So what will be the Mark of the Beast at the end time

[MatthewG]

I dont know what I believe about it, @wrecked. Just sharing. Revelation is very difficult to understand, especially with not much knowledge of the Old Testament. Sorry to disappoint.

 

[marks]

You don't have home internet? Are you at the library using their internet? I cut the cord of cable a loooong time ago. Do not watch TV at all but I do have Alexa and, already made playlists from all of my CD's. The other way would be much more expensive. One day we won't even have access to any of them I think.

I'm at work. I man the phones and email, and supervise the shop, and things are really slow most days. Even when the shop is busy my part is pretty small, but necessary. So I have some free time.

We have a collection of DVD/VHS, and the wife borrows from the library. And I've got a collection of innocuous fodder downloaded from YouTube.

Much love!

 

[BarneyFife]

I believe that the apostles were creating and teaching the words of Jesus

Agree

and not the Old Testament

This view might be problematic since so much of the OT is quoted and referenced in the NT.

Why would the apostles be teaching the Torah, which had already been around for a few thousand years?

At the time, the OT was quite established as Scripture. And it seems doubtful that folks would have been ready to delegate Scripture to the shelf because of its age, especially when it testified to, and contained so many things pertaining to Christ. (See John 5:39, Acts 3:18, Luke 24:27, and their endless cross references.)

In fact, there are only 2 times the NT is referred to as Scripture within itself. Once is only an allusion.

Undoubtedly, the apostles were themselves writing down scriptures that were being copied and shared with the newly formed churches.

Undoubtedly, indeed, but the canon of NT Scripture wasn't settled until 100+ years after Christ's death.

 

[Scott Downey]

"These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."

How do you come up with the thinking they "affect all those who live on the entire earth." That isn't what the words imply.

God grants authority to his two witnesses to prophesy for 1260 days clothed in sackcloth. 1260 days is the same as 42 months and a time, times, and half a time. This time marker is the time of tribulation and the tribulation is not local to the region, it affects the entire world, and so do they.

 

[Scott Downey]

The Coming of the Son of Man​

25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

The Parable of the Fig Tree​

29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

The Importance of Watching​

34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with [h]carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may [i]be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

[Scott Downey]

That these 2 witnesses affect all the earth is shown in the response of the world when they are killed.
And they prophesy for the 3.5 years of the great tribulation period, which affects all the earth. Rev 11 mention the tribes and nations of the earth.

9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations [d]will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.
10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

 

[MatthewG]

@Scott Downey much respect to you and your view, I just dont believe it involved the entire earth but the whole region which you mentioned you disagree with it.

Im not afraid anymore of any of it really. The only one to fear is Yahava, and to look to Him, and from my perspective Jesus has done it all, and people should freelyy decide how they will live their lives with God either in it or not, cause Yahava loves all people and is constantly calling for them to let Him into their life by the spirit calling out to people who decide to let him in or not of course.


There is a defeat to some if Jesus is coming right around the corner whats the point of even doing anything lets wait and see for him to come; that will happen individually at death; and today we should live in freedom and look to Jesus and his victory today. Not to happen one day.

Peace to you, and you may freely choose what you will,

Matthew

 

[MatthewG]

It's good not to know what we believe. That's why we keep searching.

"The greatest impediment Christians have obtaining truth is when they think they already have it."

God could exist. I don't know. Jesus Christ could have come back as promised. I don't know.

But to trust them, just seems right, and life-altering.

 

[Scott Downey]

Well, yes, the time is Tribulation. But how to you arrive at the conclusion that this affects the entire world? So, the best I can do is presume. Is it Verse 6 and 9?

In Rev 11 it's the word 'ge' is used for earth it's the most common word for earth in the NT.
Twice the word is used to denote a country. "To smite the land" is how the interlinear words it.

The interlinear uses the word earth and land for 'ge'.
In Revelation 11:6 the TR uses the word LAND with the article indicating a specific land area. Used without the article it has much broader meanings.

