ~ synonymous with God's millennium or Revelation 20:3-6 ~ in which Christ is building His church, as Paul says:


The Millennium isn't about building the church. It's about a Theocracy lead by Christ and his immortal saints for the first time in human history. The church was built in the age prior to the Mill.
 

PinSeeker

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The Millennium isn't about building the church.
Well, yes it is. It's all through Scripture, not just Revelation 20.

It's about a Theocracy lead by Christ and his immortal saints for the first time in human history. The church was built in the age prior to the Mill.
Disagree, of course... :)

The millennium of Revelation 20:3 is the current Gospel age, at the beginning of which the angel came down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain...
Christ came, 2000+ years ago
...and He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended...
prevented him from preventing the spread of the Gospel
...and those who have not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands...
those who have not worshiped creation but the Creator, as Paul says in Romans 1
...came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
individuals who are made alive together with Christ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus as Paul says in Ephesians 2... caused to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ as Peter says in 1 Peter 1
...This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection!

Grace and peace to you, ewq.
 
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Timtofly

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Disagree. Once one is in Christ, he or she is no longer in Adam, and he or she cannot be separated from Christ; they have been given to Him by the Father, and He will lose not one. It might be interesting to know how you might attempt to justify such a belief...
That is not the point "being in something". You were born in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is your body. Do you have a different body from the one you were born with?
 

No Pre-TB

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Christ came, 2000+ years ago...and He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended...
If Satan was sealed then, how do we explain Satan still roaming like a hungry lion? If he was sealed, how does he currently roam freely?
If Satan was sealed then, how do we explain all the wars afterwards between nations that were deceived? Wars didn't end and people surely didn't beat their swords into pruning hooks and their daggers into gardening shovels.
If Satan was sealed then, how do we explain right at that time, instead of safety, the Christians were being rounded up and slain? fed to lions, pulled apart, tarred, burned alive, dragged through the streets by wild beasts, clubbed to death etc...
If Satan was sealed then, why didn't anyone write about it? We didn't hear about him being sealed till John penned Revelation approx 96AD. Not one early church father, not 1 apostle mentioned such a thing. Instead, they spoke how Satan is still actively attacking people. Demons were still being cast out of people. He was still the prince of the power over the air.


...and those who have not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands...
those who have not worshiped creation but the Creator, as Paul says in Romans 1...came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
God told John the beast was, and is not but will be. You are saying the beast in relation to John is and will not be. My daughter would call that a red flag.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying the resurrection already happened. yet the Bible said in 2 Timothy 2

Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
 

PinSeeker

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That is not the point "being in something".
LOL!

You were born in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is your body.
Well, yes, but in the death that he (and Eve) died on the very day they partook of the forbidden tree, just as God told Adam he would in Genesis 2:17. So alive in the body, but dead spiritually. This is what it means to be in Adam.

Do you have a different body from the one you were born with?
Of course not, but that's a non sequitur. We (if we are Christians) have been born again ~ of the Holy Spirit, so spiritually ~ and are now in Christ, and will be forevermore.

Grace and peace to you.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Ronald,

I realize you were trying to make a point, but shouldnt we be careful what we say the Bible says versus what our opinion is?

The Bible does not say the people of the prince to come is Antichrist. That is an opinion you believe, which the Bible does not conclusively say. It's a position you and some take and a position others do not.

the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; - KJV

There is no mention of a man of sin, a false prophet, a beast of the earth/sea, an Antichrist or anything other then "prince". As a matter of fact, the only prince mentioned in the entire prophecy is Christ.

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Perhaps this is the reason ancient theologians and various other commentaries are undecided. Many can see a case for both; but we know only 1 is right. Hold onto what you believe and search it out. Just know, it is an opinion...not what the Bible say's verbatim.
Danie 9 by itself gives no conclusive declaration as to who the Prince of the People who destroy Jerusalem is. Other than history proving He would be some sort of Roman ruler, that is all Daniel 9 tells us. to say it is Jesus is to twist Scripture beyond recognition.

But when you look at the whole counsel of Scripture concerning this 70th week and when it begins (when the this ruler makes a 7 year covenant with Israel) we can draw conclusions:

1. No ruler has yet to make a 7 year covenant.
2. Jesus warned of a future abomination of desolation, so it cannot be Antiochus IV HYstapes.
3. We know this ruler in the mid-point will cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease.
4. We know the man of sin , enters the temple and declares himself god.
5. Israel flees for its existence when the antichrist arises into the desert where God cares for the nation.
6. We know from Scripture that the AC declares genocide against Israel.

