Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?

[CadyandZoe]

Thanks for sharing. I ALWAYS appreciate personal testimonies.

At the end of the day, Christianity is about a RELATIONSHIP, not about religion.

Your opening post was brilliant.
In your view, what IS the gift exactly?
Wouldn't most Christians agree, the gift is eternal life?
What are the implications of that gift?

What do we have now; what do we receive later?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, God desires that all be saved. And we should pray for all to be saved as Paul says in his first epistle to Timothy.

But he has other desires also. And at times he chooses to forgo one desire for a greater desire. Paul the apostle, in Romans 9, helps us understand. Some are created to be the subjects of his wrath while others are created to be the subjects of his mercy in order to demonstrate the glory of his grace. He tells us that they "were prepared beforehand for glory." Romans 9:23

Have you ever tried to read Romans 9 - 11 from a different context and perspective. the perspective of Paul answering the Israel question? I led a home church group last night and discussed Romans 9 - 11 from the perspective of the end of chapter 8, where God says of his elect that they are secure in him, and nothing can separate them, and answers the question. Did the word of God take no affect thhrough Israel? IE did God make a mistake choosing them?

Because when you use this context. Romans 9 - 11 flows.. I was actually able to tell a story and lead the teaching of three divisive, chapters that people make more complex than they really are in 45 minutes..

 

[mailmandan]

Titus said:
Dan you are using a strawman by telling the same lie about me over and over.

What straw man? What lie? You clearly teach that we are saved by faith (your version of faith) + works. I often hear those who attend the church of Christ say that we are saved by faith "conjoined" with works and I also hear Roman Catholics say we are saved by faith "infused" with works. Difference in style, but same in substance - "works based" false gospel.

Anyone can read what I teach regarding works and how they are involved in salvation.

Anyone can read that you teach salvation by faith and works in contradiction to God's Word. (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1-2; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

My position has never been we can earn or merit our salvation.

You simply deny that salvation by works is earning or meriting our salvation. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways.

The works the Bible teaches in James chapter 2 are works of obedience to Gods gospel.

The works the Bible teaches in James chapter 2 are works of obedience which "follow" saving faith in Christ. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Works are the fruit of salvation but not the root of it. You just can't seem to grasp that. Did Paul say we are saved by grace through faith + works of obedience in Ephesians 2:8,9? Did Paul say that we are justified by faith + works of obedience in Romans 5:1? Who should I believe? Paul or you? The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) Nothing there about salvation by works of obedience which "follow" believing the gospel.

I teach faith that saves is faith that obeys.

You teach salvation by faith + obedience/works. So do Roman Catholics and also Mormons.

Since you know good and well I do not believe in meriting salvation you are the strawman Dan.

If salvation was based on works (even if it were only in part) "in addition" to faith, then we would be meriting salvation (even if it only was in part). You just can't seem to figure that out. There is no such thing as merit-less works salvation. It's not a strawman on my part. It's an oxymoron on your part. You can't have it both ways.

Strawman argument: informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

Your argument culminates in salvation by faith + works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. You clearly teach salvation by faith + works, just as Roman Catholics teach salvation by faith + works (difference in style, but same in substance - "works based" false gospel) no matter how much you try and deny it.

St SteVen said what faith only salvation is: A salvation where one only believes but has no good works no obedience to Gods
commandments in His gospel to be saved or to stay saved.

Regardless of what he said, I don't teach salvation by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14) That is what James means by "faith only" that you falsely accuse me of teaching. This is not to be confused with salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) You don't understand the difference and may never. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Obedience to God's commandments (yet not flawless obedience 100% of the time to ALL of God's commandments) is the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, yet not the essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we obtain and/or maintain salvation. None of us have flawlessly obeyed ALL of God's commandments 100% of the time (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10) and God's gospel is not salvation by obedience to ALL of His commandments. That is salvation by works. Only Jesus Christ would qualify under that gospel. (Hebrews 4:15) You still don't seem to know exactly what the gospel IS and also what it means to BELIEVE the gospel. To be saved and to stay saved is based on faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9; 1 Peter 1:9)

That is salvation by faith alone. I never used a strawman argument.

That is salvation by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14) Not to be confused with salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Learn the difference.

Here it is said right from the horses mouth,

I'm not the horse.

Faith alone salvation is salvation through belief only and disobedience, refusal to work Gods commandments!

According to what James refers to as "faith only" it is, but not according to what Paul refers to as faith in Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) In Paul's case, alone means faith in Christ alone for salvation. We are trusting in Christ alone for salvation and not in works. Also, saving faith in Christ results in producing good works (Ephesians 2:10) so it's not alone in that regard, but it's still faith in Christ that saves and not works. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him, already saved, demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. (This does not imply flawless, perfect obedience to ALL of God's commandments 100% of the time. Only Jesus Christ has done that). 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Just like in James 2:14 - says they have faith but have no works. That would not be genuine faith but a bare profession of faith.