It doesn't seem to me that what these two do in the Temple court while witnessing to Muslims affects the entire planet. Maybe the region but not the entire planet. I tend to think it's more local.

The word earth is a tricky one to interpret. The use of the article or lack of its use makes a big difference. Esp. when used with the word ALL. In Rev. 11:6vthe article IS used with LAND indicating a specific area.

So you must think the great tribulation times is local to Jerusalem then. Even though in many scriptures it's description is worldwide. Such as Daniel 7

 

[Earburner]

So we see how many preconceived ideas and wrong teachings that have come into the church, can be brought in and have been, even by well meaning men and become tradition, but not be true. We also see this in the idea that the wicked will continue to live eternally in hell, or that the Resurrection changed the Sabbath, or that man is immortal, etc.. So we have to look at what was brought in from outside of the scriptures, and being picked up although not its true meaning. The Mark of the Beast has been with us from almost the Early Church as
Paul, in his second letter to the Thessalonians, foretold the great apostasy which would result and we see it in the establishment of the Roman papal power. He declared that before the return of Christ would, "come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who exalteth himself above all that is called God;" Even at that early date he saw, creeping into the church, errors in belief that would prepare the way for the false teachings to come in, and history confirmed how it happen.

Little by little, and then more openly as it increased in strength and gained control of believers, paganism and idol worship came into the church. Almost imperceptibly the traditions and customs of Pagan Rome found their way into the Christian church from the former center of the Empire and spread. It had been held back by the persecutions by the Roman Emperors, but as persecution ceased, and Christianity was accepted, the true church laid aside the humble simplicity of Christ for the rites, sacraments and pomp of ancient Rome and the practices of pagan priests and ancient heathen worship with its Babylonian/Greek/Roman gods inscribed with Christians names.

Hi Hobie,
As an x-sda, I thoroughly relate to your understanding, in the body of your context.
However, when we review the visions given to John in Rev., we must keep in mind that John "saw" and "heard" from the angel, either by showing it to him and/or explaining it to him. Sometimes, he both saw and heard. My point is numerous times, it was both, or one or the other. In Rev. 13:11 John says that he "beheld [saw] another beast", and in vs. 14 John sees or hears that 2H beast "saying" to the world, that the people of the world should make an image to the beast. That image, that the people of world made, is the UN.

In verse 16, John reveals that the image causeth ALL [people]....to RECEIVE a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.
John did not hear the word "causeth", but rather "saw" what the image of the beast was doing, so that the "mark" should be applied to ALL people.

I think that all here can agree, that most of what John "saw" and "heard" was not exactly what he could relate it to, in the time in which he lived, of which was 2000 years ago.
Therefore, in many cases of his visions, he had nothing in his mind to relate them to, except that which he knew of from his own time period.

How else does one describe futuristic events, the "miracles and wonders" of "Science" in our day, except by only what they would personally know of in the era of 96AD.
John did understand and see slavery in the Roman Empire, and how the slaves were "marked". As how that was known in his mind, is how he related to the futuristic "mark of the beast".
Will it be exactly like John understood it?
Most likely not. But it will be very much in likeness.

How could you recognize slave in ancient Rome?

With the expansion of the Roman republic in the second and first century BCE intensified slavery. Some sources say that in the first century BCE in Italy alone there were 2-3 million slaves, which constituted 35-40% of the population on the Apennine peninsula.

imperiumromanum.pl

Digital ID as laid out under SDG-16 (Sustainable Development Goals-UN)

DIGITAL ID - As Laid Out Under SDG 16

THNX FOR WATCHING ~LIKE~SHARE~SUBSCRIBE~ ***LINKS*** https://d.tube/#!/c/joeysievert https://www.bitchute.com/channel/t0RAZBM0rVGQ/ http://www.freedomtube.social/cmpgm-killuminati1342021# https://truutube.com/channel/3649704358/KILLUMINATI1342 htt…

www.bitchute.com

 

[Illuminator]

Alexander Hislop is a proven liar by evangelical standards, and the OP (Hobie) is a Hislopite with no credibility. Fashioning weapons from scripture to attack Catholicism is a form of witchcraft. The Bible never says the historic Church would be overcome with evil, (attacked, yes, but evil shall not prevail, Jesus is not a liar.) it is a new doctrine invented by "Bible Christian" hate cults and anti-trinitarian trouble makers.