So drawing from all these facts, we conclude that the ruler is the AC.
 

PinSeeker

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If Satan was sealed then, how do we explain Satan still roaming like a hungry lion? If he was sealed, how does he currently roam freely?
If Satan was sealed then, how do we explain all the wars afterwards between nations that were deceived? Wars didn't end and people surely didn't beat their swords into pruning hooks and their daggers into gardening shovels.
If Satan was sealed then, how do we explain right at that time, instead of safety, the Christians were being rounded up and slain? fed to lions, pulled apart, tarred, burned alive, dragged through the streets by wild beasts, clubbed to death etc...
If Satan was sealed then, why didn't anyone write about it? We didn't hear about him being sealed till John penned Revelation approx 96AD. Not one early church father, not 1 apostle mentioned such a thing. Instead, they spoke how Satan is still actively attacking people. Demons were still being cast out of people. He was still the prince of the power over the air.
Satan is bound and sealed, meaning that his power to influence the nations is suppressed, which is exactly the distinction John makes in Revelation 20. Premillennialists and some postmillennialists associate this event with the advent of an extraordinary future era of peace and prosperity, contrasting with the present. But the binding of Satan has already taken place through Christ’s death and resurrection (John 12:31, Colossians 2:15, Revelation 12:9, Matthew 12:29). The present spread of the gospel to the nations, as initiated in Acts, is the result of a restriction on Satan’s power to deceive. Possibly this restriction on Satan’s power is closely associated with the present temporary demise of the Beast (Revelation 17:8). The deceiving of the nations takes place largely through the activity of the Beast (Revelation 13:14; Revelation 16:14; Revelation 19:20). As the Beast can suffer repeated defeats (Revelation 17:8,10), so Satan can suffer repeated defeats in his power over the nations. The loosing of Satan in Revelation 20:7-10 represents his final attempt, leading to his final defeat.

Satan's ability to influence/deceive individuals, however, is still a present reality, and this is what Peter is saying in 1 Peter 5:8. This has no bearing on his state of being bound ~ and sealed, at present ~ from deceiving the nations.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying the resurrection already happened...
The first resurrection, which hasn't happened for all of God's elect yet but surely will before Jesus returns, but has happened for those who, as Paul says in Ephesians 2, who have been made alive together with Christ and raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, and as Peter says in 1 Peter 1, who have been caused by God to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. We are blessed because we have shared and do share in the first resurrection. So yes, in that sense, but not yet physically; that will happen when Christ returns, in the hour when, as He says in John 5:28-29, when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

. yet the Bible said in 2 Timothy 2

Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Hmmm, yes, some in Paul's day were apparently of the idea, presumably because of false teaching, that believers had already entered the glorified post-resurrection state.

Grace and peace to you.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Neither will some human imagined AC. The Prince to come is the Second Coming of Christ. Obviously you are looking for an AC, and not Jesus as King sitting on the throne.

You used no Scripture. Here is the Prince to come:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

There is no Covenant "made" in Daniel 9:27. The Covenant is confirmed with the many. This is the last act, prior to Jesus destroying the last of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Will who is left be destroyed or still be handed grace and mercy. This is the decision made at the 7th Trumpet, because those on earth were all declared to be in subjection to Jesus as King. The sacrifice and the oblation will cease anyway. There is no more sin, nor the remission of sin, which made the sacrifice and oblation necessary.
All of this is your reading you ropinion into Scripture.

who taught you this?
 

Timtofly

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LOL!


Well, yes, but in the death that he (and Eve) died on the very day they partook of the forbidden tree, just as God told Adam he would in Genesis 2:17. So alive in the body, but dead spiritually. This is what it means to be in Adam.


Of course not, but that's a non sequitur. We (if we are Christians) have been born again ~ of the Holy Spirit, so spiritually ~ and are now in Christ, and will be forevermore.

Grace and peace to you.
Not only spiritually dead. Also physically dead. What do you think the word mortal means?

Dead corruptible flesh was given to Adam. God took away His permanent incorruptible physical body. The difference is in 2 Corinthians 5:1.

