Once saved, always saved is a myth.

[Wrangler]

I also believe that God's elect will persevere in the faith.

More Ex Post Facto reasoning.

God does not want anyone to perish, true?

But this does not mean universalism is correct doctrine. It means some will perish even though God does not wish it. A little bit of word play to equate "God's Elect" with those whose name is written in the Book of Life. Overlap, for sure. The same? No. If it were the same, there would not be all the verses indicating believers will be lost.

This also brings up the point of why even create a Great Commission if it all is a matter of God's elect anyway, independent of choices people make?

 

[Taken]

It’s implied in Scripture in many ways. Jesus says we are the salt but salt that has lost its flavor is discarded.

Salvation IS a GIFT Already Established FOR ANY man TO RECEIVE. It’s is Already YOURS TO TAKE, TO RECEIVE, TO HAVE.

Don’t TAKE IT, you Forfeit it.

Men Can RECEIVE Gods Gift of Salvation “according to Gods terms”….HIS WILL.

Gods “TERMS” REQUIRES:
* Heartful BELIEF IN God and His Word and His Christ Messiah…
* a BODILY DEATH, BEFORE Gods GIFT of SALVATION is GIVEN a SOUL.

“IF” a man Heartfully BELIEVES at the moment of his bodily DEATH….his SOUL “SHALL BE SAVED THEN at the moment his body physically dies”.

^ That is exactly what Applied to men For 4,000 years.
^ That is exactly what Continues to Apply to men For the last 2,000 years…and shall continue until mankind does not exist.

For the last 2,000 years, at the coming of Gods Word in the likeness as a man, speaking and teaching, and revealing He IS the Power (Christ) of God….HE OFFERED A NEW BETTER TESTAMENT;
He Offered men COULD Choose to Be “spiritually” Bodily Crucified WITH Jesus’ Body, AND RECEIVE His Gift of Salvation…BEFORE his physical bodily death…AND AT that moment that mans SOUL IS MADE SAVED right THEN.

IF you ignore the requirement to NOT ONLY BELIEVE (before bodily death)….AND Confess that belief….to RECEIVE Gods Gift of Salvation (before bodily death)….
BY Default you ignore men SIMPLY BELIEVING, (without True Heartful Confession of their BELIEF)….CAN, and DO STOP BELIEVING…and have NOT RECEIVED Gods Gift of Salvation.

Many Scriptures WARN that simply BELIEVING does NOT PREVENT evil spirits and wicked men of this WORLD from Tempting and Enticing men to STOP Believing. And a man WHO is tempted or enticed to STOP believing has forfeited his Gift of Salvation.

Believing, IS effected BY the man’s power.
He can Believe today, Not Believe tomorrow.
^^ It is men in this scenario that are Scripturally WARNED to be cautious of evil spirits and powerful wicked men who Tempt by words or Tempt by threats of Force TO REJECT God and instead Follow them.

Heartful Confessed Belief, IS acknowledge and kept constant BY Gods power.
^^ Once Accomplished, NO ONE, Not evil spirits, Not wicked men supersede Gods Power to KEEP that mans soul Saved Forever.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[BlessedPeace]

Well we are using the acronym but it was not the teaching of Christ or the Apostles or the early Christian writings or a topic in the centuries of Ecumenical Councils....not biblical and not historical. Calvinism is the first thing you can point to and that is the 16th century and that man was nutz!

I will disagree. Eternal Salvation was the whole of the Gospel of Jesus. And it was not only reiterated by the Apostle Paul but he also told us Salvation was God's permanent gift bestowal.

That's the true history in our bibles. From the beginning of Jesus' ministry unto the end of this world.
All Ecumenical councils were aware of this. As of course were the Disciples.

Numbers 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

 

[CadyandZoe]

More Ex Post Facto reasoning.

How so? Again, I maintain that salvation comes at the Seventh Trump.

God does not want anyone to perish, true?

