A question about the rapture

[Jonatec]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed until 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

 

[GISMYS_7]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed until 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

2 Thess. 2:1-3 is about the return of Jesus to earth NOT the rapture.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Hello @Jonatec

It's wonderful when I see people all over the world, you're in Bulgaria and I'm in the USA, look to Christ. Our people all over and yet we all worship the same God.

First, please understand that you'll get many different responses on these forums.

In 2 Thess 1, Paul just finished telling the Thessalonian church: And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

He was describing Christ's coming. In Ch. 2, Paul continues on the same note of Christ coming and says, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him.

The coming of Christ is his second advent and our gathering together unto Him is the resurrection of the dead and the living. Otherwise, what other gathering together unto Him is there that Paul was just talking about? As one commentator puts it:

but the gathering together of all the saints at the last day, at the second coming of Christ; for he will come with ten thousand of his saints, yea, with all his saints, when their dead bodies shall be raised and reunited to their souls, and they with the living saints will be caught up into the air, to meet the Lord there and be ever with him;

And as you noticed, before his coming and our gathering together unto Him, there are 2 prerequisites.
1. There must be an apostasy first
2. and the man of sin must be revealed.

As you understood it and posted it above, it was correct how the spirit led you to interpret it. A Pre-TB rapture cannot happen the way its theory is described because it does not follow Paul's teaching in this chapter. Not to mention, the resurrection of the dead precedes the rapture and that does not happen till the last day. Not 7 years before the last day.

 

[Truth7t7]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed until 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

"Yes" The Church Will Be Present on Earth, There Won't Be A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Don't Be Deceived

"The Church" seen in Luke 21 below, those who are persecuted for the name of Jesus Christ, they will be eyewitnesses of the future great tribulation and second coming of Jesus in the heavens, any claim of a pre or mid tribulation rapture would be false

The Tribulation verses 25-26 below, the Second Coming verses 27-28 below

"Yes" The Church On Earth, Hated By The World For The Name Of Jesus (Verse 17)

Luke 21:17 & 25-28KJV
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh

 

[ScottA]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed until 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

Verse 3 of 2 Thessalonians 2 ( Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...) describes a circumstance that can and does occur at any time in history.

In other words, there is indeed a context for "falling away" to come in the future after Paul said the words, but also a more personal context for everyone who ever falls, and even a greater context in the beginning with the fall of all mankind. In this way, Paul gave an answer that could be received by those looking to the future, while at the same time not violating the general truth that through one man's offence against God, all have fallen away.

Paul also eluded to this general and yet personal context reality in 1 Corinthians 15:23 first addressing the matter by group, but then clarified, saying "But each one in his own order." "One" in this use is defined in the original language, as "each" "individual."

So...Yes mid-trib, but No...not at all as it has commonly been believed.

 

[Keturah]

I did not see this thread until now but I have proposed a question in another's thread "the treachery of doctrine" as to why folks buy into this theology by John N Dary (1800's ) of a pre-trib rapture.

 

[Truth7t7]

Verse 3 of 2 Thessalonians 2 ( Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...) describes a circumstance that can and does occur at any time in history.

In other words, there is indeed a context for "falling away" to come in the future after Paul said the words, but also a more personal context for everyone who ever falls, and even a greater context in the beginning with the fall of all mankind. In this way, Paul gave an answer that could be received by those looking to the future, while at the same time not violating the general truth that through one man's offence against God, all have fallen away.

Paul also eluded to this general and yet personal context reality in 1 Corinthians 15:23 first addressing the matter by group, but then clarified, saying "But each one in his own order." "One" in this use is defined in the original language, as "each" "individual."

So...Yes mid-trib, but No...not at all as it has commonly been believed.

False, the passage is speaking of a future falling away from the faith and the man of sin being revealed to the church on earth

Scott you don't believe in a future human man to be revealed to the world proclaiming to be God in the flesh on this earth, nor do you believe in a future literal, visible, second coming of Jesus in the heavens

 

[Truth7t7]

I did not see this thread until now but I have proposed a question in another's thread "the treachery of doctrine" as to why folks buy into this theology by John N Dary (1800's ) of a pre-trib rapture.