We don't become immortals, because that is pagan fantasy. But the Greeks were still correct in using the term mortal.

"And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."

As sons of God we will have permanent incorruptible physical bodies. In Adam we only have temporal corruptible dead physical bodies. We are the living dead. Those is the grave are just the dead. Nothing changes, just the old body returns to dust. God does not change the dust. We put on God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Then we put on the spirit. Only after the soul puts on both body and spirit will we be restored to God's image. Right now we are only in Adam's dead image. Genesis 5:1-3

"This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:"

Do you see the difference between life and death?
 

quietthinker

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Will you be caught up in the rapture or left-behind??
hmmmmm, tough options, raptures and left behind....hmmm, I stoped taking drugs years ago so that leaves me rapturing out ...and left behind? I was hoping left and right behind.....hard to get around with one buttock.
 

ewq1938

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Well, yes it is. It's all through Scripture, not just Revelation 20.


Again, Rev 20 has nothing about building the church which isn't a surprise since the church being built took place long before the events of Rev 20. Rev 20 described how some of teh church died (beheadings) and when they are resurrected, after the two beasts and satan are defeated.



Disagree, of course... :)

The millennium of Revelation 20:3 is the current Gospel age,

It clearly is not. The gospel age is not the time after Christ's return, after the resurrection of the just.




at the beginning of which the angel came down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain...
Christ came, 2000+ years ago

Jesus is not an angel.




...and He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended...
prevented him from preventing the spread of the Gospel

Yet before that happened the gospel was not stopped by satan proving this imprisonment is unrelated to the gospel. Also nevermind the timeframe of Rev 20 is post-second coming.




...and those who have not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands...
those who have not worshiped creation but the Creator, as Paul says in Romans 1

Just ignore the MOB part huh?


...came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
individuals who are made alive together with Christ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus as Paul says in Ephesians 2... caused to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ as Peter says in 1 Peter 1
...This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection!


Taht isn't teh first resurrection. That's being born again. Rev 20 starts with born again people having been killed in the GT in a certain way, being resurrected in the resurrection of the dead in Christ becoming physical and immortal beings ruling over people that Amill claims don't even exist.
 

No Pre-TB

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Satan is bound and sealed, meaning that his power to influence the nations is suppressed, which is exactly the distinction John makes in Revelation 20.
There is nothing you have shown me that proves Satan is sealed, locked away, bound and in chains.

1 Peter states after Christ died and rose,

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

How does he walk around seeking people to devour while you claim he is chained, bound, locked away in prisoned? The opposite of that is pardoned, freed and walketh around which we find here.

Paul then councils us to resist the devil in Ephesians 6

Satan currently divides the church. He still seduces the church with heresies and things of the world as well as oppressing our people. If you'd like, I can easily supply you with newspaper clippings detailing abuses all over the world on our people that Satan feely does whether in China, African nations, Russia, the Middle East etc..

Till he is sealed, his removal will not happen till after the future 4th beast comes that Christ will destroy by his 2nd advent where the beast of the sea and the beast of the earth are thrown into the lake of fire. It is not till after 1k years that Satan is thrown in. Why? Because during those 1k years that the beast of the sea and earth are in the lake of fire, Christ is reigning and Satan is sealed.

Rev 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


They are sent to the lake of fire when Christ appears at the 2nd advent. Satan is not.

Rev 20:7
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

What 1k years? The timeframe Christ was reigning in after the beast of the sea and earth are in the lake of fire and Satan was sealed.

Rev 20:10
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Satan does not join the beast of the earth and sea in the lake of fire till after the 1k years reign. Since the beast of the earth and sea are future and their coming is removed by Christ 2nd advent, which is also future, Satan cannot be sealed if a future beast hasn't happened yet. It is a Biblical impossibility.

Paul said in 2 Cor 2,
Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

And I don't doubt this is one of his devices. Satan tries to scheme us all. He walks freely as Peter declares. He still gathers the nations to battle as we have seen throughout history and Christ testified in Matthew 24 that nation shall battle nation and kingdom versus kingdom but this is not the end. If Satan didn't roam freely, I don't think we would have the metaphor of putting on the whole armor of God. The funny thing about armor, it's for protection of something that is not bound, chained or locked up. It's defensive suit for something always attacking and is needed to preserve one's life.

