Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?

[St. SteVen]

Familiar words.
"... it is by grace you have been saved... the gift of God..."

What is the nature of a "gift"?
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return. (hopefully, or it isn't free)
- Consequences for refusal would make it extortion.

Here's how it might look in human terms.

Man #1: I have a free gift for you.
Man #2: Thanks, But I'm not interested.
Man #1: Not interested? I said it was free!
Man #2: I'm pretty sure there are some strings attached.
Man #1: Well, of course. But it's FREE!
Man #2: Not really, if there are strings attached.
Man #1: This is my final offer. Better take it now, or else!
Man #2: Uh... or else what?
Man #1: You will be incinerated!
Man #2: Seriously? What kind of free gift is that?

Since salvation is a gift, it should meet the criteria of a gift.
- It's free.
- You can't earn it.
- Nothing is expected in return.

If salvation fails to meet this criteria, it isn't a gift.

Romans 4:4-5 NIV
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly,
their faith is credited as righteousness.

 

[mailmandan]

Salvation is a free gift, but the gift of God still must be received through faith. (Ephesians 2:8,9) At Christmas time if someone buys you a gift and freely offers you the gift, you still must accept it. If you refuse to accept the gift then you do not receive the gift. Jesus Christ purchased our salvation with His blood and offers us eternal life as a free gift, but if we do not accept the gift through faith then we do not receive it.

 

[St. SteVen]

Salvation is a free gift, but the gift of God still must be received through faith. (Ephesians 2:8,9) At Christmas time if someone buys you a gift and freely offers you the gift, you still must accept it. If you refuse to accept the gift then you do not receive the gift. Jesus Christ purchased our salvation with His blood and offers us eternal life as a free gift, but if we do not accept the gift through faith then we do not receive it.

Thanks for joining the discussion.
You have clearly stated the standard evangelical position on this. I am familiar.

However, when we also consider the "consequences" for not receiving the gift, we run into difficulty.
Suddenly it is no longer a gift. What went wrong?

I used to say: "Salvation is free; it costs you everything."

A similar question arises about whether it is "free". What do we do when someone "prays the prayer"?
We load them up with all sorts of expectations. Church attendance, Bible study, offerings, service...
Suddenly the gift is no longer free. What went wrong?

Bottom line: Looks like a bait and switch scam.
The way we are doing it, salvation is neither "free", nor "a gift". What went wrong?

 

[mailmandan]

Thanks for joining the discussion.
You have clearly stated the standard evangelical position on this. I am familiar.

However, when we also consider the "consequences" for not receiving the gift, we run into difficulty.
Suddenly it is no longer a gift. What went wrong?

A similar question arises about whether it is "free". What do we do when someone "prays the prayer"?
We load them up with all sorts of expectations. Church attendance, Bible study, offerings, service...
Suddenly the gift is no longer free. What went wrong?

Bottom line: Looks like a bait and switch scam.
The way we are doing it, salvation is neither "free", nor "a gift". What went wrong?

The problem: Romans 3:23 - All have sinned and come short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) The solution: but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. If we had no sin debt that has to be paid then it might look like a bait and switch scam, but we have only two choices. 1. Reject the free gift and suffer condemnation in hell for our sins. 2. Accept the free gift through faith in Jesus Christ and receive eternal life.

 

[St. SteVen]

The problem: Romans 3:23 - All have sinned and come short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23) The solution: but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. If we had no sin debt that has to be paid then it might look like a bait and switch scam, but we have only two choices. 1. Reject the free gift and suffer condemnation in hell for our sins. 2. Accept the free gift through faith in Jesus Christ and receive eternal life.

Again, well stated. But we are left with the same problem.
Salvation is not a free gift if it comes with the worst consequences imaginable for refusal to accept it.

What is the nature of a "gift"?
- It's free. (check)
- You can't earn it. (check)
- Nothing is expected in return. (hopefully, or it isn't free)
- Consequences for refusal would make it extortion. (oops, we have a problem)

 

[St. SteVen]

If we had no sin debt that has to be paid then it might look like a bait and switch scam...

This looks like a good avenue to pursue. Thanks.
It hinges on a free-will choice (which I question), but is more understandable.

It's not a free gift out of nowhere. It is offered to someone in a helpless situation.
To someone that owes more than they could ever possibly repay. A huge debt.

A merciful benefactor steps in to help. Offering to pay the debt for the person in need.
The recipient of the help is under no obligation to repay the benefactor. It's a free gift.

However, if the potential recipient refuses the help (the free gift),
they are still left with the debt to be paid.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Thanks for joining the discussion.
You have clearly stated the standard evangelical position on this. I am familiar.

However, when we also consider the "consequences" for not receiving the gift, we run into difficulty.
Suddenly it is no longer a gift. What went wrong?

