Don’t Be Like The Five Foolish Virgins = Matthew 25;1-5

[FaithWillDo]

I’m having a hard time with your post. It is way over my head. If I understand correctly you are suggesting the Samaritan woman is just as much a parable as the ten virgin parable?

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You said:
If I understand correctly you are suggesting the Samaritan woman is just as much a parable as the ten virgin parable?

I am saying that the woman at the well is a "type". A type is an actual event that teaches spiritual truths. Like all of scripture which is written in the spiritual language of Christ, it uses spiritual symbols. A parable is a fictional story that uses spiritual symbols.

Consider these verses:

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The words of Christ are "spirit" and those spiritual words have meanings which are different than what man's wisdom teaches:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The Holy Spirit teaches us the meanings of the "spirit words" which are used in scripture. Paul even said that he teaches by using the same words. These words are spiritual symbols. To understand their meanings, Paul says to "compare spiritual things (words) with spiritual (words).

Here is an easy example:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. However, if we understand this verse literally, that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying.

Is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using the word SWORD to teach us a spiritual message. To understand what this spiritual symbol represents, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture. In other words, we must compare spiritual things with spiritual.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edge sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From the verses presented above, it is easy to understand that the spiritual word SWORD represents the Word of God who is Christ.

Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who take up the Sword (those who are “called out”), must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Sword. This death is a necessary part of the conversion process which happens when the Word of God (Christ, the Sword) comes to a person and gives them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of Fire (judgment of the carnal nature):

The judgment portion of "conversion" is what this verse below is teaching:

Isa 66:16 For by fire (judgment) and by his sword (Word of God) will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

After a person has been slain, their carnal nature (Old Man) has been judged and destroyed. This destruction is presented in Revelation chapter 18 as the judgment of Mystery Babylon the Great Harlot (worsened carnal nature). Upon conversion, she is "taken" and cast into the Lake of Fire and is quickly destroyed.

That is what this verse below is teaching:

Mat 24:41 Two women (represents one believer) shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The phrase "grinding at the mill" is a symbol which represents that the believer is "working" and has not entered into the rest of Christ.

The symbol "two women" represents one believer after they have received the Latter Rain. One of the women is a child of God and one is a child of the Devil. Each child has a spiritual nature. The child of the Devil's spiritual nature is carnal and has been made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45) by the spirit of anti-Christ . This worsen spiritual nature is also called the Old Earth. The child of God's spiritual nature is the one that is governed by the Holy Spirit. It is called the New Earth.

When Christ comes to an Elect believer to convert them, He will first pour out the Latter Rain. This will give the believer a new birth as a child of God. This will give them a new spiritual nature. To complete their conversion though, the Day of the Lord will follow which will "take" (remove) the believer's old carnal nature and cast it into the Lake of Fire for destruction. After the carnal nature within the believer is destroyed, the believer will be governed by their new spiritual nature (New Earth) that the Holy Spirit gives them. This spiritual process is called conversion.

The conversion process is what Peter is teaching here by using the symbols Old Earth and New Earth:

2Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up... 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The symbols are used here, too, in describing the Bride of Christ (the Elect) who has been converted:

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Note: The spiritual symbol "Old Heaven" and "New Heaven" represent the carnal mind and the mind of Christ, respectively.

Christ teaches in His spiritual language so that only converted believers who have been given "eyes that can see" can understand. For unconverted believers, He teaches in this manner so that they cannot understand (Christ remains "veiled") so that they will "fall backward, and be broken, and snared (by Satan) and taken":

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Can you see how Christ teaches His truth by using spiritual symbols (words)?

I spent a lot of time of this subject because it is vital in understanding God's Word - this includes the parable of the Ten Virgins & the "type" taught by the woman at the well.

I will read the rest of your post and will respond to it in a separate post (as the the Lord leads).

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

I’m having a hard time with your post. It is way over my head. If I understand correctly you are suggesting the Samaritan woman is just as much a parable as the ten virgin parable? I see them as different. One Jesus spoke to give an example. The other (the woman by the well) something He encountered on His journey. You said if it was a literal woman then she, would have to be saved before her death, and it would have been when the gospel went to the gentiles. Isn’t that the point though? His first preached to the Jews then as prophesied, the gospel would be preached to all nations? I do see connections to the woman by the well and the ten virgins. Mostly in who gives the Light. The oil. The meat. Who distributes and supplies the poor in spirit all things pertaining to Life. To say or suggest her as not a literal woman .. Jesus said “I must go” when He said He must go that way, through Samaria …is to take away the significance (to me) that He loved the woman. BUT I can’t knock your saying the woman by the well teaches or reveals Spiritual things, unseen things.. because to me everything Jesus encounters did. Like when He compared the natural birth and a spiritual birth in helping with “you must be born again”. You said Jacob’s well is the Law, that they will all go back to drinking of. I was thinking of it as His showing a literal well that man dug …and speaking of a well not dug by mens hands but a well coming from God, the supply of Living water coming out from God which to me it is Christ that comes out from the Father. I can see (though)your suggestion of Jacobs well in “wisdom” …where Jacobs well speaks of wisdom that is earthly. Devilish. Full of every evil work. Can see this as the water from Jacobs well that one drinks from and dies. Yet then we are instructed that the Wisdom which comes from God, the Living Water, is first pure…

Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

16 For where envying and strife is, there isconfusion and every evil work.

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

The verse of “Wake up, you who sleepest, wake up unto righteousness and Christ will give you Light.” …I still think the ten virgins, all who slept… they must have heard of His coming because that is the parable getting ready “for the Bridegroom comes” …wake up unto righteousness has to be (to me) wake up unto righteousness; made “Alive unto God” as Paul spoke of too… “Alive unto God” but if her husband for dead, she is free to marry another. Same way you have been made dead to the law of unrighteousness “by the body of Christ to bring forth fruit unto God” …we are talking wisdom in the parable …the wise and the foolish. I can hear Paul’s “you think I should praise or commend you. I praise you not.” Those considered to be wise and praised and commendable in the parable. One has but won’t give to the other. One has not, but ask and is not given unto. To me that is “what the kingdom will be likened unto in the last days”. If we are speaking of wisdom that is earthly and Wisdom which comes from God…which is “No. there won’t be enough for you and me.” …to me the parable just nailed (I mean in regards to significance) the woman by the well half gentile and half Jew. The whole squabble is there is not enough for the Gentiles also, it is only for the Jew. Which to me is the whole point of what angered God which is totally avoiding “love you neighbor as you love yourself. give (bless)those who curse you and hate you. Be kind to the unkindness. Be merciful to the unmerciful. If your enemy is hungry then feed him.” If someone asks for oil because their lamp is going out. Don’t shut the door on them, keep the door open. If you have a flask full…why are you afraid to pour the whole flask out into their lamp? Do you not know yet that the Lord will reward you with Life? Why are you afraid there won’t be enough for you and him? When your sufficiency comes from God and not Jacobs well? To me the whole parable of the ten virgins is to rebuke those wise in their own wisdom …because we say the same thing concerning “meat” is for those mature. yet Paul tells another way. He doesn’t boast in “meat” for some and “milk” for babes….but instead speaks of preparing them for and to handle the “meat”. I’ve encountered on here “you can’t have the meat” it belongs to us who are mature. ..then behave mature. Feed me milk —like a nurse maid to a child—unto I can handle the “meat”. Do not covet the meat for your own status as to be one called mature…if you can’t even handle charity nor love.

