A question about the rapture

[rebuilder 454]

No such thing as a 'pre-trib' rapture.

the LORD Jesus said HE is Coming after the tribulation = Matthew ch24

The Great Tribulation begins when the FATHER permits the Antichrist to be revealed = 2 Thess ch2, Matt ch24, 1 John ch2, Revelation

The Tribulation began a long time ago and it will continue to 'heat-up' and grow greater as it is now and continuing.

KEY = JESUS ministry was 3.5 years

Pretrib rapture is easy to debate.
Jesus taught it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

At the rapture believers are caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds but at the return of Jesus jJesus returns with all the raptured believrs and His angles to the mount of Olives and sets His foot there!!

bingo

 

[No Pre-TB]

"No, because the messages to the churches are separate from the heavenly scene. Failure to see a distinction will always result in improper understanding. When you realize Ch.5 is a past event when Christ entered heaven and John witnessing it, everything else will open up. But you don’t, and ignorance is bliss."

What do you base this assertion on?
What significance are you placing on it?

Already answered in my reply to him through various topics on these forums. Start with this simple question.

Step 1: When you win a prize, are you rewarded when you meet the judges to receive it and your name mentioned as the winner or is it 2-4k years later after you won?

After you’ve thought about it, how does each scenario work in the heavenly scene? If Christ won and was waiting there all this time, why didn’t John see him when he viewed the angels, the 24 elders, the 4 living beasts, God on the throne, the crystal sea etc. Where was Jesus?

If Jesus was not waiting, but just appeared as he ascended to Heaven, how does that fit the scene. As a lamb that had been slain.

Some of these things can be explained in scripture. The point is, when questions arise that cannot be explained, there’s a problem with their theory.

Here’s another. In Ch. 4, why are the 7 lamp stands (the 7 churches) the 7 spirits of God yet in Ch. 5 after Jesus enters, the 7 spirits are his through God. That can only happen if there is a new testator demonstrating the mosaic covenant in Ch.4 from Christ in Ch. 5. To John which was a past event. To explain future things, past events are needed to explain why, how, where or what. You cannot explain the seals without explanation of the scroll, who could open it, the prerequisites to opening it, who originally held it etc.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Already answered in my reply to him through various topics on these forums. Start with this simple question.

Step 1: When you win a prize, are you rewarded when you meet the judges to receive it and your name mentioned as the winner or is it 2-4k years later after you won?

After you’ve thought about it, how does each scenario work in the heavenly scene? If Christ won and was waiting there all this time, why didn’t John see him when he viewed the angels, the 24 elders, the 4 living beasts, God on the throne, the crystal sea etc. Where was Jesus?

If Jesus was not waiting, but just appeared as he ascended to Heaven, how does that fit the scene. As a lamb that had been slain.

Some of these things can be explained in scripture. The point is, when questions arise that cannot be explained, there’s a problem with their theory.

Here’s another. In Ch. 4, why are the 7 lamp stands (the 7 churches) the 7 spirits of God yet in Ch. 5 after Jesus enters, the 7 spirits are his through God. That can only happen if there is a new testator demonstrating the mosaic covenant in Ch.4 from Christ in Ch. 5. To John which was a past event. To explain future things, past events are needed to explain why, how, where or what. You cannot explain the seals without explanation of the scroll, who could open it, the prerequisites to opening it, who originally held it etc.

except there is not enough there to support that, nor does the reader get any of that context, as it is conjecture.

You are apparently basing all basis for doctrine on "one coming". however, mat 24 and 25 ,as well as rev 14 declare multiple comings.
I think you need to rethink your position.

 

[No Pre-TB]

except there is not enough there to support that, nor does the reader get any of that context, as it is conjecture.

You are apparently basing all basis for doctrine on "one coming". however, mat 24 and 25 ,as well as rev 14 declare multiple comings.
I think you need to rethink your position.

I gave you 2 examples to start with considering you were not involved in other discussions where scripture was indicated.