Dan you know you believe you can disobey Gods commandments and be saved if you only believe.

I know that none of us have flawlessly obeyed ALL of God's commandments 100% of the time (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10) and I also know that flawless obedience 100% of the time to ALL of God's commandments is not how we are saved. If it were then none of us would be saved. Although those who have come to know Him (John 17:3) and are already saved, "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, that is not how we become or stay saved. We are not saved by works but by believing the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) Now be sure to read (1 Corinthians 1:18-21 and 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) to find out why people don't believe the gospel.

You don't like me exposing your false gospel.

Oh, the irony. I don't teach a false gospel so there is nothing to expose. It's your "works based" false gospel that has been exposed.

This is why you continually lie about me, telling others I teach a meritorious works-based salvation.

It's not a lie that you teach salvation by faith + works. You are simply lying to yourself when you say those works are not meritorious towards receiving salvation. It's all sugar-coated double talk and smoke and mirrors.

That is a lie, you know it is a lie, that makes you a liar.

Like I said. It's not a lie and you are simply lying to yourself. You continue to falsely accuse me of teaching salvation by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. (James 2:14) I have stated otherwise numerous times. That makes you a liar.

 

[amigo de christo]

Have you ever tried to read Romans 9 - 11 from a different context and perspective. the perspective of Paul answering the Israel question? I led a home church group last night and discussed Romans 9 - 11 from the perspective of the end of chapter 8, where God says of his elect that they are secure in him, and nothing can separate them, and answers the question. Did the word of God take no affect thhrough Israel? IE did God make a mistake choosing them?

Because when you use this context. Romans 9 - 11 flows.. I was actually able to tell a story and lead the teaching of three divisive, chapters that people make more complex than they really are in 45 minutes..

God indeed did choose him a people . But with many GOD was not pleased . FAITH .
The same has always applied . The DESIRE of GOD is that none would perish .
But if they reject JESUS they will .
These universalists posts are so depressing . Think about it .
They do everything to offer up the world a sense of false hope and yet have no hunger and desire
to truly save the world . IF they did they would have preached the one true gospel .
Speaking of looking into the bible , lets examine how the apostels preached and how they
even shook the dust off their feet as a tesimony against those who rejected JESUS .
Today the universalists shake the dust off their feet against true lambs under this testimony of a false hope that will have
saved none but damned all .
GOD truly does desire good for the world , ITS WHY HE SENT CHRIST .
No way can GOD just omit HIS own righteous judgment of wrath and damnation against the unjust .
SO HE MADE THE WAY OUT IN THE SON .
But again , today these depressing posts that the universalists , inclusvisits bring , do nothing
to point to the dire need to believe on Christ . They just offer up nothing but depression and false hope that wont save .
As for the lambs , WE IS STICKING to the original GOSPEL of the GLORIOUS LORD . YEP . Now raise those
hands and let all that breathes and still has breath , POINT TO CHRIST JESUS .

 

[amigo de christo]

What straw man? What lie? You clearly teach that we are saved by faith (your version of faith) + works. I often hear those who attend the church of Christ say that we are saved by faith "conjoined" with works and I also hear Roman Catholics say we are saved by faith "infused" with works. Difference in style, but same in substance - "works based" false gospel.


Anyone can read that you teach salvation by faith and works in contradiction to God's Word. (Romans 4:2-6; 5:1-2; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)


You simply deny that salvation by works is earning or meriting our salvation. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways.


The works the Bible teaches in James chapter 2 are works of obedience which "follow" saving faith in Christ. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Works are the fruit of salvation but not the root of it. You just can't seem to grasp that. Did Paul say we are saved by grace through faith + works of obedience in Ephesians 2:8,9? Did Paul say that we are justified by faith + works of obedience in Romans 5:1? Who should I believe? Paul or you? The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) Nothing there about salvation by works of obedience which "follow" believing the gospel.


You teach salvation by faith + obedience/works. So do Roman Catholics and also Mormons.


If salvation was based on works (even if it were only in part) in addition to faith, then we would be meriting salvation (even if it only was in part). You just can't seem to figure that out. There is no such thing as merit-less works salvation. It's not a strawman on my part. It's an oxymoron on your part. You can't have it both ways.


Your argument culminates in salvation by faith + works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. You clearly teach salvation by faith + works, just as Roman Catholics teach salvation by faith + works (difference in style, but same in substance - "works based" false gospel) no matter how much you try and deny it.


