The Main Focus

[Randy Kluth]

Pre-Wrath is GOOD and from the GOOD GOD ABOVE = FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT

Noah was SAFE inside the ARK with God's Signature upon it.

David, I don't have a problem with PreWrath. I simply disagree with it.

However, it is very, very close to my position. As such, it is of little concern to me that we disagree on this matter.

For some, however, any disagreement is a wide breach, and a matter of heresy and guilt. I do take issue with this kind, and will indulge them on each point, surrendering nothing to their judgmentalism.

 

[Timtofly]

No Sir. Christ returns to the clouds at the 6th seal and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. They all return to heaven for the marriage supper which is why you have a great multitude in heaven in Revelation 7

Revelation 6 never states where Jesus is. You have to use other Scripture. Zechariah 14 declares Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives.

That multitude in heaven was there since the OT redeemed entered Paradise. The thief on the Cross was in Paradise that day. The multitude resurrected out of Abraham's bosom joined the thief from the cross on Sunday.

John said there were already people in Paradise in the 5th Seal. Not that they just arrived. We know the OT redeemed arrived in 30AD. They have been serving God day and night in His Temple. Yes a lot came out of great tribulation, the last 1993 years since the Cross. Some tribulation greater than others. Not all were martyred. Since it says they were serving God day and night, they did not all just arrive. Yes many did just arrive. The rapture and Second Coming just happened. But many more have been there since the Cross, and in a steady flow of redeemed from the earth, since then. When they all met in the air, all were physically gathered from all over Paradise, the same as physically gathered from all over the earth. This happens before the Trumpets.

 

[Timtofly]

v28 -And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Another 'SLAM DUNK' scripture rebuking the lie of pre-fib rapture.

So being hated for Christ's sake only starts after the tribulation begins?

What about all those hated in the first century. Is that when the tribulation started?

They lifted up their heads then in anticipation. Paul was ready for the rapture.

 

[David in NJ]

So being hated for Christ's sake only starts after the tribulation begins?

What about all those hated in the first century. Is that when the tribulation started?

They lifted up their heads then in anticipation. Paul was ready for the rapture.

The Tribulation began in Genesis.

 

[The Light]

You don't understand my perspective because you're so biased against it and indoctrinated in your own position. I'm not saying you have to agree with me--just try to understand outside of your own little box. There are other views, you understand?

This is not true. I am using the Word that shows that Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, and we see that coming in scripture we can see that it is BEFORE wrath. It seems you are concluding that tribulation and wrath are the same thing and they are not as we can clearly prove by scripture.

You have to begin with the assumption that saints have to be removed from the *time of wrath* in order to avoid wrath, when in reality, God's wrath can be directed towards the world, with the saints feeling its impact, without God viewing the saints as "under wrath." From time immemorial, saints have been going through "times of wrath" that God has directed upon the ungodly earth, even though the saints are not the *targets* of this wrath.

That's just it, I am not making an assumption that saints have to be removed from the time of wrath. I am reading scripture the show that the Church will be removed before the tribulation. The tribulation is the time of Jacobs trouble when God has turned His attention to Israel.

The gathering from heaven and earth that we see in the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 includes the Church that is gathered from heaven and the seed of the woman, Israel, that is gathered from the earth.

ONLY the nation of Israel, those that flee to a place of protection, and unbelievers will be on earth when the wrath of God occurs.

For example, Noah and his family went through a time of wrath during the flood, and felt its impact. However, they were not the objects of God's wrath.

Noah and his family were shut in the ark 7 days before the flood even as the Church will be in heaven 7 years before the end of wrath.

It is the same in the last days. The Church will experience God's wrath poured out upon the world because of its antiChristianity. However, the Church will *not* be the objects of God's wrath, simply because they experience the effects of a world under judgment. If you understand this, then you will understand my position. I already understand your position. It's called Pre-Wrath.

I don't think you understand my position or in fact even your position.

Here is my position.
There are two raptures as the fig tree has two harvests.
The Church will be raptured to heaven before the seals are opened, pre tribulation rapture. The dead in Christ rise first then the Lord returns for the alive that remained. This is the grain harvest of barley and wheat. It will be like the days of Noah when this occurs as Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood

Then there are 144,000 first fruits sealed and taken to heaven from the twelve tribes across the earth. This guarantees a second harvest which is the fruit harvest. It is the seed of the woman Israel. This harvest occurs IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION, so it is POST TRIB. It also occurs BEFORE wrath so it is PRE WRATH as you said. However, it as I pointed out is not the Church that is raptured pre wrath as they are already in Heaven before the seals are opened.