Asking a question is never conjecture. Secondly, though I did not mention it but you brought it up, there is only 2 comings in scripture and 1 already happened. Christ is in heaven since he ascended and will remain there till his 2nd Advent. He will not leave and return and leave again. Acts 3:21 He stays there till the restoration of all things. All things arnt restored or at the very least, even removed in order to bring restoration on a Pre-TB timeline.

 

[David in NJ]

Pretrib rapture is easy to debate.
Jesus taught it.

You need archery lessons.

The Master Archer, who is the Holy Spirit, taught me the Way of Truth whereby i can now hit Bullseyes in the Holy Scriptures.

Like this one: "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." - 1 John 2:18

 

[Randy Kluth]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed until 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

In my view, Paul is explicitly teaching Postrib. He is not just saying that Antichrist must be revealed 1st, but he is also saying that the Coming of Christ will be in the context of his destruction of Antichrist. Try as one might, I don't believe there is any way to get around this.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You need archery lessons.

The Master Archer, who is the Holy Spirit, taught me the Way of Truth whereby i can now hit Bullseyes in the Holy Scriptures.

Like this one: "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time." - 1 John 2:18

So true. That is why I am bible first.
I need no teachers, as the new testament pattern is being led by the spirit.
So the bible authenticates the Spirit. We can not go against the bible.
The verses I bring are in no way taught in the postrib doctrine.
We are to change our doctrine should it refute God's word.
"red flags" have to be a part of that equation.
My view of end times changed drastically when I saw the true panoramic picture.
It is the dynamic of the bride and groom.
That is the heart of heaven.
Bride calls out for the groom.
Bride is obscessed with the groom
The groom longs for his bride.
The last words of the bible, the bride calls out for the groom, in unison with the Spirit.

I think you may be a man of God. seems like you are.
my job is to present God's word. We are required to submit to that even if it goes against doctrine.
The bride/ groom dynamic is a game changer

 

[rebuilder 454]

In my view, Paul is explicitly teaching Postrib. He is not just saying that Antichrist must be revealed 1st, but he is also saying that the Coming of Christ will be in the context of his destruction of Antichrist. Try as one might, I don't believe there is any way to get around this.

In the postrib doctrine they have trapped themselves in several impossibilities.
1) they say "only one coming"
That is DIRECTLY against the bible (that alone puts any notion of a postrib rapture to rest.
2) They correctly declare with paul that the dead in Christ are resurrected before the living are taken in the rapture.
......but fail to realize that rev 14 declares Jesus harvests the earth of the elect DURING THE TRIB .
That harvest is not, and can not be, the rapture.

Listen to every postrib rapture teacher. NONE OF THEM can discern rev14. Rev 14 is like a nuclear bomb to the postrib rapture doctrine.
Then try and find one that brings in the RAPTURE PARABLE. mat 25. If they do go into it to "explaine" it, they HAVE TO reframe it every time.

Only pretrib rapture fits

 

[ewq1938]

I think you would need Jesus examples to read Lot was removed AFTER sodom was destroyed

Wrong. Lot left Sodom BEFORE it was destroyed.

 

[ewq1938]

Its kinda neat the way God just says "departure" though. Kinda adds to the pretrib doctrine in a way.

It's very neat how Pretrib wants to commit apostasia.

Luk_13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It's very neat how Pretrib wants to commit apostasia.

Luk_13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

I already told you I am COMFORTABLE with either reading of it.

What is neat, is how you attack me personally calling me apostate when I WENT TO THE GREEK that literally translates it "from standing"
Depart.
Departing from mosses teaching
Departing from the faith,
Depart from this earth.

Stop being paranoid of the actual word "depart".....from

 

[rebuilder 454]

Wrong. Lot left Sodom BEFORE it was destroyed.

Correct
I was saying that it would be wrong to espouse a doctrine that NEEDED it to be the other way around.

And yes he removed his people first.