Dear VictoryinJesus,

I liked most of your comments in the first paragraph.

In the next paragraph, you said:

The verse of “Wake up, you who sleepest, wake up unto righteousness and Christ will give you Light.” …I still think the ten virgins, all who slept… they must have heard of His coming because that is the parable getting ready “for the Bridegroom comes” …wake up unto righteousness has to be (to me) wake up unto righteousness; made “Alive unto God” as Paul spoke of too… “Alive unto God” but if her husband for dead, she is free to marry another.

The "wake up" call that all Ten Virgins hear is the call of Elijah to repent. John the Baptist made this call to the entire Nation of Israel. For those who responded to the call and repented of their "works", the pathway for Christ to come was made "straight" (faith alone). The crooked pathway is by "works" and is what Satan's "another gospel" teaches. That is why Satan is called the crooked serpent.

Since the Wise Virgins (the Elect) will respond to the call of Elijah, the pathway will be made straight for the Bridegroom to come to them - just as the pathway was made straight by the Apostles' repentance. Christ came to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost and poured out the Latter Rain. This is when their new birth occurred (Marriage of the Lamb). The Foolish Virgins will not repent (or they will at first and then turn back). They simply were not chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved as a First Fruit. That is the only reason they did not have the extra flask of oil.

As for why the Wise Virgins won't share the Latter Rain (extra oil) with the Foolish Virgins, they won't, because without it, they too would not be able to continue onto the Lord. The extra oil is not about sharing "meat" (truth). It is about salvation.

After the Wise are converted though, they will most certainly share with those who are in need:

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 36 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 37 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 38 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 39 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The Wise Virgins are the sheep. They will share the meat (truth of God) with those who "hunger" for truth and they will give drink (New Wine) to those who "thirst" for righteousness. They will cloth the naked with white raiment and visit the sick (lost) and those who are in prison (captive to sin). However, they can only do this after they are converted. Before that time, they had no ability to spiritually help anyone. They, like the Foolish Virgins, were spiritually blind and asleep (not saved).

Joe

 

[face2face]

As for why the Wise Virgins won't share the Latter Rain (extra oil) with the Foolish Virgins, they won't, because without it, they too would not be able to continue onto the Lord. The extra oil is not about sharing "meat" (truth). It is about salvation.

You cannot transfer character to which the oil relates.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The "wake up" call that all Ten Virgins hear is the call of Elijah to repent. John the Baptist made this call to the entire Nation of Israel. For those who responded to the call and repented of their "works", the pathway for Christ to come was made "straight" (faith alone). The crooked pathway is by "works" and is what Satan's "another gospel" teaches. That is why Satan is called the crooked serpent.

Agree…love the question who can make that which is formed crooked straight again? And

0 ¶ And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

11 ¶ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

But why does He tell His disciples when they want to call down fire on one who speaks of Christ but is not with or of them? He rebukes them saying “you know not what spirit you are of. The Son comes not to destroy but to save.”

Since the Wise Virgins (the Elect) will respond to the call of Elijah, the pathway will be made straight for the Bridegroom to come to them - just as the pathway was made straight by the Apostles' repentance. Christ came to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost and poured out the Latter Rain. This is when their new birth occurred (Marriage of the Lamb). The Foolish Virgins will not repent (or they will at first and then turn back). They simply were not chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved as a First Fruit. That is the only reason they did not have the extra flask of oil.

Still disagree that the foolish were simply not chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved as a First Fruit. To me, I think we have it backwards of who He has chosen from the foundation of the world. We might say He has chosen the wise in the parable. Based off one word “wise” it doesn’t matter if they are converted, born again of God “wise”… that one word “wise” is enough to call them the chosen of God. Not those which are “foolish” (and without strength)

¶ For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, (not the wisdom of the wise in the parable to me, but the Wisdom of God which is given; the nature of the Wisdom of God) and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

How do we read the parable of the ten virgins …and then totally ignore who He said is chosen? When did He confound the wise by the foolish things? The “base things” “the despised” …to me He is walking it out right —before those who the parable was given—then when He tells them (who are wise in their own conceit) the parable. Even going as far in the OT to prophesy of “I was found of those who sought Me not.” I will be God unto people who were no people. (Or something like that, going off memory there.) yet He tells the parable, yes with Spiritual under currents and we say God did not chose the foolish to confound the wise. He did not choose those base things. To bring to nothing the wisdom which of men. He did not chose The despised. Those reject and kept out of the kingdom of God. (Not only do they not enter but they prevent you from entering in). Instead we side with the wise in the parable on casting them without (be joyful when they cast you out, for they cast Him outside also) …right before Jesus Christ suffered without the gate to prepare a people(the foolish, the sinners, those sick and in need of a physician, those weak and without strength) by His own blood.

As for why the Wise Virgins won't share the Latter Rain (extra oil) with the Foolish Virgins, they won't, because without it, they too would not be able to continue onto the Lord. The extra oil is not about sharing "meat" (truth). It is about salvation.

Well that is just crazy to me. If they are not converted yet and do not know the call is when you give to the least of these, you give unto Me. Then they are still wise in regards to earthly wisdom. Because they haven’t been converted yet, or born again yet then what is their flask full of? The wisdom that is earthly? Or the Wisdom the comes from God? What is the question in thinking you are wise yet not knowing what you ought to know…better it is to become a fool so that you become wise in that One thing you ought to know? To me it is you ought to know Christ by His Fruit. That is why I have a hard time buying the wise in the parable..by the fruit. It doesn’t appear Wise(heavenly)…but instead wise (earthly). So which does He take the foolish to confound? That wisdom which comes from God. Or that wisdom which is earthly and comes from men? I realize you won’t agree. But I’m persuaded I would rather be the fool in the parable. Pretty certain of it. Does that make me a fool? Yes. But that is the point. I don’t see fruit the fruit of Christ in that which we consider indeed wise.

After the Wise are converted though, they will most certainly share with those who are in need:

That is the point. “You will know them by their fruit.”

After the Wise are converted though, they will most certainly share with those who are in need:

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 36 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 37 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 38 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 39 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The Wise Virgins are the sheep. They will share the meat (truth of God) with those who "hunger" for truth and they will give drink (New Wine) to those who "thirst" for righteousness. They will cloth the naked with white raiment and visit the sick (lost) and those who are in prison (captive to sin). However, they can only do this after they are converted. Before that time, they had no ability to spiritually help anyone. They, like the Foolish Virgins, were spiritually blind and asleep (not saved).