People sitting in pews in attendance for a social gathering, those that never open a Bible and search the scripture to validate the teachings, those that don't have a clue of John N. Darby or C.I. Scofield, or what the words dispensationalism or Dallas Theological Seminary are "Sad"

 

[ScottA]

False, the passage is speaking of a future falling away from the faith and the man of sin being revealed to the church on earth

Scott you don't believe in a future human man to be revealed to the world proclaiming to be God in the flesh on this earth, nor do you believe in a future literal, visible, second coming of Jesus in the heavens

Your beliefs are certainly in accord with the teachings of the church (which was foretold to be tainted by false teachers), and yes, the future was indeed to experience a falling away. But the greater context and truth began in the beginning with the falling away of Adam and Eve, and individually includes all who sin of every age throughout the entire history of the world.

So, unless you want to stand before God and tell Him, "but Lord, there was no 'falling away' until after Paul addressed it for the future"...you would do well to reconsider that "all have fallen short of the glory of God" since the beginning.

 

[Keturah]

People sitting in pews in attendance for a social gathering, those that never open a Bible and search the scripture to validate the teachings, those that don't have a clue of John N. Darby or C.I. Scofield, or what the words dispensationalism or Dallas Theological Seminary are "Sad"

I see written by many here that they don't read nor study the word of God.....it is truly


Sad

 

[ScottA]

I did not see this thread until now but I have proposed a question in another's thread "the treachery of doctrine" as to why folks buy into this theology by John N Dary (1800's ) of a pre-trib rapture.

...It is because men are self-centered.

In other words, it is easier to read that there is "a falling away" and believe "Surely not me!" in spite of confessing to be a sinner and one who's fall dates back to Adam in whom all have sinned--and point the finger...than it is to admit to the whole truth of all that is written implementing us all.

"The man of sin" being revealed...is us, just as it was with Adam.

 

[Keturah]

"The man of sin" being revealed...is us, just as it was with Adam." ScottA #11

I disagree.
The man of sin is NOT US, for we are not hidden except in Christ.

Apostasy or falling away happens as you say but there will be a GREAT FALLING AWAY B4 THE MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED....AKA THE ANTI-CHRIST.

I choose to have my sins go before me through salvation, repentance & his forgiveness.

Today with all the technology, everyone is watching & being watched!

 

[Davy]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed until 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

1. Firstly, you have no reason to 'assume' a pre-trib rapture in any of that.

Especially since Paul is very plain that those two events you mentioned MUST happen first, before the Church is gathered. And you can't just leave out the later verses there that are part of that timeline, like 2 Thess.2:4 which is part of the subject of verse 3, and is specifically showing what the coming false-Messiah is going to do. And 2 Thess.2:8-10 which reveals Christ's coming to destroy "that Wicked" one. So, that means that "man of sin" is still working up to that time of Christ's coming.

2. Secondly, Apostle Paul is actually following the order of events that Lord Jesus Himself gave for the time of His future coming to gather His saints, per Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24.

3. And thirdly, Paul's idea of the 'revealing' of that false one has 2 applications:

a. when that "man of sin" shows up in Jerusalem at the end, as per Christ's warning about the placing of the "abomination of desolation", it will then be 'revealed' to Christ's elect about that false-Messiah. But the majority of the world will remain deceived as to his identity, wondering at that beast like Rev.17:8. So that is about that false one being revealed to Christ's elect when he is setup in Jerusalem for the end.

b. only on the day of Christ's coming to destroy that "man of sin", will that false one then be revealed to the deceived and wicked as to his real identity. There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth due to shame on that day by those who 'wondered' about that coming false one.

 

[ScottA]

"The man of sin" being revealed...is us, just as it was with Adam." ScottA #11

I disagree.
The man of sin is NOT US, for we are not hidden except in Christ.

Apostasy or falling away happens as you say but there will be a GREAT FALLING AWAY B4 THE MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED....AKA THE ANTI-CHRIST.

I choose to have my sins go before me through salvation, repentance & his forgiveness.

Today with all the technology, everyone is watching & being watched!

I was not speculating or giving my opinion, that you might disagree.

But let me ask you: So, you believe that you are not fallen, that you are not descendant from Adam and Eve by whom all have sinned against God and who hid themselves; or that sinning after Adam is not anti-Christ and against Him who was before the foundation of the world and for and by whom all things were and are made?

To the contrary, that is the lie that was believed and taught by false teachers of destructive doctrines causing strong delusion and great apostacy. Just as it was all foretold to come, and has come.

And yet, it was also foretold that we would be lead unto all truth...which is by Him of whom it is written, "Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.” Which was to come, and has come, just prior to the sounding of the seventh angel.


PS, Please use the "Reply" feature at the lower right hand of comments, or your reply may go unnoticed. Thank you!