 

[Rockerduck]

Expect the unexpected when looking for the mark of the beast. Example cellphones and Cell phone watches. You can purchase with these. In less than 40 yrs. we went from house phones to everyone carrying a cellphone. Try leaving yours at home.

 

[Scott Downey]

Expect the unexpected when looking for the mark of the beast. Example cellphones and Cell phone watches. You can purchase with these. In less than 40 yrs. we went from house phones to everyone carrying a cellphone. Try leaving yours at home.

Technology has not only made it possible, but it has also made it probable. And the people will ease right into it. Except that the people must also worship the beast and his image. Some will refuse that. See the evil best worship occurs first before the mark is made into the people. If you refuse to worship the beast or the seemingly living beast image, you are killed v15.


11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.
12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives [f]those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.

15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has [g]the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

 

[Rockerduck]

Technology has not only made it possible, but it has also made it probable. And the people will ease right into it. Except that the people must also worship the beast and his image. Some will refuse that. See the evil best worship occurs first before the mark is made into the people. If you refuse to worship the beast or the seemingly living beast image, you are killed v15.


11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.
12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives [f]those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived.

15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has [g]the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

again, Expect the unexpected

 

[Illuminator]

Is the Catholic Church the Whore of Babylon?​

Listen to the audio version of this content
Some anti-Catholics claim the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon of Revelation 17 and 18. Dave Hunt, in his 1994 book, A Woman Rides the Beast, presents nine arguments to try to prove this. His claims are a useful summary of those commonly used by Fundamentalists, and an examination of them shows why they don’t work.

#1: Seven Hills​

Hunt argues that the Whore “is a city built on seven hills,” which he identifies as the seven hills of ancient Rome. This argument is based on Revelation 17:9, which states that the woman sits on seven mountains.

The Greek word in this passage is horos. Of the sixty-five occurrences of this word in the New Testament, only three are rendered “hill” by the King James Version. The remaining sixty-two are translated as “mountain” or “mount.” Modern Bibles have similar ratios. If the passage states that the Whore sits on “seven mountains,” it could refer to anything. Mountains are common biblical symbols, often symbolizing whole kingdoms (see Ps. 68:15; Dan. 2:35; Amos 4:1, 6:1; Obad. 8–21). The Whore’s seven mountains might be seven kingdoms she reigns over, or seven kingdoms with which she has something in common.

The number seven may be symbolic also, for it often represents completeness in the Bible. If so, the seven mountains might signify that the Whore reigns over all earth’s kingdoms.

Even if we accept that the word horos should be translated literally as “hill” in this passage, it still does not narrow us down to Rome. Other cities are known for having been built on seven hills as well.

Even if we grant that the reference is to Rome, which Rome are we talking about—pagan Rome or Christian Rome? As we will see, ancient, pagan Rome fits all of Hunt’s criteria as well as, or better than, Rome during the Christian centuries.

Now bring in the distinction between Rome and Vatican City—the city where the Catholic Church is headquartered—and Hunt’s claim becomes less plausible. Vatican City is not built on seven hills, but only one: Vatican Hill, which is not one of the seven upon which ancient Rome was built. Those hills are on the east side of the Tiber river; Vatican Hill is on the west.
continued...

 

[Illuminator]

#2: “Babylon”—What’s in a Name?​

Hunt notes that the Whore will be a city “known as Babylon.” This is based on Revelation 17:5, which says that her name is “Babylon the Great.”