Exactly. What I don’t understand is praising “not converted yet” with its action or works uet “The Wise Virgins are the sheep. They will share the meat (truth of God) with those who "hunger" for truth and they will give drink (New Wine) to those who "thirst" for righteousness. They will cloth the naked with white raiment and visit the sick (lost) and those who are in prison (captive to sin).”

I suggest the opposite. It is the foolish he takes, those weak and without strength (do you hear that…in regards to lacking enough oil to light their path and our lamps (are going out)…again “those who are without strength” …that will do the above “giving water to those who thirst, food to those who hunger, clothing to those who are naked, and visits those imprisoned” consider “We love Him because He first loved us while we were yet dead in our sins and without strength” and if that isn’t enough to support “He has chosen the foolish things to confound the wise” …I can’t find the verse right now but something to the effect of He will take it to a people who will bear fruit.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Agree…love the question who can make that which is formed crooked straight again? And

0 ¶ And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

11 ¶ And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

But why does He tell His disciples when they want to call down fire on one who speaks of Christ but is not with or of them? He rebukes them saying “you know not what spirit you are of. The Son comes not to destroy but to save.”


Still disagree that the foolish were simply not chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved as a First Fruit. To me, I think we have it backwards of who He has chosen from the foundation of the world. We might say He has chosen the wise in the parable. Based off one word “wise” it doesn’t matter if they are converted, born again of God “wise”… that one word “wise” is enough to call them the chosen of God. Not those which are “foolish” (and without strength)

¶ For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, (not the wisdom of the wise in the parable to me, but the Wisdom of God which is given; the nature of the Wisdom of God) and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

How do we read the parable of the ten virgins …and then totally ignore who He said is chosen? When did He confound the wise by the foolish things? The “base things” “the despised” …to me He is walking it out right —before those who the parable was given—then when He tells them (who are wise in their own conceit) the parable. Even going as far in the OT to prophesy of “I was found of those who sought Me not.” I will be God unto people who were no people. (Or something like that, going off memory there.) yet He tells the parable, yes with Spiritual under currents and we say God did not chose the foolish to confound the wise. He did not choose those base things. To bring to nothing the wisdom which of men. He did not chose The despised. Those reject and kept out of the kingdom of God. (Not only do they not enter but they prevent you from entering in). Instead we side with the wise in the parable on casting them without (be joyful when they cast you out, for they cast Him outside also) …right before Jesus Christ suffered without the gate to prepare a people(the foolish, the sinners, those sick and in need of a physician, those weak and without strength) by His own blood.


Well that is just crazy to me. If they are not converted yet and do not know the call is when you give to the least of these, you give unto Me. Then they are still wise in regards to earthly wisdom. Because they haven’t been converted yet, or born again yet then what is their flask full of? The wisdom that is earthly? Or the Wisdom the comes from God? What is the question in thinking you are wise yet not knowing what you ought to know…better it is to become a fool so that you become wise in that One thing you ought to know? To me it is you ought to know Christ by His Fruit. That is why I have a hard time buying the wise in the parable..by the fruit. It doesn’t appear Wise(heavenly)…but instead wise (earthly). So which does He take the foolish to confound? That wisdom which comes from God. Or that wisdom which is earthly and comes from men? I realize you won’t agree. But I’m persuaded I would rather be the fool in the parable. Pretty certain of it. Does that make me a fool? Yes. But that is the point. I don’t see fruit the fruit of Christ in that which we consider indeed wise.

That is the point. “You will know them by their fruit.”

Exactly. What I don’t understand is praising “not converted yet” with its action or works of The Wise Virgins are the sheep. They will share the meat (truth of God) with those who "hunger" for truth and they will give drink (New Wine) to those who "thirst" for righteousness. They will cloth the naked with white raiment and visit the sick (lost) and those who are in prison (captive to sin).

Still, I suggest the opposite. It is the foolish he takes, those weak and without strength (do you hear that…in regards to lacking enough oil and our lamps are going out)…again “those who are without strength” …that will do the above “giving water to those who thirst, food to those who hunger, clothing to those who are naked, and visit those imprisoned” consider “We love Him because He first loved us while we were yet still dead in our sins” and if that isn’t enough to support “He has chosen the foolish things to confound the wise” …I can’t find the verse right now but something to the effect of He will take it to a people who will bear fruit.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I just wanted to respond to a couple of your comments. Concerning the "wise" and the "foolish" virgins, the "wise virgins" are spiritually wise and the "foolish virgins" are spiritually foolish. The parable is not talking about the "wise" of this world who Christ will confound.

Also, the Wise Virgins have not been converted and won't be until they attend the Marriage of the Lamb. The marriage will then be followed by the Marriage Supper and then by the Day of the Lord.

The Wise Virgins have the extra flask of oil to show that they are chosen. When the call of Elijah is sounded, the Wise Virgins are the only ones who will repent of their works and because they do, they will be "ready" for the Bridegroom to come. When He comes, He will bring them salvation.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The parable is teaching on the pathway to salvation the Elect will travel. To teach this pathway, Christ is using the marriage analogy which He uses in many places of scripture. The Marriage of the Lamb represents the moment of salvation. The Marriage Supper follows because only the Bride (child of God) can be fed the truth of Christ. Mankind cannot understand the truth of Christ and they never will. After the believer has received the truth, the Day of the Lord will arrive and bring judgment to the carnality of the believer. After the believer's carnality is removed and destroyed, the believer will be converted. This is what Revelation chapter 19 is teaching and it, too, uses the marriage analogy.

Below are the major steps the Elect will take to travel the pathway to salvation:

• The receiving of the Early Rain of the Spirit and entering the church.
• The coming of the spirit of anti-Christ to the believer and the consuming of leavened bread.
• Falling away, the Abomination of Desolation and becoming a Man of Sin.
• Hearing and answering the call of Elijah so that the pathway for Christ is made straight.
• The Second Coming of Christ when He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit.
• Spiritual blindness healed.
• Marriage Supper when the believer consumes milk, bread, meat and New Wine.
• Christ appears and gathers the believer to dwell with Him in heaven.
• Judgment of the Day of the Lord.
• First Resurrection and Conversion.
• The time of testing.
• The bodily resurrection at the end of the age.

The pathway to salvation includes a time of "great tribulation" (time under Satan's influence) and is why Christ is "longsuffering" with His Elect. It is not a quick and pain free process to be born as a child of God.

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I just wanted to respond to a couple of your comments. Concerning the "wise" and the "foolish" virgins, the "wise virgins" are spiritually wise and the "foolish virgins" are spiritually foolish. The parable is not talking about the "wise" of this world who Christ will confound.