 

[David in NJ]

So true. That is why I am bible first.
I need no teachers, as the new testament pattern is being led by the spirit.
So the bible authenticates the Spirit. We can not go against the bible.
The verses I bring are in no way taught in the postrib doctrine.
We are to change our doctrine should it refute God's word.
"red flags" have to be a part of that equation.
My view of end times changed drastically when I saw the true panoramic picture.
It is the dynamic of the bride and groom.
That is the heart of heaven.
Bride calls out for the groom.
Bride is obscessed with the groom
The groom longs for his bride.
The last words of the bible, the bride calls out for the groom, in unison with the Spirit.

I think you may be a man of God. seems like you are.
my job is to present God's word. We are required to submit to that even if it goes against doctrine.
The bride/ groom dynamic is a game changer

Your First Red Flag is this: the LORD says:
a.) "Immediately after the tribulation of those days"
b.) "And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

 

[GRACE ambassador]

It's very neat how Pretrib wants to commit apostasia.

Luk_13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Interesting, the 'judgment' begins - post-trib is a "work of righteousness" and:

pre-trib is a "work of iniquity"? = you guys Never stop, do you?

IF we may be Confused with a different view than yours, and now, all of a sudden:

You have the 'authority' to judge and sentence us to damnation Over a Non-salvific issue?

Thanks Be Unto God for HIS:

Grace, Peace, MERCY, Love, and JOY!

Amen.

 

[The Light]

Thanks!!!!!

The church raptured = The dead in Christ and the remnant bride (half the church).
The foolish virgins ( the other half left behind) get in through martyrdom,because they refuse the mark.
the 144k in heaven (raptured or martyred) right before those harvested with a sickle are raptured (rev 14)...the messianic Jews

Harvest is 3 or 4 parts depending on how you look at it.
The harvest of the earth is also 3 or 4 parts.

Do you have thoughts on who the foolish virgins are?

And I agree there are multiple harvests.

 

[The Light]

And yet believers come out of it in the 5th seal and afterwards.

Which disproves what?

No, because the messages to the churches are separate from the heavenly scene. Failure to see a distinction will always result in improper understanding. When you realize Ch.5 is a past event when Christ entered heaven and John witnessing it, everything else will open up. But you don’t, and ignorance is bliss.

Of course Christ being in heaven in Ch 5 is a past event. Which proves my point.

That comment does not show anything but a defensive mechanism for one that doesn’t even contemplate logical conclusions. Questions should be asked and there should be no room for error if there is truth. But your hypothesis on the Elders falls flat when questions asked cannot be answered. And your failure to address them proves it; instead attacking me with my lack of understanding. Am a talking to an adult or a child? If an adult, why do you resort to these tactics?

Your questions are without any merit or reason. Just a bunch of meaningless words tossed on paper.

The 24 elders have crowns. You don't get crowns until Jesus comes so obviously Jesus has come in Revelation 4. That's cut and dried. The fact you fail to understand this does not change the facts and conclusion presented.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Your First Red Flag is this: the LORD says:
a.) "Immediately after the tribulation of those days"
b.) "And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

No red flag
WE both agree he returns after the gt.
The red flag is that see a rapture that is not here.
The angels are gathering from heaven.
that is after the gt.
Then Jesus speaks of another coming later in mat 24 that is BEFORE THE FLOOD... Before the trib
You are verifying the pretrib rapture without knowing it,because you left out the other coming.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Do you have thoughts on who the foolish virgins are?

And I agree there are multiple harvests.

The 5 foolish ran out of oil.
That is the only difference between them and the Wise virgins.

Oil represents the Holy Spirit.
The wise were on fire and intimate. The foolish were carnal and not as committed.
They stay behind and are martyred because they refuse the mark.

 

[ewq1938]

Interesting, the 'judgment' begins - post-trib is a "work of righteousness" and:

pre-trib is a "work of iniquity"? = you guys Never stop, do you?

I clearly highlighted the DEPART...because the departing of Apostasy is to leave Christ.

IF we may be Confused with a different view than yours, and now, all of a sudden:

You have the 'authority' to judge and sentence us to damnation Over a Non-salvific issue?

I quoted a verse about departing so you can see what to "depart" actually means . I did not judge you.

Apostasy can very much be salvific.