The phrase “Babylon the great” (Greek: Babulon a megala) occurs five times in Revelation (14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2, and 18:21). Light is shed on its meaning when one notices that Babylon is referred to as “the great city” seven times in the book (16:19, 17:18; 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21). Other than these, there is only one reference to “the great city.” That passage is 11:8, which states that the bodies of God’s two witnesses “will lie in the street of the great city, which is allegorically called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified [emphasis added].”

“The great city” is symbolically called Sodom, a reference to Jerusalem, symbolically called “Sodom” in the Old Testament (see Isa. 1:10; Ezek. 16:1–3, 46–56). We also know Jerusalem is the “the great city” of Revelation 11:8 because the verse says it was “where [the] Lord was crucified.”

Revelation consistently speaks as if there were only one “great city” (“the great city”), suggesting that the great city of 11:8 is the same as the great city mentioned in the other seven texts—Babylon. Additional evidence for the identity of the two is the fact that both are symbolically named after great Old Testament enemies of the faith: Sodom, Egypt, and Babylon.

This suggests that Babylon the great may be Jerusalem, not Rome. Many Protestant and Catholic commentators have adopted this interpretation. On the other hand, early Church Fathers often referred to Rome as “Babylon,” but every reference was to pagan Rome, which martyred Christians.

continued...

 

[Illuminator]

#3: Commits Fornication​

Hunt tells us, “The woman is called a ‘whore’ (verse 1), with whom earthly kings ‘have committed fornication’ (verse 2). Against only two cities could such a charge be made: Jerusalem and Rome.”

Here Hunt admits that the prophets often referred to Jerusalem as a spiritual whore, suggesting that the Whore might be apostate Jerusalem. Ancient, pagan Rome also fits the description, since through the cult of emperor worship it also committed spiritual fornication with “the kings of the earth” (those nations it conquered).

To identify the Whore as Vatican City, Hunt interprets the fornication as alleged “unholy alliances” forged between Vatican City and other nations, but he fails to cite any reasons why the Vatican’s diplomatic relations with other nations are “unholy.”

He also confuses Vatican City with the city of Rome, and he neglects the fact that pagan Rome had “unholy alliances” with the kingdoms it governed (unholy because they were built on paganism and emperor worship).
continued...

 

[Illuminator]

#4: Clothed in Purple and Red​

Hunt states, “She [the Whore] is clothed in ‘purple and scarlet’ (verse 4), the colors of the Catholic clergy.” He then cites the Catholic Encyclopedia to show that bishops wear certain purple vestments and cardinals wear certain red vestments.

Hunt ignores the obvious symbolic meaning of the colors. Purple symbolizes repentance, and red honors the blood of Christ and the Christian martyrs.

Hunt neglects to remind his readers that God commanded that scarlet yarn and wool be used in liturgical ceremonies (Lev. 14:4, 6, 49–52; Num. 19:6), and that God commanded that the priests’ vestments be made with purple and scarlet yarn (Ex. 28:4–8, 15, 33; 39:1–8, 24, 29).

#5: Possesses Great Wealth​

Hunt states, “[The Whore’s] incredible wealth next caught John’s eye. She was ‘decked with gold and precious stones and pearls . . . ’ [Rev. 17:4].” The problem is that, regardless of what it had in the past, the modern Vatican is not fantastically wealthy. In fact, it has run a budget deficit in most recent years and has an annual budget only around the size of that of the Archdiocese of Chicago. Furthermore, wealth was much more in character with pagan Rome or apostate Jerusalem, both key economic centers.

#6: A Golden Cup​

Hunt states that the Whore “has ‘a golden cup [chalice] in her hand, full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication.’” This is another reference to Revelation 17:4. Then he states that the “Church is known for its many thousands of gold chalices around the world.”

To make the Whore’s gold cup suggestive of the Eucharistic chalice, Hunt inserts the word “chalice” in square brackets, though the Greek word here is the ordinary word for cup (potarion), which appears thirty-three times in the New Testament and is always translated “cup.”