I’m suggesting; The “wise virgins” are spiritually rich.
The “foolish virgins” as spiritually destitute. Spiritually Poor. (We know this much because Jesus tells them a parable of those destitute and poor in spirit. Hard to deny they are not “poor in spirit” because they lack oil.)

You say they are not the “wise” Christ will confound. Still, I’m not getting it. How do they have the Wisdom of God which comes from God, instead of the wisdom which comes from men? When you said they are not converted yet. If I understand correctly yet they have received a down payment of the Spirit? Of The Wisdom which comes from God (not to be destroyed) and not from men. Which “The Revelation of Jesus Christ” teaches. But isn’t the down payment that you bear fruit, adopted, that you be as the children of God.

You said their wisdom…the five “wise” virgins is NOT the “wise” Jesus Christ spoke of that he would confound by the foolish things, those base things to bring down and bring low the wisdom of men that exalts itself above The Wisdom of God. You say that isn’t them in the parable Jesus Christ spoke of.(when he spoke of the wise and the foolish virgin, totally neglect “I have become a fool for Christ, that the power be of God and not of men.” True they had nothing to give them. That much is true if it is the wisdom that comes and is given of men. But the Wisdom that comes from God…is there really nothing to give or not enough to share?

No not the “wise” trusting in Jacobs well. You spoke on the parable of the woman by the well as the old and the New. To me if we want to speak of the old things out from Jacobs well… they (the wise virgins) connect better to those “wise” who “no. Unless there be not enough for you and me also”. But we say this is not the wise of the wisdom of men which will be confounded? “There is not enough for you and me also”. If Jesus Christ once said to us “no, There is not enough for you and me.” Then we would not be talking about the one who became poor that we be made rich. I do get your saying that isn’t the point but the timing they won’t become poor that others be made rich until later on (correct?) when they receive more than a down payment but more. they are still those who say they are rich and have no need of anything while the foolish say they have become destitute which lack. How do they say they are rich and have no need of anything? Well..they have their oil and extra at that. Their down payment is so much that they even have extra to spare. But fear not enough. To me this is the rich man that says He has been increased in goods…but what does he do “builds him a bigger storehouse”. Ironically Jesus Christ is the only one who is so increased in goods that He has to build a bigger storehouse to House it all. That which is Built up and grows on the Foundation of Christ.

I get you disagree. But I’m struggling also with your time table of what you believe. To be honest I don’t think you’re even considering any points I make if it doesn’t fit in with the time table. I do agree with you on types teaching spiritual things. I can see this in the man who was torment by a demon and tossed back and forth from the fire and the water. Thrashed in and out from one to another. (A double -minded man unstable in all his ways, in torment tossed in fire to in water) whom Christ helped. I think that one fits well with what you said about the two wells, and the Old and the New. And how it is hard to want the New when you have tasted drank of the old. But not impossible.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

See this different I think. If I understand you correctly this is appearing a second time in the time table you showed. But to me His appearing a second to Bring salvation to those waiting for him…is what Paul experienced when Paul stood before those calling him a reprobate and as one who fails, accusing him of Christ not speaking in Paul…Paul forbears, suffers their injustice not laying their sins upon them but patiently awaiting Christ to be formed and appear in them a second time unto salvation …they have witnessed the cross, but they have yet to witness the fruit of the Spirit of God. Paul says “I trust you will see even though you don’t see (Him) yet” ….Christ appearance a second time in them …Paul intreats and forewarns them “to do no wrong and to do what is right, be perfected, made whole”. To me it is a share event between Christ speaking in Paul towards them who they don’t acknowledge or see or hear… yet as Christ also is formed in them and brings forth put the Fruit of God in them …their eyes open to see what they don’t see which is Christ…both Paul and them witness His appearing a second time unto Salvation. An event between them. The work of God in Paul toward them, and the work or bring forth of the fruit of God in them. To me that is the Salvation of God that He can make even your enemies be at peace with you. That to me is the salvation of God that He bears fruit unto Life, Fruit unto Salvation where it says without Christ …no man will or can see God. Profound is they do not see and cannot see the Spirit of God in Paul…this only comes by the Spirit of God to see that which is unseen, yet to me Paul (by the Spirit in Paul, Christ) sees The unseen, the hidden man of the heart in them. And it is by Faith and belief in Christ that Paul stands before them persuaded better things of them…minding the things that belong to the Spirit of God …in them. Not after those things of the flesh, but after Christ. Encouraging, edifying, perfecting of the body, building up the House of God. That House be strengthened and made sound and sure upon the foundation of Christ.

I get that sounds like hogwash or insanity because that goes against “His appearance a second time unto Salvation.”
But Paul spoke openly of all the times God delivered (saved) him out from every evil trouble. I’m still waiting on His appearing a second time unto Salvation. I read about it but to be honest I haven’t seen His appearing a second time unto Salvation. I see no fruit of the Spirit of God. Anywhere. So does it only speak of the Jews or His elect, for a distant appearance a second time unto Salvation. Maybe. But Paul sure was waiting on Jesus Christ appearances in them a second time unto completion and perfection and salvation.

The pathway to salvation includes a time of "great tribulation" (time under Satan's influence) and is why Christ is "longsuffering" with His Elect. It is not a quick and pain free process to be born as a child of God.

Why let Satan loose for a little season …if not for

Share the Sufferings of Christ​ 12 ¶ Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. (Again Paul kept saying that my joy be made full in you!) “that you may have Life abundantly”

14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. (The exchange between Paul and those cursing him by saying Christ does not speak in you, you are a reprobate. As one who fails) on Paul’s part “He is gloried” … “brothers I am persuaded of better things of you, do no evil, do no wrong even though I be seen of you as a reprobate…I trust you will see we are not as those who fail…be you reconciled unto God, be you made complete, be you made whole. We will “be happy” to be weak that you be made strong and this we do that “He is glorified”)

 

[FaithWillDo]

I’m suggesting; The “wise virgins” are spiritually rich.

Dear VictoryinJesus,

I will try to be more specific on my points.

You said:
You say they (the Foolish Virgins) are not the “wise” Christ will confound.

No, the Foolish Virgins represent the "wise" who Christ will confound. They also represent the "many" who have been called into the church and who profess to be teaching the truth of Christ but are not. Since they were not given the "extra oil", they will die professing the false truth of Satan and will continue following another Jesus, another gospel and another spirit (spirit of anti-Christ).

The Wise Virgins will "sleep" in darkness with them for a time, but because of the extra oil, they will respond to the "call" (call of Elijah) and repent. This will make them ready for the Bridegroom to come.