So it is written.

But this does not mean universalism is correct doctrine.

Universalism is not correct. Agreed.

It means some will perish even though God does not wish it. A little bit of word play to equate "God's Elect" with those whose name is written in the Book of Life. Overlap, for sure. The same? No. If it were the same, there would not be all the verses indicating believers will be lost.

I respectfully disagree. Some believers will fall away. Yes, this is clear. Nevertheless, those whom God is saving will not fall away. The following passage is critical to our understanding of this doctrine.

Romans 5:1-5

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.​

Verse 5 is worth considering. Paul asserts that hope will not disappoint, but this is only true for those who have received the Holy Spirit from God. So, how can a believer know if their hope will not disappoint? It is through tests of faith that one gains confidence and assurance. By consistently passing these tests, believers can gain even greater assurance.

This also brings up the point of why even create a Great Commission if it all is a matter of God's elect anyway, independent of choices people make?

God's glory is the purpose of salvation. Every action of God can be understood within the context of the story He weaves. He sends a preacher to share His message, and those who believe continue to have faith until the Seventh Trumpet, all in service of the larger narrative.

Why? For the glory of his grace.

 

[BlessedPeace]

How so? Again, I maintain that salvation comes at the Seventh Trump.

So it is written.

Universalism is not correct. Agreed.

I respectfully disagree. Some believers will fall away. Yes, this is clear. Nevertheless, those whom God is saving will not fall away. The following passage is critical to our understanding of this doctrine.

Romans 5:1-5

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.​

Verse 5 is worth considering. Paul asserts that hope will not disappoint, but this is only true for those who have received the Holy Spirit from God. So, how can a believer know if their hope will not disappoint? It is through tests of faith that one gains confidence and assurance. By consistently passing these tests, believers can gain even greater assurance.


God's glory is the purpose of salvation. Every action of God can be understood within the context of the story He weaves. He sends a preacher to share His message, and those who believe continue to have faith until the Seventh Trumpet, all in service of the larger narrative.

Why? For the glory of his grace.

Throughout his word God tells us most everything is for his glory.

@CadyandZoe , is your post stating we are not actually in salvation, saved, until the 7th trumpet sounds?

 

[marks]

I will disagree. Eternal Salvation was the whole of the Gospel of Jesus. And it was not only reiterated by the Apostle Paul but he also told us Salvation was God's permanent gift bestowal.

That's the true history in our bibles. From the beginning of Jesus' ministry unto the end of this world.
All Ecumenical councils were aware of this. As of course were the Disciples.

Numbers 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

The only way one can read and believe quite a few plainly stated passages is to understand that when we receive Jesus with true faith, God gives us rebirth, which forever changes us.

Much love!

 

[Grailhunter]

I will disagree. Eternal Salvation was the whole of the Gospel of Jesus. And it was not only reiterated by the Apostle Paul but he also told us Salvation was God's permanent gift bestowal.

That's the true history in our bibles. From the beginning of Jesus' ministry unto the end of this world.
All Ecumenical councils were aware of this. As of course were the Disciples.

Numbers 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

Eternal salvation and OSAS are two different things.
Before the 16th century they probably would have burnt anyone at the stake that preached OSAS.
Paul would have reminded them of the cursed that preached a different Gospel.

Other that that see posts 90, 93, and 95

 

[CadyandZoe]

Throughout his word God tells us most everything is for his glory.

@CadyandZoe , is your post stating we are not actually in salvation, saved, until the 7th trumpet sounds?

Yes. Actual salvation is being set free of sin and death and transformed from corruption to incorruption and etc.

 

[GeneZ]

Well we are using the acronym but it was not the teaching of Christ or the Apostles or the early Christian writings or a topic in the centuries of Ecumenical Councils....not biblical and not historical. Calvinism is the first thing you can point to and that is the 16th century and that man was nutz!