Regardless of what he said, I don't teach salvation by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14) That is what James means by "faith only" that you falsely accuse me of teaching. This is not to be confused with salvation through faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) You don't understand the difference and may never. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Obedience to God's commandments (yet not flawless obedience 100% of the time to ALL of God's commandments) is the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, yet not the essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we obtain and/or maintain salvation. None of us have flawlessly obeyed ALL of God's commandments 100% of the time (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10) and God's gospel is not salvation by obedience to ALL of His commandments. That is salvation by works. Only Jesus Christ would qualify under that gospel. (Hebrews 4:15) You still don't seem to know exactly what the gospel IS and also what it means to BELIEVE the gospel. To be saved and to stay saved is based on faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9; 1 Peter 1:9)


That is salvation by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14) Not to be confused with salvation through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)


I'm not the horse.


According to what James refers to as "faith only" it is, but not according to what Paul refers to as faith in Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) In Paul's case, alone means faith in Christ alone for salvation. We are trusting in Christ alone for salvation and not in works. Also, saving faith in Christ results in producing good works (Ephesians 2:10) so it's not alone in that regard, but it's still faith in Christ that saves and not works. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him, already saved, demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. (This does not imply flawless, perfect obedience to ALL of God's commandments 100% of the time. Only Jesus Christ has done that). 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Just like in James 2:14 - says they have faith but have no works. That would not be genuine faith but a bare profession of faith.


I know that none of us have flawlessly obeyed ALL of God's commandments 100% of the time (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10) and I also know that flawless obedience 100% of the time to ALL of God's commandments is not how we are saved. If it were then none of us would be saved. Although those who have come to know Him (John 17:3) and are already saved, "keep" (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, that is not how we become or stay saved. We are not saved by works but by believing the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16) Now be sure to read (1 Corinthians 1:18-21 and 2 Corinthians 4:3,4) to find out why people don't believe the gospel.


Oh, the irony. I don't teach a false gospel so there is nothing to expose. It's your "works based" false gospel that has been exposed.


It's not a lie that you teach salvation by faith + works. You are simply lying to yourself when you say those works are not meritorious towards receiving salvation. It's all sugar-coated double talk and smoke and mirrors.


Like I said. It's not a lie and you are simply lying to yourself. You continue to falsely accuse me of teaching salvation by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. (James 2:14) I have stated otherwise numerous times. That makes you a liar.

Since Faith is a necessity . Allow me to remind us of what TRUE FAITH entails .
GOD SAID , ABRAHAM BELIEVED what GOD SAID , ABRAHAM OBEYED what GOD said .
WELL GOD GAVE TESTIMONY OF HIS OWN SON .
Lambs BELIEVE the TESTIMONY , lambs hear and do the things JESUS taught . Lambs hear , lambs believe and do .
Its just that simple . Dead faith , well it migth have heard but it dont do .
THE WORD IS , BELIEVE YE ON CHRIST JESUS .
IF JESUS said , lambs believe , lambs do .
An example . IF JESUS said those who hear and believe not will be damned . I GOT NEWS , THEY BELIEVE THIS .
IF JESUS said HE IS THE ONLY WAY TO GOD , i got news LAMBS BELIEVE THAT .
So my question today is , WHY on earth do so many try and omit things HE said , twist them ,
CAUSE THIS DID NOT ABRAHAM . GOD SAID , ABRHAM BELIEVED , ABRAHAM OBEYED .
Yet WHEN JESUS SPOKE many DID NOT BELIEVE and did NOT DO . Exactly .
ITS DIRE IMPORTANT folks cling to HIS WORDS , THAT GOSPEL and heed no other false path or mindset .
THOSE Who twist the things do as one once did long , long ago .
HAS GOD REALLY SAID ...................................NAY NAY ......................................THAT BE THE SEREPENT .
GOD had TOLD ADAM . DO NOT EAT OF THAT TREE in the MIDST of the garden
cause in the day YOU DO , YE WILL SURELY DIE .
Satan says OH YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE .
NOW he does it all again concering the TREE OF LIFE .
HAS CHRIST really said YE MUST BELIEVE IN HIM to have eternal life
and that all who do deny HIM will perish .
NAY nay sayeth the serpent Those who deny him will not surely perish ....................
YEAH NOW WE KNOW WHO IS BEHIND THIS INCLUSIVIST UNIVERSALISTS SAVE NONE LIE .