You said:
I get you disagree. But I’m struggling also with your time table of what you believe. To be honest I don’t think you’re even considering any points I make if it doesn’t fit in with the time table. I do agree with you on types teaching spiritual things. I can see this in the man who was torment by a demon and tossed back and forth from the fire and the water. Thrashed in and out from one to another. (A double -minded man unstable in all his ways, in torment tossed in fire to in water) whom Christ helped. I think that one fits well with what you said about the two wells, and the Old and the New. And how it is hard to want the New when you have tasted drank of the old. But not impossible.

The scriptures you point out do agree with the "timetable" I have presented. However, you understand those verses differently than I do.

You are right that the man who was tormented by the demon is a "type" which teaches us truth. And He does represent a "double-minded man". A double minded man is a "called out" believer who has earnest of the Spirit and the spirit of anti-Christ. They are trying to serve two masters (Christ and Satan). The old well represents the Law which is what is taught by the spirit of anti-Christ. The Law is based on the works of man and not on the works of Christ. It is the Law that condemns mankind in fire. The "water of life" is the Holy Spirit. Those who are under the New Covenant are no longer under the Old Covenant and therefore, are not judged. When a believer has both the Holy Spirit and the spirit of anti-Christ, they will be toss into water and into fire. That is what the man with the unclean spirit represents.

Since the tormented man also represents one of the Elect, Christ will give the man the Latter Rain, followed by judgment. The judgment portion is shown in this verse:

Mat 17:18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

After the spirit leaves, the man is converted. The verses which show the beast/false prophet being cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev 19:20) represent the same event as Mat 17:18 teaches. It is also the same event taught in Mat 24:40 which two men are in the field, one is taken (the unclean spirit) and one is left (the child of God).

All the teachings of Christ concerning the pathway to salvation (here a little and there a little) fit into certain portions of the pathway. Once a person fully knows the pathway, it is much easier to fit the pieces together.

You said:
See this different I think. If I understand you correctly this is appearing a second time in the time table you showed. But to me His appearing a second to Bring salvation to those waiting for him…is what Paul experienced when Paul stood before those calling him a reprobate and as one who fails, accusing him of Christ not speaking in Paul…

Paul already experienced the second coming of Christ when he received the Latter Rain in Damascus. That event occurred after Paul experienced being blind and was unable to eat or drink for three days. Paul's 3 days in Damascus represented the same time period when the Ten Virgins slept at night.

You then said:
Paul forbears, suffers their injustice not laying their sins upon them but patiently awaiting Christ to be formed and appear in them a second time unto salvation …they have witnessed the cross, but they have yet to witness the fruit of the Spirit of God. Paul says “I trust you will see even though you don’t see (Him) yet” ….Christ appearance a second time in them.

Yes, the Early Rain leaves a new believer spiritually blind and they can only see Christ in the "flesh" at the cross. That is what this means here:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

When Christ comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Early Rain, Christ will only "appear" to a new believer in the flesh at the cross (means carnally).

On the Damascus Road, Paul's blindness symbolized a new believer's spiritual blindness who must be led by the hand. In this condition, the new believer will only be able to see Christ (God's Word) carnally. That is what Paul is saying here:

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

The second time Christ appears to a called out believer will be when He pours out the Latter Rain for their salvation. This is when Christ heals a believer's spiritual blindness. Christ will then "appear" to them spiritually unto salvation. After they are "born again", they will start producing spiritual fruit.

The time a called out believer waits for the second coming of Christ is typed by Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought. Much happens during that time of drought and the believer ends up becoming a man of sin who is trying to serve two masters.

You said:
I’m still waiting on His appearing a second time unto Salvation. I read about it but to be honest I haven’t seen His appearing a second time unto Salvation. I see no fruit of the Spirit of God. Anywhere. So does it only speak of the Jews or His elect, for a distant appearance a second time unto Salvation. Maybe. But Paul sure was waiting on Jesus Christ appearances in them a second time unto completion and perfection and salvation.

This is an amazing statement you have made above. I have never hear anyone on the many forums I have visited over the years make such a statement. To realize your need for the second coming and the Latter Rain is one of the "signs of the times" that only the "few" will "see".

Christ said this about it:

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

When Christ is ready to "appear" a second time to baptize one of His Elect with the Holy Spirit, He will cause them to pray for it. This is what Paul was praying for even though scripture does not provide those details in the scripture:

Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

Ananias is a type for Christ. Paul must have repented earlier because Ananias had to travel on "Straight" Street to come to Paul. When Ananias arrived, Paul received the Latter Rain and the scales fell off his eyes (spiritual blindness was healed). Paul was then told to eat "meat".

This scripture below applies to the Elect (a son) and is what Christ will cause His Elect to pray for when He is ready to give them the Latter Rain:

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

When Christ came to me a second time on Oct 8th, 2005, He caused me to pray a similar prayer. He came to me three days later and my world was turned upside down. I could see the Abomination of Desolation, the man of sin was revealed to me and my sun and moon were darkened.

My conversion testimony is presented on my website www.greatmysteryofchrist.com if you would like to read it.

I encourage you to pray for understanding and the Latter Rain. Remember, the Lord is the giver of good gifts.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Why let Satan loose for a little season …if not for

Share the Sufferings of Christ​ 12 ¶ Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. (Again Paul kept saying that my joy be made full in you!) “that you may have Life abundantly”

14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. (The exchange between Paul and those cursing him by saying Christ does not speak in you, you are a reprobate. As one who fails) on Paul’s part “He is gloried” … “brothers I am persuaded of better things of you, do no evil, do no wrong even though I be seen of you as a reprobate…I trust you will see we are not as those who fail…be you reconciled unto God, be you made complete, be you made whole. We will “be happy” to be weak that you be made strong and this we do that “He is glorified”)

Dear VictoryinJesus,
I couldn't fit your final question into my last post so I will answer it here.

You asked:
Why let Satan loose for a little season...if not for

The scripture you are referring to is here:

Rev 20:7-10 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for the ages of the ages.

The "thousand years" (reign) is a symbol for the judgment of the Elect. Like Peter says, it is "like" the Day of the Lord but it has a significant difference. When the Elect are judged, they do not experience "wrath". This is true because (unlike the "lost" of the final age) the Elect are saved PRIOR to their judgment falling. For this reason, the new child of God will reign with Christ during the believer's time of judgment. That is why the beast (Man of Sin) and false prophet (spirit of anti-Christ) are shown to be "taken" from within the Elect believer and cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction.

In the previous chapter (chapter 19), this truth is taught using the marriage analogy. After the Elect (Bride) are saved and born again at the Marriage of the Lamb, the Marriage Supper will commence when Christ feeds the believer His milk, bread, meat and New Wine. After the believer is sufficiently nourished, the Day of the Lord will come. It comes because of the truth the believer just received at the supper.

This verse applies:

2Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Chapter 19 shows the arrival of the Day of the Lord by showing the new child of God (the Bride) riding a white horse with Christ over their own judgment. This is the thousand years reign and is why the Elect do not experience wrath during their time of judgment.