If you do a little research I believe you would find out that some of the bad things Calvin gets tagged with today were actually concocted by a disciple of his Theodore Beza and some others after Calvin's death.

 

[Grailhunter]

If you do a little research I believe you would find out that some of the bad things Calvin gets tagged with today were actually concocted by a disciple of his Theodore Beza and some others after Calvin's death.

I agree.
The history of Calvin is difficult to sort out and modern Calvinism is not exactly what he believed....or appeared to believe. Still from what we know of his beliefs there appears to be some errors in his rationality.

 

[GeneZ]

I agree.
The history of Calvin is difficult to sort out and modern Calvinism is not exactly what he believed....or appeared to believe. Still from what we know of his beliefs there appears to be some errors in his rationality.

Calvin bravely came out of a huge swamp covered in darkness (RCC).

Its to be expected that some of the swamp smell would remain with him as he ventured out to pioneer new Scriptural territory.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Yes. Actual salvation is being set free of sin and death and transformed from corruption to incorruption and etc.

Only after that 7th trumpet? Or immediately?

 

[GeneZ]

Yes. Actual salvation is being set free of sin and death and transformed from corruption to incorruption and etc.

You are imputed Righteousness the moment you believe.
You are imparted Righteousness when resurrected,

Salvation takes place in phases.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Only after that 7th trumpet? Or immediately?

I am thinking about 1 Corinthians 15:50-56

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are imputed Righteousness the moment you believe.
You are imparted Righteousness when resurrected,

Salvation takes place in phases.

Yes, of course. Paul refers to this as an earnest of our inheritance. Our actual inheritance is the transformation he describes in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 At that moment, we are truly saved.

 

[mailmandan]

I also believe that God's elect will persevere in the faith.

Psalms 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. God knows who His true saints are.

 

[Wrangler]

Verse 5 is worth considering. Paul asserts that hope will not disappoint, but this is only true for those who have received the Holy Spirit from God.

Agreed but this is for those who do not reject later.

 

[MatthewG]

The idea of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) is not a myth, although some of the stories surrounding it may be. For instance, there is a story about a young woman who attended church on a Sunday when a visiting evangelist preached a powerful sermon about Jesus, hell, sin, forgiveness, and redemption. The evangelist asked everyone to close their eyes and bow their heads and then began playing music. He then asked anyone who wanted to give their heart to Jesus to raise their hand. The young woman raised her hand, and the minister acknowledged it. After a few minutes, the meeting concluded with a reminder for everyone who raised their hand to fill out an attendance card. According to this story (which may or may not be true), the young woman was "saved" at that moment.

This story suggests a conversion experience but mistakenly assumes that salvation is solely achieved through a one-time confession of faith. It should be noted that this belief is often linked with the doctrine of OSAS, even though the Biblical doctrine of Eternal Security is not solely based on a one-time confession of faith.

The doctrine of Eternal Security is true and we can discuss this if you like Matthew.

I understand and agree with your insight and perspective concerning our walk. If you think of it as a daily decision, I get you. Even so, I also agree with @marks and @APAK concerning assurance. Knowing that I am actually and forever saved is both comforting and true. I think you and they are both sharing great insight and truth.

What's being spoken against are "Religious Leaders" on a pulpit, that says once saved always saved, just pray this prayer and you are saved... that is all that is being spoken again. Assurance is assured to those who make the choice daily, to seek out God.

Jesus himself talks about how in the Parable of the sower, how priorities get mixed up, and some fall away.

Therefore it is a day to day choice, people can start to have the spirit of unbelief creep in if they are not careful.

 

[BlessedPeace]

I am thinking about 1 Corinthians 15:50-56

Soul sleep. Yes, OK.
What I'm asking is do you believe we are in God's salvific grace while we live?

 

[BlessedPeace]

The only way one can read and believe quite a few plainly stated passages is to understand that when we receive Jesus with true faith, God gives us rebirth, which forever changes us.

Much love!

Nicely said.