 

[amigo de christo]

So , WHO WE GONNA BELIEVE . satan and his men , OR GOD and HIS CHRIST .
JESUS said go and preach the gospel those who beleive and are baptized shall be saved
those who believe not WILL BE DAMNED .
OR the serpent , NAY , nay sayeth the serpent , YE shall not surely be damned or perish .
Yeah . WHO are we gonna trust and beleive in . MEN WHO TWIST STUFF
or WHAT JESUS HIMSELF said .
My advice remains . Let us get well fed in those bibles , believing ER WORD OFTHE LORD and testing all spirits
against THOSE WORDS of TRUTH .

 

[amigo de christo]

DID CHRIST really speak of a place after death where one will be tormented .
NAY nay sayeth the serpent , no such place exists .
NOW WHO WE GONNA BELIEVE JESUS or men gone wrong under the influence of the liar .
My advice is , SIMPLY let us learn the bible .
CAUSE JESUS SAID , ALL WHO COME TO ME i shall in no wise cast out .
THEY have eternal life and no man can pluck them out of my Hand .
JESUS told even the jews who would not come to HIM , believe on HIM .
Exactly what would occur to those on the day of judgement . It will be worse for you than even for Sodom .
Yet today the serpent whispers , nay God is love , this will never occur to anyone .
Again who we gonna beleive , GOD , HIS CHRIST or the twister of scrips , the serpent .
As for the lambs , WELL ITS JESUS WE GONNA BELEIVE and not add too nor take from those words .
lambs preach the LOVE OF GOD
the serpent preaches his version of love that will never lead one soul to GOD . Never forget that .

 

[St. SteVen]

Your opening post was brilliant.

Thanks.
I've been trying to launch thought-provoking topics for all to discuss.
I find myself at a place where I am questioning things.
Trying to sort through what we were raised with religiously.

In your view, what IS the gift exactly?
Wouldn't most Christians agree, the gift is eternal life?

Yes, biblically speaking, the free gift is eternal life. Meaning: we can't earn it.

I think the problem arises when we lead with that for evangelism.
Jesus said to count the cost, pick up the cross daily and follow.
Certainly THAT'S NOT FREE !!!!!

I think that if we say "gift" we can't redefine what that means to fit the gift of God.
If the alternative is to be incinerated, it's not really a gift, it's extortion.

What are the implications of that gift?

Interesting question.
If there are "implications" (strings attached) it's no longer a gift.
Not a FREE gift anyway. What does "free" mean?

What do we have now; what do we receive later?

That's a GREAT question.
I saw a poll on another forum that asked the question:
"If there was no afterlife, would you still follow Jesus?"

I was shocked at the poll results and following discussion.
The vast majority of Christian respondents gave a resounding, "No!"

Back to your question...
Most don't see any VALUE in what we have now BEFORE the afterlife.
And it would not be worthwhile to them without the afterlife to follow.

A relationship with God in the here and now is a treasure to hold.
And that will continue into the afterlife as a face-to-face relationship.

I'm not sure if many Christians will even be able to identify God when they
get to heaven, since they don't really recognize him now.

Too many worship a god made of paper and ink with a cow hide cover. Moo.
If they actually met God, they would quote their book against him.

"Your book says all those bad people are supposed to burn forever. why are you
showing mercy to them? I thought 'love your enemies' only applied to us."

 

[Titus]

What straw man? What lie? You clearly teach that we are saved by faith (your version of faith) + works.

You have been taught faith is absent of obedience to Jesus 'new testament gospel commandments.

Faith alone meaning apart from obedience IS NOT FAITH.
Dan your Faith is not faith it is belief only and disobedience.

To show the irrational idea of your religion that belief alone apart from obeying Gods commandments contradicts Biblical faith, just read
1John 3:23-24,
Dan, you cannot have saving faith that disobeys Gods commandment to believe in Him!!!!
Your idea of faith makes no sense when the Bible teaches faith is a commandment that must be OBEYED.
1John 3:23-24,
- And this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He gave us commandment.


Obeying Gods commandments is a work of obedience.
This is why faith according to Jesus Christ is a work.
You can only remove works from salvation if you remove faith!!!!
Dan, your faith alone apart from ALL works does not exist.
It is a fictional idea from the minds of confused men.

John 6:28-29,
- Then they said to Jesus what shall we do that we might work the works of God
- Jesus answered This is the work of God that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

Faith without obedience is a dead faith.
James 2:26,
-but wilt thou know O foolish man that faith without works(obedience) is dead
- For as the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead also

Dan you are believing you can be saved with a disobedient dead faith.

Agree.
Even to those who refuse to work have righteousness imputed through faith(disobedient belief only)

Dan the devil taught the same lie. It was how mankind was first led to believe they could live forever with God yet disobey God,
Genesis 3:3-4,
- but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it(command must be obeyed) neither shall ye touch it, lest you   die.(disobedience is a dead faith, they believed in God but they disobeyed God, thus their faith was dead)
- And the serpent said unto the women, Ye shall NOT surely  die(the devils lie that you can believe in God and disobey Him and not die)

Faith alone religion is a doctrine from the devil.
It's the oldest deception satan used and still uses to decieve millions today!
1Timothy 4:1,
- Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that in latter times some shall depart from the faith(gospel of Jesus)
giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.