Note: the Elect will also reign for a thousand years in the final age over the judgment of the "lost". In other words, the Thousand Years is "twice told":

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

After the Elect believer's time of judgment is complete, Rev 20:5 calls the whole process of conversion (Marriage, Marriage Supper and the Thousand Years reign) the First Resurrection. It is a spiritual resurrection and not a bodily resurrection.

After the believer is converted, Satan will be loosed for a short season to tempt the believer.

This event was "typed" by the time when Satan came to Christ in the wilderness to tempt Him. This time of tempting occurs AFTER the believer has fasted in the wilderness for 40 days. This time of fasting is the same as when Paul could not eat or drink in Damascus for three days. It occurs in the wilderness where Satan and the apostate church dwell. It is a time of great tribulation which is what the number 40 represents.

The Nation of Israel likewise spent 40 years in the wilderness to type the same event. In the wilderness, the Israelites are feed "manna" which is not the true bread from heaven. Manna represents the Law of the Old Covenant. It is eaten carnally. The true bread from heaven is the New Covenant and it is consumed spiritually.

After the believer successfully passes the tempting of Satan, the believer will never be tempted by Satan again. They will then grow into a fully matured son of God who produces spiritual fruit.

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I will try to be more specific on my points.

You said:
You say they (the Foolish Virgins) are not the “wise” Christ will confound.

what I wrote above does not make sense, even to me the one who wrote it. :I twist my words up where they are not written the way I meant them in my head. I can see your point in the spiritual teaching of the ten virgins and I don't disagree with you. I think I keep asserting if one is going to read it as literal or carnally minded as those ...he was saying to them it was given in parables...that is my struggle. depending on how it is perceived (heavenward or earthward) then who is wise and who is foolish changes. But since I struggle to make my point can we move on because I would rather discuss what you shared below.

The scriptures you point out do agree with the "timetable" I have presented. However, you understand those verses differently than I do.

You are right that the man who was tormented by the demon is a "type" which teaches us truth. And He does represent a "double-minded man". A double minded man is a "called out" believer who has earnest of the Spirit and the spirit of anti-Christ. They are trying to serve two masters (Christ and Satan). The old well represents the Law which is what is taught by the spirit of anti-Christ. The Law is based on the works of man and not on the works of Christ. It is the Law that condemns mankind in fire. The "water of life" is the Holy Spirit. Those who are under the New Covenant are no longer under the Old Covenant and therefore, are not judged. When a believer has both the Holy Spirit and the spirit of anti-Christ, they will be toss into water and into fire. That is what the man with the unclean spirit represents.

Agree. I don't disagree. I like what you said above.

You said:
I’m still waiting on His appearing a second time unto Salvation. I read about it but to be honest I haven’t seen His appearing a second time unto Salvation. I see no fruit of the Spirit of God. Anywhere. So does it only speak of the Jews or His elect, for a distant appearance a second time unto Salvation. Maybe. But Paul sure was waiting on Jesus Christ appearances in them a second time unto completion and perfection and salvation.

This is an amazing statement you have made above. I have never hear anyone on the many forums I have visited over the years make such a statement. To realize your need for the second coming and the Latter Rain is one of the "signs of the times" that only the "few" will "see".

Christ said this about it:

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

When Christ is ready to "appear" a second time to baptize one of His Elect with the Holy Spirit, He will cause them to pray for it. This is what Paul was praying for even though scripture does not provide those details in the scripture:

Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

Ananias is a type for Christ. Paul must have repented earlier because Ananias had to travel on "Straight" Street to come to Paul. When Ananias arrived, Paul received the Latter Rain and the scales fell off his eyes (spiritual blindness was healed). Paul was then told to eat "meat".

This scripture below applies to the Elect (a son) and is what Christ will cause His Elect to pray for when He is ready to give them the Latter Rain:

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

As with several on the board you write clearly. If I understand you correctly, where you wrote "is a sign of the times" makes sense to me. One of my favorite passages you quoted:

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

When Christ came to me a second time on Oct 8th, 2005, He caused me to pray a similar prayer. He came to me three days later and my world was turned upside down. I could see the Abomination of Desolation, the man of sin was revealed to me and my sun and moon were darkened.

My conversion testimony is presented on my website www.greatmysteryofchrist.com if you would like to read it.

I encourage you to pray for understanding and the Latter Rain. Remember, the Lord is the giver of good gifts.

I did read your conversion testimony. Thank you for sharing it and for taking the time to talk to me. Interesting to me is how closely your conversion testimony followed the path of: But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away with.
When I was a child, I spoke as a child:
but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now, we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part: then shall I know even as also I am known.

Your testimony made me think of a few things I had not considered before.
In regard to the ten virgins... when I was a child... but when I became a man... helps to me with what you are saying about the wise virgins in the parable. Is this what you mean? although the wise in the parable are childish in not sharing their oil, they are still the children of God. Not yet mature (given the latter rain) where they will, yes, "bear fruit of the Spirit of God."? Is that what you mean? ...they are children of God although not yet convert...to strengthen their brothers?

Also, your testimony made me consider this.
childish and mature. with the passage on: milk belongs to those yet childish "babes in Christ"..."meat" belongs to those who are mature, fully grown? "When I was a child, I spoke as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

one last thing your testimony made me think of. you mentioned prophecies, tongues and knowledge...failing, ceasing, vanishing. I have never once considered what is the difference in: the Gift of God and the Fruit of God? Are they the same or is the gift(promise) given to prepare to bear, the Fruit of God?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

This verse applies:

2Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I loved most of your post there. I love the way you see. You inspire me, comfort, and help strengthen by sharing because I don’t think you are insane or making the word fit your theology talking foolishly. To me you have brought clarity to the Word. there are some things I questioned in that one post though. I’ve quoted them here. Like the above with this:

Chapter 19 shows the arrival of the Day of the Lord by showing the new child of God (the Bride) riding a white horse with Christ over their own judgment. This is the thousand years reign and is why the Elect do not experience wrath during their time of judgment.

I’ve always thought it is Christ riding a white horse just like the verse you quoted earlier “look up” “lift up your heads” for your redemption draws near

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

I do have one silly question maybe you can help with. One I’ve asked but never got an answer to. Why for your infirmities “drink no longer water but take a little wine for your stomachs sake”?

 

[FaithWillDo]

I did read your conversion testimony. Thank you for sharing it and for taking the time to talk to me. Interesting to me is how closely your conversion testimony followed the path of: But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away with.
When I was a child, I spoke as a child:
but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now, we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part: then shall I know even as also I am known.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You quoted:
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away with. When I was a child, I spoke as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now, we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part: then shall I know even as also I am known.

The teaching on a "babe in Christ" is actually a difficult subject in scripture. It sounds easy enough to understand but applying it to a person is a "mystery". I consider it to be a part of the great mystery of Christ and His Church (Eph 5:32). I'll try to explain below.