Now as to your position. You claim to be post trib and post wrath as you think that tribulation and wrath are the same thing which we can prove are not the same thing.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So in your position, you want to claim that the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is the same coming of Jesus at the end of the trumpets of the seventh seal which is the wrath of God.

And yet if you understand the above verses you will see that the tribulation is OVER before the wrath of God BEGINS.

Therefore, your conclusion and position is in error according to the Word of God. Your choice is to examine the scriptures and change your position or put your head back in the sand walk around in the dark like most.

I would just add this, if you wish to truly understand my position about God's wrath. In the Bible, wrath is viewed not as an experience of a time of wrath upon earth when saints feel the effects of God's judgment upon an ungodly world. More, God's wrath is viewed as earthly judgments designed to lead to eternal damnation.

Judgments that the saints feel due to their own wrongs is viewed as "God's Discipline," and not Eternal Wrath. Israel went through lots of times of Discipline, which might be called "God's Wrath."

The saints will not be on earth at the time of Gods wrath. The Church will be in heaven BEFORE the seals are opened. The seals are the final week. Then the second harvest will occur immediately after the tribulation and before wrath. Here is that harvest.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

This harvest occurs BEFORE wrath. It is the gathering from heaven and earth this is seen with the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 which at the sixth seal BEFORE wrath.

For some, however, this wrath meant eternal destruction and exclusion from God's Kingdom. For others, it was simply a corrective to properly prepare them and cleanse them in order that they might inherit God's Kingdom.

Only the nation of Israel, those that fled to a place of protection and unbelievers will be on earth during Gods wrath. All believers will be in heaven for the marriage supper and will return with the armies of heaven.

 

[The Light]

Revelation 6 never states where Jesus is. You have to use other Scripture. Zechariah 14 declares Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives.

Jesus does not come to the mount of Olives in Revelation 6, he comes to the mount of Olives after leaving heaven with His armies in Revelation 19.

This event happens at the end of the trumpets and can be seen again at the end of the vials.

That multitude in heaven was there since the OT redeemed entered Paradise. The thief on the Cross was in Paradise that day. The multitude resurrected out of Abraham's bosom joined the thief from the cross on Sunday.

Nah. The multitude in heaven are the Church that are there before the seals are opened and those alive of the 12 tribes and the dead of the 12 tribes and the Gentiles that are killed during the time of testing from the second harvest.

John said there were already people in Paradise in the 5th Seal.

Those in the 5th seal are those that are killed during the tribulation after the seals are opened. Here is the great tribulation which occurs at the 5th seal.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Not that they just arrived. We know the OT redeemed arrived in 30AD. They have been serving God day and night in His Temple. Yes a lot came out of great tribulation, the last 1993 years since the Cross. Some tribulation greater than others. Not all were martyred. Since it says they were serving God day and night, they did not all just arrive. Yes many did just arrive. The rapture and Second Coming just happened. But many more have been there since the Cross, and in a steady flow of redeemed from the earth, since then. When they all met in the air, all were physically gathered from all over Paradise, the same as physically gathered from all over the earth. This happens before the Trumpets.

The dead in Christ rise FIRST.

 

[The Light]

The Tribulation began in Genesis.

The Great Tribulation will begin soon.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Great Tribulation will begin soon.

Jesus said it began for the Jews in 70 AD.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

With respect to the Reign of Antichrist, which many confuse with the "Great Tribulation," we aren't largely given the "times and seasons." Everybody wants to be a prophet. Everybody wants to be Edgar Cayce or Nostradamus. Everybody wants to read crystal balls and tell others their future. Sad!

Remember that those who proclaimed themselves prophets, but were liars, were to be stoned. Let God do the date setting, and you'll be safe. Otherwise, I think it's also safe to say that Antichrist is coming soon. But our emphasis should be on preaching Christ for the salvation of others, and for the edification of the saints.

 

[David in NJ]

@marks,

Good Morning my Brother in the Kingdom of the Love of His Son, the LORD Jesus Christ.

marks, we left off yesterday desiring Truth from our Heavenly Father's Word.

You and i must SEE this together as One Body = PSALM 51:6
"Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom"

His love for us is found here = John ch17 "Your word is Truth. Sanctify them in Your Truth."