Dan your religion is a faith that has no love!
Dan, you are deceived into believing a loveless faith saved you!
John 14:21,
- He that hath My commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me; and he that loveth Me shall be loved by My Father and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him

Dan you are deceived into believing that a dead loveless faith can save you!
Your loveless belief apart from obedience will only get you cursed!
1Corinthians 16:22,
- If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ let him be accursed, O Lord come

Agree.
Even to those who refuse to work(obey) have righteousness imputed through faith

No obedience to Gods commandments no love for God,
1John 2:5,4
- but whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him, By this we know we are IN Him

.
Even to those who refuse to work have righteousness imputed through faith

- He who says I know Him and does not obey His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him

A dead loveless disobedient faith never saved anyone. Faith alone and refusal to work the commandments of God is the doctrine of satan.

John 8:44,
- ...because there is no truth in him, when he speaks a lie he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You have been taught faith is absent of obedience to Jesus 'new testament gospel commandments.

Faith alone meaning apart from obedience IS NOT FAITH.
Dan your Faith is not faith it is belief only and disobedience.

To show the irrational idea of your religion that belief alone apart from obeying Gods commandments contradicts Biblical faith, just read
1John 3:23-24,
Dan, you cannot have saving faith that disobeys Gods commandment to believe in Him!!!!
Your idea of faith makes no sense when the Bible teaches faith is a commandment that must be OBEYED.
1John 3:23-24,
- And this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He gave us commandment.


Obeying Gods commandments is a work of obedience.
This is why faith according to Jesus Christ is a work.
You can only remove works from salvation if you remove faith!!!!
Dan, your faith alone apart from ALL works does not exist.
It is a fictional idea from the minds of confused men.

John 6:28-29,
- Then they said to Jesus what shall we do that we might work the works of God
- Jesus answered This is the work of God that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

Faith without obedience is a dead faith.
James 2:26,
-but wilt thou know O foolish man that faith without works(obedience) is dead
- For as the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead also

Dan you are believing you can be saved with a disobedient dead faith.

Dan the devil taught the same lie. It was how mankind was first led to believe they could live forever with God yet disobey God,
Genesis 3:3-4,
- but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it(command must be obeyed) neither shall ye touch it, lest you   die.(disobedience is a dead faith, they believed in God but they disobeyed God, thus their faith was dead)
- And the serpent said unto the women, Ye shall NOT surely  die(the devils lie that you can believe in God and disobey Him and not die)

Faith alone religion is a doctrine from the devil.
It's the oldest deception satan used and still uses to decieve millions today!
1Timothy 4:1,
- Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that in latter times some shall depart from the faith(gospel of Jesus)
giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.

Dan your religion is a faith that has no love!
Dan, you are deceived into believing a loveless faith saved you!
John 14:21,
- He that hath My commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me; and he that loveth Me shall be loved by My Father and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him

Dan you are deceived into believing that a dead loveless faith can save you!
Your loveless belief apart from obedience will only get you cursed!
1Corinthians 16:22,
- If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ let him be accursed, O Lord come


No obedience to Gods commandments no love for God,
1John 2:5,4
- but whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him, By this we know we are IN Him

- He who says I know Him and does not obey His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him

A dead loveless disobedient faith never saved anyone. Faith alone and refusal to work the commandments of God is the doctrine of satan.

John 8:44,
- ...because there is no truth in him, when he speaks a lie he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it

Works salvation through and through..

you can't scream at Dan and say he is lieing about you, and then do the very thing he accuses you of doing

 

[Titus]

Works salvation through and through..

you can't scream at Dan and say he is lieing about you, and then do the very thing he accuses you of doing

Faith itself is a work according to Jesus, John 6:28-29
You can deny this, You can tell Jesus He was wrong in judgement.

Jesus taught works of obedience in His gospel.
That is true saving faith.
Biblical faith that saves has belief that acts by doing, obeying the works of God.

You can lie that I'm teaching meritorious works.
But Jesus includes works to be saved like faith,
I believe in Jesus' gospel not your strawman of works of merit salvation that you desperately try to pin on me

John 8:44

Every time you deny works are in salvation you deny what Jesus taught, that faith is a work of God that we do, John 6:28-29 ; John 14:12,
- Verily, verily I say unto you, he that believeth(faith is a work) on me, the works that I do shall he do also and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto My Father

Faith is a work of God that we work as Jesus' gospel commands us 1John 3:23-24.