To begin with, one must understand that the church today is apostate. It became apostate near the end of the 1st century A.D. I will spend some time on it so that my final comments on a "babe in Christ" will make sense to you.

The apostasy was mentioned Paul below:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Paul was very distressed about the coming apostasy of the church. Though he did not write much about it, he verbally warned his churches for three years with tears. It was a very big deal. After Paul's death, the spirit of anti-Christ (which John warned about) came into the church and did not spare the flock. The entire church became apostate and began following another Jesus, another spirit, and taught another gospel. That false gospel of Satan's is founded upon "works" mixed with faith. This is the "crooked way" and is why Satan is called the crooked serpent. When Christ is ready to come to a fallen away Elect believer, He will send a person to them in the spirit of Elijah to make the pathway for Christ to come "straight". The straight way is by faith alone in Christ to do all the "works" of our salvation. For this reason, Christ sent John the Baptist to the Nation of Israel. The entire nation was "called out" and had fallen away. Those who responded to John's call of repentance from works (and never turned back like the zealots) made Christ's pathway straight for Him to return (as the Bridegroom). He returned on the Day of Pentecost to the 120 Jewish Elect believers and poured out the Latter Rain.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Note: Since the Gentiles were never "called out" like the Jews were, when Christ comes to a gentile, he will first call them out from the world by giving them the Early Rain (the Holy Spirit of Promise, Eph 1:13-14). This event in the life of a gentile gives them a measure of faith and will cause them to call Jesus "Lord". This is the point when they enter the "church". In the church, they become one of the Ten Virgins who must "wait" for the Lord to return (called His second coming). However, during their time of waiting, they slumber and sleep at night. This represents the apostasy of the church. Both the non-chosen (Foolish Virgins) and the chosen believers (Wise Virgins) will experience it.
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After the deaths of the Apostles, Satan's gospel quickly spread into all the churches because his false gospel was very deceptive & pleasing to the carnality of the believers in the church.

Consider what Christ said below:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Luke 5:29 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

The carnality of called out believers prefers the Old Covenant which is based upon the outward works of man. The New Covenant is different. It is based upon the spiritual works of Christ. Because mankind does not contribute any of their own "works" under the New Covenant, a carnally minded believer will rejected. The true New Covenant is only acceptable to a believer after they have been converted and have become a child of God.

Christ also said this about what would happen in the church:

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

The "woman" represents the carnality of a called out believer. She is the one who becomes the Great Harlot and who becomes a "habitation of devils" (spirit of anti-Christ):

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great (Harlot) is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

Below, Christ taught how the church (through their carnal nature) became indwelt with the spirit of anti-Christ:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...

 

[FaithWillDo]

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away with.
When I was a child, I spoke as a child:
but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now, we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part: then shall I know even as also I am known.

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

The "church" that exists in the world today (all approx. 2,000 different denominations/sects) is apostate and it became apostate shortly after Paul's death. The bread that the apostate church teaches is very deceiving and is full of "hidden" leaven. It has some truth mixed into it but overall, its teachings are false.

The Doctrines of Free Will and Hell are most dangerous teachings because, through those doctrines, Satan kills the saints:

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

There is only one sin that a called out believer can commit that will cause them to fall from grace. That is the sin of adding their own works to "grace through faith". This is the sin that leads to death (1John 5:16).

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Even just adding one "work" (like circumcision) to faith will cause a believer to fall from grace and come under the Law again. This truth in taught by the "type" given in the story of the woman taken in adultery. It is only after Christ writes His Law of the Spirit in our hearts a second time does the Law no longer accuse us.

With all that said, the point I wanted to make about a "babe in Christ" is that there are no "babes in Christ" in the church. The believers in the church have (or will) fallen away and have become a man of sin. They are not a child of God. They are still a child of the devil like before they were "called out". The only difference now is they are a "worse than the first" child of the devil.

When Christ comes again to one of His fallen away Elect believers and pours out the Latter Rain, it is at that point they are "born again" and will become a "babe in Christ". They will then quickly consume the milk of the Word and be ready to move onto bread and meat. This is what the Lord's Supper and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb represent. This meal immediately follows the Marriage of the Lamb which is when the believer is "born again". From the truth the believer consumes, it will bring on the judgment of the Day of the Lord (shown in the last half of Revelation chapter 19). This judgment will remove the spirit of anti-Christ and the Great Harlot from within the believer. The Day of the Lord will complete the believer's "conversion".

However, to make the child of God grow into a fully matured man (a perfect man), the chastisement of Christ will begin. The chastisement of Christ will "transform" the carnal mind of the believer into the "mind of Christ". This is a slow process and can take many years to complete.

John the Baptist is a "type" for the Old Man (represents the carnal mind, the head). He said this:

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

I will respond to your other comments in another post.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

I loved most of your post there. I love the way you see. You inspire me, comfort, and help strengthen by sharing because I don’t think you are insane or making the word fit your theology talking foolishly. To me you have brought clarity to the Word. there are some things I questioned in that one post though. I’ve quoted them here. Like the above with this:

I’ve always thought it is Christ riding a white horse just like the verse you quoted earlier “look up” “lift up your heads” for your redemption draws near



I do have one silly question maybe you can help with. One I’ve asked but never got an answer to. Why for your infirmities “drink no longer water but take a little wine for your stomachs sake”?

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You said:
One last thing your testimony made me think of. you mentioned prophecies, tongues and knowledge...failing, ceasing, vanishing. I have never once considered what is the difference in: the Gift of God and the Fruit of God? Are they the same or is the gift(promise) given to prepare to bear, the Fruit of God?

As a converted believer matures, they will start producing spiritual fruit. After we become a "perfect man" will produce all the spiritual fruit listed in scripture. To get a believer to that point, the gifts of the Spirit are given to us. Once the "perfect man" arrives, some of the gifts will no longer be needed and will cease.

My wife's gift of prophecy ceased about three years after our conversion. I don't believe she ever had the gift of tongues (languages). What she experienced was what this verse teaches:

1Cor 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

I believe the gift of "knowledge" is referring to the learning of knowledge and not the knowledge itself.

As for where I am in my "walk", I believe I have more to go to become a "perfect man". But I can see that I am much closer than I used to be. I pray about it quite a bit and will ask for the Lord to chastise me where I still need it. I remind myself that this is all part of why "patience" is one of the fruits of the Spirit.

Luke 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

James 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

I will now read your second post and I will respond if necessary.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

I loved most of your post there. I love the way you see. You inspire me, comfort, and help strengthen by sharing because I don’t think you are insane or making the word fit your theology talking foolishly. To me you have brought clarity to the Word. there are some things I questioned in that one post though. I’ve quoted them here. Like the above with this:

I’ve always thought it is Christ riding a white horse just like the verse you quoted earlier “look up” “lift up your heads” for your redemption draws near



I do have one silly question maybe you can help with. One I’ve asked but never got an answer to. Why for your infirmities “drink no longer water but take a little wine for your stomachs sake”?