HE has only given One Truth for One Body = Gospel, Acts, Ephesians, Galatians, Romans

Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

[marks]

@marks,

Good Morning my Brother in the Kingdom of the Love of His Son, the LORD Jesus Christ.

marks, we left off yesterday desiring Truth from our Heavenly Father's Word.

You and i must SEE this together as One Body = PSALM 51:6
"Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom"

His love for us is found here = John ch17 "Your word is Truth. Sanctify them in Your Truth."

HE has only given One Truth for One Body = Gospel, Acts, Ephesians, Galatians, Romans

Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Would you object to the idea that God would take the ethnic Israel, would preserve them as a nation until Jesus' coming in power and glory, and then would bring all who remain after this time of horrible affliction to faith, believing in Jesus, and being saved by Him?

Is there some reason why you think this should not happen?

Much love!

 

[marks]

You and i must SEE this together as One Body = PSALM 51:6
"Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom"

This reminds me of Psalm 139,

Psalms 139:9-17 KJV
9) If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10) Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11) If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12) Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
13) For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14) I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
15) My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16) Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
17) How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

No matter where we are, no matter where we go, no matter what we are doing, God is there, with us. We do not ever hide from Him! The reason?

Because God Himself formed us in the womb. We are fashioned by God, in every tiny detail. He knows me through and through. He knows me as I cannot know myself. Every moment of my life was held in God's mind as He made me.

All I can do is gaze at Him in amazement!

The place you quoted . . . God made is inside and out, and He has a result in mind for His creation! That this secret inner part would be harmonious with Him!

And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom"

He's still working, and, He who began a good work in you will complete until the day of Christ Jesus.

Much love!

 

[The Light]

Jesus said it began for the Jews in 70 AD.

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

With respect to the Reign of Antichrist, which many confuse with the "Great Tribulation," we aren't largely given the "times and seasons." Everybody wants to be a prophet. Everybody wants to be Edgar Cayce or Nostradamus. Everybody wants to read crystal balls and tell others their future. Sad!

Remember that those who proclaimed themselves prophets, but were liars, were to be stoned. Let God do the date setting, and you'll be safe. Otherwise, I think it's also safe to say that Antichrist is coming soon. But our emphasis should be on preaching Christ for the salvation of others, and for the edification of the saints.

You should know the times and seasons. The pharisees didn't know the time the Messiah should arrive and Jesus chastised them for not understanding.

You are correct that there will be a post tribulation rapture, but you are unaware that He is coming when you think not. There is also a pretrib rapture.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You should know the times and seasons. The pharisees didn't know the time the Messiah should arrive and Jesus chastised them for not understanding.

You are correct that there will be a post tribulation rapture, but you are unaware that He is coming when you think not. There is also a pretrib rapture.

For 1800 years Christians did not see any Pretrib Coming of Christ. Sorry, if 18 centuries of Christians, including great historical scholars, did not see any Pretrib Coming being taught in the Scriptures, then neither should we invent an interpretation that indicates that. It's conjuring beliefs to avoid suffering, and to make those who go earlier some kind of elitist saint. In other words, it runs astray of God's Spirit and living Word.

I do agree we should know our own time and season. My warning has to do with prognostications about times and seasons in order to be a self-styled prophet.

We may speculate--fair enough. But when we start proclaiming the fulfillment of this or that prophecy, we must try to be right on whether it fits our own time period or whether God has really spoken to us.

 

[The Light]

For 1800 years Christians did not see any Pretrib Coming of Christ.

Total baloney. The early Church believed the teaching of Jesus. That changed with Augustine and few others.

Sorry, if 18 centuries of Christians, including great historical scholars, did not see any Pretrib Coming being taught in the Scriptures, then neither should we invent an interpretation that indicates that. It's conjuring beliefs to avoid suffering, and to make those who go earlier some kind of elitist saint. In other words, it runs astray of God's Spirit and living Word.

I can tell you have never RE-seached this for yourself. It's like someone telling me they believe in evolution. I know right off, they have never done any RE-search but only believe the nonsense they have been told.

I do agree we should know our own time and season.

And yet you do not understand the Lord is coming when you think not.

My warning has to do with prognostications about times and seasons in order to be a self-styled prophet.

I don't know any prophets.

We may speculate--fair enough. But when we start proclaiming the fulfillment of this or that prophecy, we must try to be right on whether it fits our own time period or whether God has really spoken to us.