Eternally Grateful, you hold to Baptist theology over the word of God.
Stop believing that faith is not a work, just believe what the Scriptures say!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I agree.
But if the answer is NOT nothing, is it really a gift?

The biblical answer is 'Yes." Assuming "gift" was the best word to use in translation.
But based on what we know about gifts, it is not being presented as free if there are requirements. Right?
Even you imply that there are strings attached, but definitely want to call it gift.

I’m not implying there are strings attached. Or that is not what I mean to imply. I’ve been thinking about your comment since you posted it. Because I really don’t have an answer. I probably never should have responded to this thread. I read of a false gift(warning in the word). If I understand that, a false gift is a gift without the Spirit of God. I don’t think God is the giver of a false gift. You may think I have a problem with “All men”. I don’t. But I’m only thinking of when I went to a Bible study and every one was saying the gift cost nothing. I’m not sure that is true in who is the giver of a gift. Whether it is a gift given under false pretenses from the one giving the gift to the one accepting the false gift. An example I think of is the Pharisees saying if they would put money in the collections to benefit the Pharisees, then God would bless them. Like today also, how if you send money to our cause, God will bless you back twice or more the amount. So I responded to your OP because you asked what is the nature of a Gift. If someone whose nature is to hurt and they offer me a gift, I’m not going to receive the gift because of the nature of the giver. I’m not going open it, but instead throw it away based off the nature of the giver. YET it blows my mind that even while writing that I think of Paul. Where the Lord sent him and Paul saying they all knew him as one who caused them hurt, and how they wouldn’t receive the message of Grace from him, knowing his (Saul’s)nature to do them harm. (That is crazy to me.) Yet Paul who did harm to them, had a Gift to give unto them from the Lord. Being told to go. Like “I hope to come soon and impart unto you a gift that you may be established.”

Your post stood out because I have never considered the Nature of the Gift of God…the Nature of the Gift being the Nature of the Holy Spirit. All the fruit of the Spirit of God. Because without the Nature of the Holy Spirit …then is it a false gift being without the Spirit of God. I’m not implying there are strings attached, but only considering the Nature of the Giver to better (Imo) understand the nature of the Gift. For me it raises questions about speaking against the Holy Spirit, is speaking against the Gift given? (I definitely don’t want to do that.)
Matthew 12:31-33 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men. [32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. [33] Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

You asked what is the nature of the gift?
It is free.
I’m not saying there are strings attached but Only considering more of the Nature of the Gift which Gift is the Holy Spirit.
The Gift is from above.
The Gift is first pure.
The Gift is gentle.
The Gift is easy to be intreated.
The Gift is full of mercy and good fruits.
The Gift of without partiality.
The Gift is without hypocrisy.
The Gift is of righteousness ( the Righteousness of God)sown in peace of them that make peace.
The Gift, which is the Holy Spirit, is the nature of God which loves beyond those who love Him, loving also those who do not love Him. The nature of the Gift is not only saluting those who salute the Gift, but those who spit, reject and curse the Gift…He blesses. When they gave Him bitter water of gall to drink when He thirst…He gave Living water to those who thirst. The Gift of the Holy Spirit is perfection in doing more than that which is false, going further and beyond what is impossible with men.
So no I don’t think there are strings attached. But so often I’ve struggled with a gift given saying it is a free gift…then five seconds later their is a rise of teaching how God is partial, has favoritism on the receivers and promotes small clicks of those in and those out. it makes no sense to me. Is it a free Gift or not? What is the perfection of the Free Gift of the Holy Spirit, where that they may be the children of God?That is what I’m considering from your OP asking what is the Nature of the Gift? If all we focus on is “a gift” …it is not just any gift but The Holy Spirit is the Gift. Why is that the only Nature “the Holy Spirit is free” that is ever talked about? What do we gain from driving home “it is a Free Gift”? What about the rest of the Nature of the Gift of the Holy Spirit? All the fruit of the Gift”? What is the fruit of the Free Gift? Life? The Gift of Life is Free.

Struggle with saying there is no cost because Paul speaks of counting all loss, all dung, …to gain Christ to be found in Christ not having his (Paul’s) own righteousness but the Righteousness of the Gift entrusted unto him. No strings but there are warnings to not abuse the Gift. Seems (Imo) Paul said there is a cost of giving up his own righteousness to gain the Righteousness of God. And the Life I now Live I live in Christ, the Righteousness of (the Gift) (the Holy Spirit)entrusted unto me not for your destruction but for your edification (building up).

Is it wrong to look at the whole nature of the Gift and not only that it is free?