I used to say: "Salvation is free; it costs you everything."

A similar question arises about whether it is "free". What do we do when someone "prays the prayer"?
We load them up with all sorts of expectations. Church attendance, Bible study, offerings, service...
Suddenly the gift is no longer free. What went wrong?

Bottom line: Looks like a bait and switch scam.
The way we are doing it, salvation is neither "free", nor "a gift". What went wrong?

I think you are looking at it all wrong

All the world is condemned. We have sinned and we must all pay the debt we all owe God

The gift of God is to save us from this guilt and condemnation. Because we can not pay this debt ourself

If you reject. you do not suffer the consequence of rejecting the gift. You get what we all deserve. you get what we would all get if we were not offered the gift

 

[St. SteVen]

This looks like a good avenue to pursue. Thanks.
It hinges on a free-will choice (which I question), but is more understandable.

It's not a free gift out of nowhere. It is offered to someone in a helpless situation.
To someone that owes more than they could ever possibly repay. A huge debt.

A merciful benefactor steps in to help. Offering to pay the debt for the person in need.
The recipient of the help is under no obligation to repay the benefactor. It's a free gift.

However, if the potential recipient refuses the help (the free gift),
they are still left with the debt to be paid.

However, this situation starts to look a bit sketchy when the recipient of the debt relief discovers something.

The merciful benefactor was sovereign over the situation that caused the insurmountable debt in the first place.
Say what? It turns out that the debt was inherited from previous tenants of the benefactor. Left unpaid.
The previous tenants couldn't pay it either. The ones to cause the debt in the first place.

Then the recipient of the debt relief discovers something more. They are not the only one left responsible.
Literally everyone owes for the debt of their ancestors. Which has since compounded with late fees and such.

The recipient of the debt relief meets others like the one that presented the offer to them from the merciful benefactor.
These recipients have institutionalized the group to offer worship and service to the merciful benefactor.
And has taken up the task of ambassadorship of the message of debt relief.

But, as human instituations go, this one is not without problems. The free gift is not free after all.

 

[St. SteVen]

I think you are looking at it all wrong

All the world is condemned. We have sinned and we must all pay the debt we all owe God

The gift of God is to save us from this guilt and condemnation. Because we can not pay this debt ourself

If you reject. you do not suffer the consequence of rejecting the gift. You get what we all deserve. you get what we would all get if we were not offered the gift

I'm coming to the same conclusion.

It's not a free gift out of nowhere. It is offered to someone in a helpless situation.
To someone that owes more than they could ever possibly repay. A huge debt.

But is it really a free gift?

Still leaves questions about the source of the debt and why we owe, but... getting somewhere with it. Thanks.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm coming to the same conclusion.

It's not a free gift out of nowhere. It is offered to someone in a helpless situation.
To someone that owes more than they could ever possibly repay. A huge debt.

But is it really a free gift?

Still leaves questions about the source of the debt and why we owe, but... getting somewhere with it. Thanks.

Its free. because you can't pay for it

If you could pay for it. it would not be free.

the source of the debt is our sin

the penalty of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life

 

[St. SteVen]

Its free. because you can't pay for it

Some try to earn it, paying with their duty. (attempting to anyway)

If you could pay for it. it would not be free.

Seems some things that can be paid for are received for free.
Like if you bought me a gift. - LOL

the source of the debt is our sin

What is the source of our sin?

the penalty of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life

On that we agree. (I question the eternal aspect, though)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Some try to earn it, paying with their duty. (attempting to anyway)

Yes, they do, and in the end they will fail

Seems somethings that can be paid for are received for free.
Like if you bought me a gift. - LOL

yes, jesus paid with his blood

What is the source of our sin?

selfishness, pride

On that we agree. (I question the eternal aspect, though)

what do you question about it?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
On that we agree. (I question the eternal aspect, though)

what do you question about it?

The translation of the word "eternal" in reference to life. (and punishment)
Fortunately, one "Age" follows another.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

 

[Charlie24]

St. SteVen said:
On that we agree. (I question the eternal aspect, though)

The translation of the word "eternal" in reference to life. (and punishment)
Fortunately, one "Age" follows another.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

If we can't see that God is right, just and fair in all that He does and says, then we have serious problems with God. This is where we begin to question any and everything through our limited knowledge and lose track of who's in charge.

It boils down to the question: do we really trust God? If we can't trust Him, then we can't believe Him, and now you're in Satan's ballpark.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It is not uncommon or unusual that free gifts come with necessary conditions, such as the free gift of salvation which comes with obedience to God being the necesary condition to receiving that free gift. If salvation were completely unconditional then all men universally would be saved without any exceptions. All would be saved universsally with no regard to how they lived nor what they believed.