You seem to be confusing prophets with understanding the Word of God. The Jews were given the time in the scriptures that the Messiah would arrive and yet they did not see what was right in front of them. They should have known the time the Messiah would arrive, and that He would be from the House of David. And yet they did not understand.

Same as today. We are told to watch so we will know the hour that He comes.

Revelation 3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Total baloney. The early Church believed the teaching of Jesus. That changed with Augustine and few others.

You don't know your history very well. Pretrib Doctrine didn't exist for 1800 years in Church history. I suppose one could always find a rare exception, but certainly not any recognized theology or movement adopting that position. To call something baloney reveals something about you--you're not willing to produce any evidence of Pretrib Theology, and yet you wish to insult my statement? What does that say about you, "Light?"

I can tell you have never RE-seached this for yourself.

What a dishonest person! I've studied and read on this subject since the late 70s. You're projecting your own ignorance onto me. Do you know who Robert Gundry is? Do you know who George E. Ladd is? I've gone over each point in Pretrib Theology, and answered every one of them. Please show me how ignorant I am by asking me about any point you think proves your position?

In reality, the only belief remotely connected to Pretrib in Church history is Imminency belief, ie the idea that Christ is coming soon. But that doesn't mean Christ can come "at any moment." Who believed that in the Early Church?

 

[David in NJ]

Would you object to the idea that God would take the ethnic Israel, would preserve them as a nation until Jesus' coming in power and glory, and then would bring all who remain after this time of horrible affliction to faith, believing in Jesus, and being saved by Him?

Is there some reason why you think this should not happen?

Much love!

@marks says (David says100% True)= God would take the ethnic Israel, would preserve them as a nation until Jesus' coming in power and glory, and then would bring all who remain after this time of horrible affliction to faith, believing in Jesus, and being saved by Him?

 

[David in NJ]

You don't know your history very well. Pretrib Doctrine didn't exist for 1800 years in Church history. I suppose one could always find a rare exception, but certainly not any recognized theology or movement adopting that position. To call something baloney reveals something about you--you're not willing to produce any evidence of Pretrib Theology, and yet you wish to insult my statement? What does that say about you, "Light?"

What a dishonest person! I've studied and read on this subject since the late 70s. You're projecting your own ignorance onto me. Do you know who Robert Gundry is? Do you know who George E. Ladd is? I've gone over each point in Pretrib Theology, and answered every one of them. Please show me how ignorant I am by asking me about any point you think proves your position?

In reality, the only belief remotely connected to Pretrib in Church history is Imminency belief, ie the idea that Christ is coming soon. But that doesn't mean Christ can come "at any moment." Who believed that in the Early Church?

My favorite sandwhich when i was a kid was baloney..........with Hot Mustard!

 

[David in NJ]

You don't know your history very well. Pretrib Doctrine didn't exist for 1800 years in Church history. I suppose one could always find a rare exception, but certainly not any recognized theology or movement adopting that position. To call something baloney reveals something about you--you're not willing to produce any evidence of Pretrib Theology, and yet you wish to insult my statement? What does that say about you, "Light?"

What a dishonest person! I've studied and read on this subject since the late 70s. You're projecting your own ignorance onto me. Do you know who Robert Gundry is? Do you know who George E. Ladd is? I've gone over each point in Pretrib Theology, and answered every one of them. Please show me how ignorant I am by asking me about any point you think proves your position?

In reality, the only belief remotely connected to Pretrib in Church history is Imminency belief, ie the idea that Christ is coming soon. But that doesn't mean Christ can come "at any moment." Who believed that in the Early Church?

@The Light is trying to tell you that you have not studied under the 'pre-fib' pastors that he adheres too.

A quick brush-up for you is to read the fantasy 'Left-Behind' series = truly a work of fantastical imaginations.....

P.S. - When studying 'pre-fib' always ignore the scriptures that say things like: Hebrews 13:5

Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have.
For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” So we may boldly say:
“The Lord is my helper;
I will not fear.
What can man do to me?”

The more you ignore the more they implore and to this i say: "Show them the Door" = Luke 13:22-30

 

[Cassandra]

The thief on the Cross was in Paradise that day.

Jesus said "today" the thief would be with Him in paradise . Jesus was not in paradise that day, though.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus said "today" the thief would be with Him in paradise . Jesus was not in paradise that day, though.

As soon as JESUS died on that Cross HE was in Paradise.