 

[Titus]

Gods gift is grace
Gods grace is not unconditional unless you believe in calvinism, TULIP Unconditional election.

Free gifts absolutely come with conditions yet they are still free gifts.

Example: car dealership giving away a free car,

Only conditions: you must enter the giveaway, give date of birth, country born in, name ,address and phone number,

If you win the free gift you must drive to dealership to get it.

Free gifts do have requirements that must be met.

Jesus' gospel has conditions to recieve His grace,

Faith is one condition
Obeying Gods commandments are also conditions that must be met.

One can obey/do the commandments to receive Gods free gift of salvation by His grace and it does not contradict that it is a free gift.

False dichotomy: must be by Grace apart from works vs. Must be works and not of grace

Both are incorrect

Grace, faith and works harmonize perfectly. They do not contradict

 

[amigo de christo]

Works salvation through and through..

you can't scream at Dan and say he is lieing about you, and then do the very thing he accuses you of doing

and yet i notice no one wants to talk about what TRUE FAITH IS .
So allow me the same reminders that i am gonna continue to say .
FAITH .
GOD SAID , ABRAHAM BELIEVED WHAT GOD SAID , ABRAHAM DID WHAT GOD SAID .
THAT IS FAITH .
GOD gave testimony of HIS SON . CHRIST JESUS SPOKE the WORDS OF GOD , AS HE IS THE WORD OF GOD .
THUS FAITH .
Lambs believe WHAT HE SAID , Lambs DO WHAT HE SAID . And lambs dont sit and listen to well educated men
who do as did the serpent and say DID GOD , DID THE CHRIST really say ,
NO NO says the serpent . lambs dont heed that voice . And i be watching many folks
who are heeding the voice of the dark one through overly educated world wise men who do nothing
but try and twist the scrips to fit their own dark understanding . THIS LAMB WILL SIT UNDER NO SUCH ONES EITHER .

 

[amigo de christo]

Gods gift is grace
Gods grace is not unconditional unless you believe in calvinism, TULIP Unconditional election.

Free gifts absolutely come with conditions yet they are still free gifts.

Example: car dealership giving away a free car,

Only conditions: you must enter the giveaway, give date of birth, country born in, name ,address and phone number,

If you win the free gift you must drive to dealership to get it.

Free gifts do have requirements that must be met.

Jesus' gospel has conditions to recieve His grace,

Faith is one condition
Obeying Gods commandments are also conditions that must be met.

One can obey/do the commandments to receive Gods free gift of salvation by His grace and it does not contradict that it is a free gift.

False dichotomy: must be by Grace apart from works vs. Must be works and not of grace

Both are incorrect

Grace, faith and works harmonize perfectly. They do not contradict

For grace teaches us TO DO the things PLEASING TO GOD . not to rather try and twist the words to suit
a doctrine and an agenda that cometh of men of this world . Men of this world
who , through all generations crept in to decieve from within . I tell us all lambs will sit under NO SUCH MEN .
IF JESUS SAID , LAMBS BELEIVE , LAMBS DO . FOR GOD worketh in them that which is WELL PLEASING IN HIS SIGHT .
AND sin and disobediance , AINT WELL PLEASING IN HIS SIGHT .
GOD SAID , ABRAHAM BELEIVED , ABRAHAM OBEYED .
GOD said , eve chose to BELEIVE SATAN rather than GOD , adam chose to heed his wife and not GOD .
THAT was not FAITH in GOD . THEY DID NOT BELIEVE . GOD said ye shall surely perish
the serpent said YE shall surely NOT perish . AND UNBELIEF is what they chose . TO BELIEVE SATAN , NOT GOD .
You wanna know something very sad . I SEE THIS amongst many christains today .
THEY CHOSE TO NOT BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE , they listen to men who TWIST IT and say NAY , nAY
AND THAT IS A MAJOR RED FLAG .

 

[amigo de christo]

Soon enough those not of CHRIST will UNIFY as ONE UNDER THE GREAT LOVE LIE that leadeth to perdition .
And soon enough with one voice one mind and one heart they will do the one thing they have long desired to do .
RID THE EARTH OF ANY REMINDER of the TRUTH that stood in the ways of their dreams , lusts and ambitions .
THEY embrace anti christ and the work of their father they will do .
And as one voice one mind one united religoin and world they will eradicate those who spoke the very truth
which could have saved them . marvel not , the hour cometh and is come
when many within even christendom with all religoins and AI as their king and the prince of the air
WILL UNITE AS ONE And come with vegeance against any and all who conformed not to the lie of a false love .
Those who were in GODS TRUE AGAPE LOVE , WILL be hated as more and more
rush into what they see as love , believe is love , believe to be GOD and CHRIST . BUt it has been the work
of satan , the mystery of inquity , the spirit of anti christ they have loved and embraced .