He ignores the fact that the Catholic chalice is used in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper—a ritual commanded by Christ (Luke 22:19–20; 1 Cor. 11:24–25); he ignores the fact that the majority of Eucharistic chalices Catholics use are not made out of gold, but other materials, such as brass, silver, glass, and even earthenware; he ignores the fact that gold liturgical vessels and utensils have been part of the true religion ever since ancient Israel—again at the command of God (Ex. 25:38–40, 37:23–24; Num. 31:50–51; 2 Chron. 24:14); and he again uses a literal interpretation, according to which the Whore’s cup is not a single symbol applying to the city of Rome, but a collection of many literal cups used in cities throughout the world. But Revelation tells us that it’s the cup of God’s wrath that is given to the Whore (Rev. 14:10; cf. Rev. 18:6). This has nothing to do with Eucharistic chalices.

.continued...

 

[Illuminator]

#7: The Mother of Harlots​

Now for Hunt’s most hilarious argument: “John’s attention is next drawn to the inscription on the woman’s forehead: ‘THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH’ (verse 5, [Hunt’s emphasis]). Sadly enough, the Roman Catholic Church fits that description as precisely as she fits the others. Much of the cause is due to the unbiblical doctrine of priestly celibacy,” which has “made sinners of the clergy and harlots out of those with whom they secretly cohabit.”

Priestly celibacy is not a doctrine but a discipline—a discipline in the Latin Rite of the Church—and even this rite has not always been mandatory. This discipline can scarcely be unbiblical, since Hunt himself says, “The great apostle Paul was a celibate and recommended that life to others who wanted to devote themselves fully to serving Christ.”

Hunt has again lurched to an absurdly literal interpretation. He should interpret the harlotry of the Whore’s daughters as the same as their mother’s, which is why she is called their mother in the first place. This would make it spiritual or political fornication or the persecution of Christian martyrs (see Rev. 17:2, 6, 18:6). Instead, Hunt gives the interpretation of the daughters as literal, earthly prostitutes committing literal, earthly fornication.

If Hunt did not have a fixation on the King James Version, he would notice another point that identifies the daughters’ harlotries with that of their mother: The same Greek word (porna) is used for both mother and daughters. The King James Version translates this word as “whore” whenever it refers to the mother, but as “harlot” when it refers to the daughters. Modern translations render it consistently. John sees the “great harlot” (Rev. 17:1, 15, 16; 19:2) who is “the mother of harlots” (17:5). The harlotries of the daughters must be the same as the mother’s, which Hunt admits is not literal sex!

#8: Sheds the Blood of Saints​

Hunt states, “John next notices that the woman is drunk—not with alcohol but with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus . . . [cf. verse 6].” He then advances charges of brutality and killing by the Inquisitions, supposed forced conversions of nations, and even the Nazi holocaust.

This section of the book abounds with historical errors, not the least of which is his implication that the Church endorses the forced conversion of nations. The Church condemned forced conversions as early as the third century, and has formally condemned them on repeated occasions, as in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 160, 1738, 1782, 2106–7).

But pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem do fit the description of a city drunk with the blood of saints and the martyrs of Jesus. And since they were notorious persecutors of Christians, the original audience would have automatically thought of one of these two as the city that persecutes Christians, not an undreamed-of Christian Rome that was centuries in the future.

continued...

 

[Illuminator]

#9: Reigns over Kings​

For his last argument, Hunt states, “Finally, the angel reveals that the woman ‘is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth’ (verse 18). Is there such a city? Yes, and again only one: Vatican City.”

This is a joke. Vatican City has no power over other nations; it certainly does not reign over them. In fact, the Vatican’s very existence has been threatened in the past two centuries by Italian nationalism.

Hunt appeals to power the popes once had over Christian political rulers, but at that time there was no Vatican City. The Vatican only became a separate city in 1929.

The modern city of Rome is only a very minor political force. If the reign is a literal, political one, then pagan Rome fulfills the requirement far better than Christian Rome ever did.

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