Perhaps that is why Paul said to the Corinthians,

The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Even after Christ death and resurrection, the god of this age still blinds people almost 2k years later after this was written. He constantly works, schemes, roams, deceives, influences people and nations. If this is not enough, I will present the rest with 1 of his 3 arguments- I will post only 1 because of 1k word count limit from the Honorable Joseph Mede. It is a long read if you are even interested, but valuable arguments, some which Ive already touched on.

Argument 1. -- Under the first six seals the dragon, or Satan, was free and at large, and also under the first six trumpets of the seventh seal. It follows, therefore, that the 1000 years for which Satan is bound, are brought within the seventh trumpet. That Satan or the dragon was not bound while the first six seals were yet running their course, is plain from this circumstance, that in all that interval, as a red dragon with his seven heads and crowns, he was contending with Michael about the offspring of the woman, as was just now demonstrated. But neither did this take place under the first six trumpets of the following seal; for this is the period of the woman in the wilderness, and of the domination of the ten-horned beast, as appears from Synch. I. of this Part. In truth, while the woman was living in the wilderness, it was very unlikely that the dragon could. be considered as bound, who, when free and precipitated from heaven, in the first place attempted to overwhelm her with a flood of waters which he cast out of his mouth, as she was preparing to depart; and afterwards, when this attempt did not succeed according to his intention, (the earth having absorbed the flood, and the woman having withdrawn into the wilderness,) inflamed with wrath and fury, he went to make war with the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Are these proofs of Satan's being bound? But let us see likewise (what is said of him) respecting the beast,and hear how the dragon was bound under his reign: Namely, the dragon gave him his power and his throne, and great authority, and all the world wondered after the beast, and worshipped the dragon which gave power to the beast. But could Satan perform all these acts while he was in prison Certainly in one shut up and sealed it was not possible. But that there may be no room for subterfuge, and that it may clearly appear how far the dragon was still free, and at liberty to perform such deeds, from those into whose custody he is said to be committed, in order to be restrained, behold his other pupil, the false prophet, the inseparable companion of the ten-horned beast, and the minister of the bestial power, of whom you have it written expressly, that he should perform great wonders, and deceive the inhabitants of the earth by the miracles which it was given him to perform. Now, who can readily believe that while these beasts were in possession of authority, the dragon, or Satan, was cast into the abyss, and a seal put upon him, that he might not deceive the nations any more? But from the trumpets themselves, (of the intermediate time at least,) there is not wanting an argument of the devil's being free and unbound. For is not that king of the locusts of the fifth trumpet, who is called the angel of the abyss, to whom the Hebrew name of Abaddon is applied, and the Greek of Apollyon, and whom John points out as him who had long since fallen to the earth, that very dragon himself and Satan whom Michael, before the trumpets had begun to sound, had cast down from heaven to earth? For in the whole Apocalypse, I do not remember to have read of any other besides him who fell to the earth, nor do I know any one else to whom those titles of the angel of the abyss and Abaddon could apply. However that may be, Satan was certainly not bound at that time; the bottomless pit (as it is there called) was not closed upon him and sealed, but open to that degree, that the smoke arose out of it, like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and air were darkened by the smoke: And lastly, the liberty of the dragon, or Satan, to deceive the nations, must have continued to the very ruin of the beast, and was therefore entirely coeval with the six first trumpets, which I think it impossible for any one to doubt, who has sufficiently attended to what is said to be done after the effusion of the sixth phial, that when the seventh, which is the last phial, is just about to be poured out, and therefore the last day of the beast was just at hand -- "Out of the mouth of the dragon and his vicars, the beast, and the false prophet, three unclean spirits of demons working miracles go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."

So the thousand years of Satan's bondage, in order that he might no longer deceive the nations, cannot be placed under the first six seals, nor under the first six trumpets. They must consequently be referred to the seventh trumpet.
 

No Pre-TB

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Danie 9 by itself gives no conclusive declaration as to who the Prince of the People who destroy Jerusalem is. Other than history proving He would be some sort of Roman ruler, that is all Daniel 9 tells us. to say it is Jesus is to twist Scripture beyond recognition.