 

[ScottA]

1. Firstly, you have no reason to 'assume' a pre-trib rapture in any of that.

Especially since Paul is very plain that those two events you mentioned MUST happen first, before the Church is gathered. And you can't just leave out the later verses there that are part of that timeline, like 2 Thess.2:4 which is part of the subject of verse 3, and is specifically showing what the coming false-Messiah is going to do. And 2 Thess.2:8-10 which reveals Christ's coming to destroy "that Wicked" one. So, that means that "man of sin" is still working up to that time of Christ's coming.

2. Secondly, Apostle Paul is actually following the order of events that Lord Jesus Himself gave for the time of His future coming to gather His saints, per Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24.

3. And thirdly, Paul's idea of the 'revealing' of that false one has 2 applications:

a. when that "man of sin" shows up in Jerusalem at the end, as per Christ's warning about the placing of the "abomination of desolation", it will then be 'revealed' to Christ's elect about that false-Messiah. But the majority of the world will remain deceived as to his identity, wondering at that beast like Rev.17:8. So that is about that false one being revealed to Christ's elect when he is setup in Jerusalem for the end.

b. only on the day of Christ's coming to destroy that "man of sin", will that false one then be revealed to the deceived and wicked as to his real identity. There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth due to shame on that day by those who 'wondered' about that coming false one.

What good is it to requote the scriptures, only to yourself assume what is contrary to what is also written?

You say "only on the day of Christ's coming to destroy that "man of sin", will that false one then be revealed..." But the scriptures say that Christ destroyed that man of sin to whom you refer, at the time of His victory on the cross...2,000 years ago.

 

[Davy]

What good is it to requote the scriptures, only to yourself assume what is contrary to what is also written?

That's an ignorant and mocking statement. If you don't like my posts, then no one is bending your arm to read it.

You say "only on the day of Christ's coming to destroy that "man of sin", will that false one then be revealed..." But the scriptures say that Christ destroyed that man of sin to whom you refer, at the time of His victory on the cross...2,000 years ago.

What a bunch of malarkey that statement is.

If Christ at the time of His cross destroyed the devil, then why did Apostle Peter warn the Church that the devil is still roaming about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour? (1 Peter 5:8)

Obviously, Christ defeated the devil 'spiritually only' so far, and Satan's literal destruction in the "lake of fire" is still future.

 

[GISMYS_7]

Yes!!! In the days just after the rapture millions will choose to become believers but then they must try to live under anti-Christ rule in the years of the great tribulation.

 

[ScottA]

That's an ignorant and mocking statement. If you don't like my posts, then no one is bending your arm to read it.


What a bunch of malarkey that statement is.

If Christ at the time of His cross destroyed the devil, then why did Apostle Peter warn the Church that the devil is still roaming about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour? (1 Peter 5:8)

Obviously, Christ defeated the devil 'spiritually only' so far, and Satan's literal destruction in the "lake of fire" is still future.

Firstly, what I like or dislike is not the reason I read or comment. But rather being faced with a question (as in the Original Post of this thread) I freely give what has been given to me to answer, which is by the spirit of God in accordance with the gifts given to men by Jesus, the evidence of Satan's defeat.

As for Peter's warning regarding Satan, the reason he still roams about like a roaring lion, is because the short times of the gentiles and those who do not carry the seal of Christ, is all he has left. Even so, Satan has no power over those who are in Christ, for Christ has indeed defeated him; and if we believe these things which were promised, he has no authority over us. On the contrary, if we believe that Christ's victory on the cross was only partial, Satan is yet allowed to devour until the end.

 

[marks]

before the rapture:

Before the rapture? Or before the day of the LORD/day of Christ?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 NKJV

1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ...

Assuming a pre-trib rapture "gathering together" vs 1, and assuming "the son of perdition" vs 3 is the anti-Christ. Verse 3 says two things must happen before the rapture:

1) the falling away (the great apostacy in the church).
2) and the man of sin is revealed (the anti-Christ)

But I assumed the prophecies indicated that the anti-Christ would not be revealed until 3 and half years into the tribulation.

Q. What does verse 3 really mean? Is Paul here suggesting a mid-trib rapture?

Why would you assume that 2 Thess 2:1 is about a pre-trib rapture? Is there more than one future "coming of our Lord Jesus Christ"? No. That is not taught in scripture.

What verse 3 means is that before the rapture, which will occur at "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ", first a falling away has to occur and the revealing of the man of sin. The rapture is post-trib (Matthew 24:29-31).