 

[Titus]

For grace teaches us TO DO the things PLEASING TO GOD . not to rather try and twist the words to suit
a doctrine and an agenda that cometh of men of this world . Men of this world
who , through all generations crept in to decieve from within . I tell us all lambs will sit under NO SUCH MEN .
IF JESUS SAID , LAMBS BELEIVE , LAMBS DO . FOR GOD worketh in them that which is WELL PLEASING IN HIS SIGHT .
AND sin and disobediance , AINT WELL PLEASING IN HIS SIGHT .
GOD SAID , ABRAHAM BELEIVED , ABRAHAM OBEYED .
GOD said , eve chose to BELEIVE SATAN rather than GOD , adam chose to heed his wife and not GOD .
THAT was not FAITH in GOD . THEY DID NOT BELIEVE . GOD said ye shall surely perish
the serpent said YE shall surely NOT perish . AND UNBELIEF is what they chose . TO BELIEVE SATAN , NOT GOD .
You wanna know something very sad . I SEE THIS amongst many christains today .
THEY CHOSE TO NOT BELIEVE THE SCRIPTURE , they listen to men who TWIST IT and say NAY , nAY
AND THAT IS A MAJOR RED FLAG .

Very true.
But I must disagree friend that those who have believed in a false gospel like faith alone salvation are not yet Christians. Very sad!
Paul taught only one gospel that saves, Ephesians 4:5 ; Romans 1:16.

Love you friend.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Have you ever tried to read Romans 9 - 11 from a different context and perspective. the perspective of Paul answering the Israel question? I led a home church group last night and discussed Romans 9 - 11 from the perspective of the end of chapter 8, where God says of his elect that they are secure in him, and nothing can separate them, and answers the question. Did the word of God take no affect thhrough Israel? IE did God make a mistake choosing them?

Because when you use this context. Romans 9 - 11 flows.. I was actually able to tell a story and lead the teaching of three divisive, chapters that people make more complex than they really are in 45 minutes..

I'm uncertain what you mean by a "different perspective." In my view, Paul has finished making his case for Salvation by faith apart from the Law at the end of chapter 8. Chapter 9 begins a new subject.

 

[Titus]

Not one verse anywhere in the NT teaches that failh alone, that is, faith apart from obedience to God, saves...not one verse. For there is no salvation apart from obedience to God's will. Paul wrote "obedience unto righteousness" Rom 6:16 meaning all the disobedient, unrighteous will be lost

 

[amigo de christo]

Very true.
But I must disagree friend that those who have believed in a false gospel like faith alone salvation are not yet Christians. Very sad!
Paul taught only one gospel that saves, Ephesians 4:5 ; Romans 1:16.

Love you friend.

Who on earth said anything of the sort . Certainly not I .
Read again the words i wrote . GOD SAID , ABRHAM BELIEVED , ABRAHAM DID .
Abraham had the true faith OF A DOER of a true BELIEVER . THAT IS TRUE FAITH in GOD .
Anyone can say I BELIEVE IN GOD , MY FAITH IS IN HIS CHRIST . But if one is not a doer
THEIR FAITH PROVES THEM TO BE A LIAR . they have DECIEVED themselves .
FAITH travels NOT ALONE . never has , never will . TIS TRUE WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH.
BUT if our faith produces not good works , IT AINT FAITH . That is my point .
How many folks holler the name of CHRIST JESUS and yet are just like i once was . I TOO could
claim to believe on GOD , on HIS CHRIST , I too claimed faith . I DID NEITHER i was lost and decieved .
Now folks dont like that reminder . BUT ME IS GONNA KEEP ON WITH IT .
Adam nor eve ever once told the dragon , WE DONT BELIEVE IN GOD WE SERVE YOU .
THEY did believe IN GOD , they just didnt BELIEVE WHAT GOD SAID . THUS PROVING DEAD FAITH .
Many can holler i believe in GOD , I BELIEVE IN CHRIST
but hold to all sorts of sins and false doctrines that contradict GOD , HIS CHRIST .
THEY have chosen by heart to BELIEVE THE DEVIL , though by mouth they profess to KNOW GOD .
THEY BELIEVE IN MEN who pervert , omit and twist doctrine , JUST LIKE SATAN DOES .
That is a real bad sign right there . Cause the true agape love that cometh of GOD , would
have encouraged NO SUCH THING IN THEIR HEARTS . Soon enough this man will probably face yet another
digital ghetto or a banishment for life . BUT as you can see , I DONT WORRY ONE BIT about no such thing .
I am gonna continue , continue by grace and continue to continue with the same reminders .