 

[Charlie24]

It is not uncommon or unusual that free gifts come with necessary conditions, such as the free gift of salvation which comes with obedience to God being the necesary condition to receiving that free gift. If salvation were completely unconditional then all men universally would be saved without any exceptions. All would be saved universsally with no regard to how they lived nor what they believed.

This whole concept is incorrect! The free gift is exemption from Judgment that you don't deserve. It comes only through faith in the shed blood of Christ.

What many seem to think are conditions of salvation are in truth the freewill of born-again believers in action.

At the moment of salvation, God places the Holy Spirit inside us to guide and protect us. We are now a "new man" in Christ, our desires have changed, we want to that which is good, by our own free will.

So let's don't assume there are conditions to salvation other than faith in Christ.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This whole concept is incorrect! The free gift is exemption from Judgment that you don't deserve. It comes only through faith in the shed blood of Christ.

What many seem to think are conditions of salvation are in truth the freewill of born-again believers in action.

At the moment of salvation, God places the Holy Spirit inside us to guide and protect us. We are now a "new man" in Christ, our desires have changed, we want to that which is good, by our own free will.

So let's don't assume there are conditions to salvation other than faith in Christ.

By your last sentence you admit salvation has a condition....faith. NT faith includes obedience to God's will else that faith is dead and cannot save.

 

[Charlie24]

By your last sentence you admit salvation has a condition....faith. NT faith includes obedience to God's will else that faith is dead and cannot save.

You're just giving me proof that you have not gradated into the New Covenant. You're trapped in the Old Covenant, in the Law that binds and kills.

Paul explains the NC in all his letters, as he was specifically chosen by Christ to explain it.

Eph. 2:8-9

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast."

If you continue to ignore this, and not read Paul's letters for yourself to understand, you will not find life in Jesus Christ!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You're just giving me proof that you have not gradated into the New Covenant. You're trapped in the Old Covenant, in the Law that binds and kills.

Paul explains the NC in all his letters, as he was specifically chosen by Christ to explain it.

Eph. 2:8-9

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast."

If you continue to ignore this, and not read Paul's letters for yourself to understand, you will not find life in Jesus Christ!

You posted yourself that faith was a condition. I simply pointed out that obedience to God is part of NT faith meaning salvation is impossible apart from obedience to God's will for disobedience / sin / unrighteousness saves no one.

 

[Charlie24]

You posted yourself that faith was a condition. I simply pointed out that obedience to God is part of NT faith meaning salvation is impossible apart from obedience to God's will for disobedience / sin / unrighteousness saves no one.

There is a condition to salvation, that condition is faith alone in Jesus Christ, period! Let me explain that statement.

The unbeliever, the one who knows not God, has no thought of his sin, it's just a way of life. His conscience bears witness of that sin, but ignored long enough the result is a seared conscience. Now the unbeliever has no remorse, no thought, no awareness of his sin. He is totally lost and undone in this world, with no hope.

When that person hears the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and reacts favorably to it, believing it, instantly that person is baptized into the death of Christ. This is not water baptism, it's being immersed into the body of Christ. This person instantly receives the indwelling Holy Spirit, and is now a new creature in Christ, "behold all things have become new."

Whereas this person had no regard for his sin before believing, now he has made a 180 and sees the wrong in that sin. He can now see that his sin cost the death of our Lord. He now develops a hatred of that sin, he no longer wants to sin, he has been imparted a new nature. This new nature that comes by faith in Christ and now abides in this new creature, will now guard himself from that sin by the power of the Holy Spirit. It was all 100% faith in Christ that has brought this person to this understanding.

Now this person is no longer without hope, he has found the hope of Christ. He now wants to please Christ, honor Christ, and do the things that please Christ of his own free will. God is demanding nothing of this person, but that He believes in Jesus Christ. The rest will be taken care of by Him.

So now under the direction of the Holy Spirit this person sets out to do that which is good, that which is pleasing in the sight of the Lord. Now this person is ripe to bear the fruits of the Holy Spirit, but not of his own doing, but by the preparing of the Holy Spirit who lays out those works for him. Still, this person is doing nothing but believing in Jesus Christ, taking Him at His Word "to fulfill the righteousness of the Law in him."

As this person walks through his life believing and trusting in Christ, the Holy Spirit is at work opening doors, giving direction and laying a path for this believer to follow. Still it's all by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

This person begins to notice that the person he just meet by chance and witnessed the Gospel to him, was not by chance at all. He begins to realize, this was prepared for me, this whole thing was the work of the Holy Spirit preparing my works that I can bear fruit for Christ.

Now this person, by only faith in the finished work of Christ, is on his way to bearing much fruit for Christ, and the eyes of God are continuously following his path in preparation.