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You said:
I loved most of your post there. I love the way you see. You inspire me, comfort, and help strengthen by sharing because I don’t think you are insane or making the word fit your theology talking foolishly. To me you have brought clarity to the Word. there are some things I questioned in that one post though. I’ve quoted them here.

2Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Thank you for your kind words. Most people on the forum can't "see" what you are seeing.

As for what you still "question", I am amazed that you are not questioning nearly everything I have presented.

As for 2Thes chapter 2, it is Paul's teaching on what the wolves will do when they come into the church. It is one of the most detailed teachings on the apostasy in scripture.

However, chapter 2 is a little confusing until you realize that at the time Paul wrote to his church, the church had not yet become apostate. Paul was still encouraging them and trying to keep his "chaste virgin" from falling away. He didn't want them to have to experience the apostasy before the Lord comes and gathers them to heaven (verse 1, the return of the Bridegroom/Second Coming/Latter Rain).

Concerning verses 1-4, evidently some people in the church had told the Thessalonian believers that the Day of the Lord was "at hand". The Day of the Lord mentioned in verse 2 is referring to when judgment comes upon the "lost" after they have been resurrected from the grave. That event commences the next age. Paul says that before that day comes, the apostasy of the church will occur first. Paul then begins teaching some of the details of the apostasy.

The verse I quoted above is referring to the Man of Sin (the Wicked) who is the end product of the apostasy in the church. The Man of Sin is destroyed by the "brightness" of Christ's appearance. This "brightness" comes to a believer at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb when the believer begins to understand the truth of God's Word (Christ) for the first time. It is at that time, the believer "sees" the Abomination of Desolation (Mat 24:15) which occurred when the spirit of anti-Christ indwelt them. This is also the time when the Man of Sin is revealed to the believer and they see that they are this man. From this knowledge of the truth, Christ will "take" the Man of Sin and cast him into the Lake of Fire. The brightness of the truth of Christ is what destroys the Man of Sin. After this event, the believer is converted.

You said:
I’ve always thought it is Christ riding a white horse just like the verse you quoted earlier “look up” “lift up your heads” for your redemption draws near.

A "horse" in scripture represents a soldier who is going out to conquer an enemy. When Christ comes to a believer with the Latter Rain, He "appears" has He is. After the birth of the child of God and the Lord's Supper, the white horse appears because judgment is coming. Christ riding a white horse represents Him going out to conquer (judge) the carnality of the believer which includes the Man of Sin and Great Harlot. The child of God is also shown to be riding a white horse with Christ because the child of God will reign with Christ over the believer's own judgment (this is part of the Thousand Years Reign). It is for this reason that an Elect believer will not experience "wrath" during their time of judgment.

As for your last question the drinking a little wine, I will respond to it in another post later today. I am out of time for right now.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

I do have one silly question maybe you can help with. One I’ve asked but never got an answer to. Why for your infirmities “drink no longer water but take a little wine for your stomachs sake”?

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You asked:
I do have one silly question maybe you can help with. One I’ve asked but never got an answer to. Why for your infirmities “drink no longer water but take a little wine for your stomachs sake”?

Any question which is a serious quest for knowledge is not a silly question. Because it's not silly, I will try to give you a serious and correct answer to the best of my ability (as the Lord leads me).

Here is the scripture:

1Tim 5: 19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. 21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. 22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure. 23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities. 24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after. 25 Likewise also the good works of some are manifest beforehand; and they that are otherwise cannot be hid.

I will admit that this is a difficult scripture to fully understand. I have given it a lot of thought and have come to an understanding which I believe is correct. However, I won’t say that I have 100% certainty. If my understanding is not exactly right, I believe it is close. I’ll explain my understanding below and show how I arrived at it.

THE SYMBOLS

As you are probably aware, the teaching of 1Tim 5:23 does NOT concern a physical health issue someone in the church is having. Paul is teaching in Christ’s spiritual language which uses “spirit” words (spiritual symbols) which have meanings which are different than what man’s wisdom teaches:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

So let’s begin our search for treasure by identifying and then, scripturally defining the “spirit” words which Paul uses.

Note: Spiritual symbols can have either a positive application or negative application. Also, spiritual symbols (nouns) can also be used as verbs which will carry different meanings. I will define the symbols below as nouns which is how Paul uses them in the verse.

1). “Water” represents a spirit. It is usually representing the Holy Spirit but sometimes it represents an unclean spirit. Also, a spirit is what gives a person their thoughts & beliefs.

Consider these verses:

Hos 2:5 For their mother has played the harlot; She who conceived them has behaved shamefully. For she said, ‘I will go after my lovers, Who give me my bread and my water (unclean spirit), My wool and my linen, My oil and my drink.’

Eze 36:25 “Then I will sprinkle clean water (Holy Spirit) on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.

2). “Wine” represents the blood of either the Old Covenant (Old Wine) or the New Covenant of Grace through Faith (New Wine):

Mat 26:27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 “For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine (New Wine) from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

Luke 5:39 “And no one, having drunk old wine (Old Covenant), immediately desires new (New Covenant); for he says, ‘The old is better.'

3). “Infirmities” represents our weaknesses which can be either physical or spiritual.

2Cor 12:5 Of such a one I will boast; yet of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities (physical).

Mat 8:17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: “He Himself took our infirmities (spiritual) And bore our sicknesses.”

4). “Stomach” represents our soul (individual consciousness) which receives the food we eat. That food can be either carnal & false or it can be spiritual & true.

Prov 13:25 The righteous eats to the satisfying of his soul, But the stomach (soul) of the wicked shall be in want.

Eze 3:3 And He said to me, “Son of man, feed your belly, and fill your stomach (soul) with this scroll that I give you.” So I ate, and it was in my mouth like honey in sweetness.

THE MEANING OF 1TIM 5:23

In this section of scripture, Paul is teaching about the seriousness of when another believer in the church is sinning. Paul says that the sinful believer should be confronted with two or three witnesses. Paul adds that this should not be done suddenly but only after careful consideration of the evidence. Paul adds that others in the church should be careful not to be partakers with them in their sin but to keep themselves pure. So how do we keep ourselves pure? This is what verse 23 is addressing:

1Tim 5:23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.

We keep ourselves pure not just by consuming what the Holy Spirit (water) teaches us to do (love God and love our neighbors) but also by what the Old Covenant of Law (Old Wine) teaches us about right and wrong. Paul says that we should drink a “little wine” (Old) to help our soul (stomach) remain pure and to help with the weaknesses of the flesh.

I can’t say that I am 100% certain of my understanding, but what I stated above is what makes sense to me. I am certain though that the verse is not teaching about drinking literal wine to help our physical stomach with its infirmities – that is a carnal understanding and misses Paul's message completely.

Joe