But when you look at the whole counsel of Scripture concerning this 70th week and when it begins (when the this ruler makes a 7 year covenant with Israel) we can draw conclusions:

1. No ruler has yet to make a 7 year covenant.
2. Jesus warned of a future abomination of desolation, so it cannot be Antiochus IV HYstapes.
3. We know this ruler in the mid-point will cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease.
4. We know the man of sin , enters the temple and declares himself god.
5. Israel flees for its existence when the antichrist arises into the desert where God cares for the nation.
6. We know from Scripture that the AC declares genocide against Israel.

So drawing from all these facts, we conclude that the ruler is the AC.
You are focusing on one interpretation and ignoring the other. Now, perhaps you had already looked into it, I don't know. But if not, we should always look at possibilities and rule them out using scripture.

1. Christ, a prince, made a covenant with many by his blood. He was the only prince mentioned in the prophecy.
2. The temple was desolate and unclean because of the Pharisees. They had polluted it.
3. Sacrifice and oblation did cease with the Mosaic ceremonial laws being finished with Christ
4. The man of sin - Look at the literal standard version.

Who is opposing and is raising himself up above all called god or worshiped, so as for him to have sat down in the temple of God, proclaiming that he is God.

It doesn't mean he will literally sit. It means because of his opposition to God and his pride, he raises himself up above all, even God so as to seat himself as God in His temple. The act describes the symbolic meaning. Here is the KJV:

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God

5. I'm not sure what scripture you are referencing here.
6. The man of sin will make war against those that do the commandments of God and have faith in Christ Jesus. Today, we call them Christians because they must have faith in Christ. Also, The Israel of God is the olive tree that we, as a wild olive tree were grafted into.

I realize you believe what you do. As I stated earlier, many others also believe that. And many others do not for very good reasons, some which I mentioned. You mentioned history. Yes, there was a prince who came against Jerusalem to destroy it. One was Roman and the other was God's son. They both came against Jerusalem; they both destroyed it. Only 1 made a covenant with many and only 1 had sacrifice and oblation to cease because of what He had done. And only 1 said you had 70 concurrent weeks to finish it. I completely understand why you believe what you did. I respect that. I did the same for a long time. I have changed because I had to prove a gap was said and the things I mentioned. Because I find no gap anywhere in the weeks (neither do any commentaries I've read as a second resource), it wasn't alluded to having happened nor was it preached by anyone after Christ - it would have been to one of the churches, all should be fulfilled in Christ.
 

PinSeeker

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Not only spiritually dead. Also physically dead.
Spiritually dead in their sin, at enmity with God, but they did not die physically. That's... kinda why we're all here having this discussion, Timtofly.

What do you think the word mortal means?
LOL!

Dead corruptible flesh was given to Adam.
A sinful nature, yes. And we all inherit that from birth. We are in need being justified and redeemed, which requires us being born again of the Spirit. This is Christianity 101.

God took away His permanent incorruptible physical body.
No, he cursed him to walk in his "corrupted" physical body ~ in toil ~ all the days of his mortal life. Adam did not become... a ghost... LOL!

We don't become immortals, because that is pagan fantasy.
Not in this mortal life, no. LOL! "Pagan fantasy"... I would rather call it unhinged from reality, but okay... :)

As sons of God we will have permanent incorruptible physical bodies.
Agreed. When Jesus comes back, our spirits will be reunited with our physical bodies, and we ~ those of us born again of the Spirit ~ will have eternal life in full. Absolutely.

In Adam we only have temporal corruptible dead physical bodies. We are the living dead.
If you are not born again of the Spirit, yes.

Those in the grave are just the dead. Nothing changes, just the old body returns to dust. God does not change the dust.
This is the first death, which comes to us all. Physical death. Yes.

We put on God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Then we put on the spirit. Only after the soul puts on both body and spirit will we be restored to God's image. Right now we are only in Adam's dead image.
All human beings are made in the image of God (all three Persons). This image is corrupted from birth ~ dead in sin ~ because of the sin Adam, our federal head, in Eden... we have been bequeathed the sin nature through Eve, who is the mother of all the living. So I... sort of... agree with you here, it's just a funny way to put it. :)

's sin
Do you see the difference between life and death?
Well, yes, but I'm not sure what to make of your, um... thinking (I guess)... here, Timtofly, except that it seems quite hellenistic. I don't mean to offend, but... ugh. Sorry.

Grace and peace to you.