The 70 Weeks Prophecy - The Ezra 6:14 Challenge

[EclipseEventSigns]

I have a "no" or two or three for you:

Gabriel said "restore and build Jerusalem" - which means the decree in question must include details concerning the reestablishment of the entire city - not just talk about a templ.

Does Cyrus' decree provide for this? NO NO NO.
Does Darius' decree provide for the this? NO NO NO.
Does Artaxerxes' decree FAIL to provide for this? NO NO NO.

Revisionist historians, since time immemorial.

Are we to believe the author of the only decree to fit all the criteria of Gabriel's prophecy would expect that all that gold, silver, wine, timber, livestock, food, oil, etc., should remain scattered throughout an unwalled city, the most important line of defense in all of antiquity?

Did Ezra give thanks for "a wall" after the decree of Cyrus? NO.
Did Ezra give thanks for "a wall" after the decree of Darius? NO.
Did Ezra FAIL to give thanks for "a wall" after the decree of Artaxerxes? NO.

Artaxerxes' decree said "beautify" the temple, right? What contractor would list a house as "complete" while failing to "beautify" it without casings, mouldings, lighting fixtures, and several coats of paint all over everything?

Artaxerxes' decree also proves the sacrificial system had not yet been set up:
The priests and company returning to Jerusalem were not to be charged tolls, etc.
The gold temple vessels were yet to be carried forth with them.

Did Cyrus' decree establish the restoration of the entire city? NO.
Did Darius' decree establish restoration of the entire city? NO.
Did Artaxerxes' decree establish an unprotected stockpile for enemy raiders a la Biden's Afghan mess? NO.

All that has to do with "criteria". Look, if you're the top salesman to whom is due the $500 bonus, and the last place guy demands your money, what would you tell him? Right - he didn't meet the criteria for it.

Likewise, the decrees of Cyrus and Darius do not meet the criteria of Gabriel's prophecy. You haven't cornered any little truth on this issue, you've just contracted a serious case of tunnel vision - I'd get some of that Laodicean salve "that thou mayest see".

Ezra 6 completely refutes your view of the facts. The temple was complete with the decree of Darius.
[Ezr 6:15 LSB] 15 And this house was brought to completion on the third day of the month Adar; it was the sixth year of the reign of King Darius.

They started the daily sacrifices of animals and grain offering.
[Ezr 6:17-18 LSB] 17 They brought near for the dedication of this house of God 100 bulls, 200 rams, 400 lambs, and as a sin offering for all Israel 12 male goats, corresponding to the number of the tribes of Israel. 18 Then they appointed the priests to their sections and the Levites in their divisions for the service of God in Jerusalem, as it is written in the book of Moses.

They began celebrating the Feasts of the Lord at the appointed times.
[Ezr 6:19-20 LSB] 19 And the exiles celebrated the Passover on the fourteenth of the first month. 20 For the priests and the Levites had cleansed themselves together; all of them were clean. Then they slaughtered the Passover [lamb] for all the exiles, both for their brothers the priests and for themselves.

Your desire to twist the texts to meet your particular system does not work out according to simple reading of Scripture.

As the Ezra 6:14 Challenge shows, there are NOT 3 decrees. There were 4. You are missing the MOST IMPORTANT one. The one that kicked off the entire 70 Weeks.

 

[Phoneman777]

Ezra 6 completely refutes your view of the facts. The temple was complete with the decree of Darius.
[Ezr 6:15 LSB] 15 And this house was brought to completion on the third day of the month Adar; it was the sixth year of the reign of King Darius.

They started the daily sacrifices of animals and grain offering.
[Ezr 6:17-18 LSB] 17 They brought near for the dedication of this house of God 100 bulls, 200 rams, 400 lambs, and as a sin offering for all Israel 12 male goats, corresponding to the number of the tribes of Israel. 18 Then they appointed the priests to their sections and the Levites in their divisions for the service of God in Jerusalem, as it is written in the book of Moses.

They began celebrating the Feasts of the Lord at the appointed times.
[Ezr 6:19-20 LSB] 19 And the exiles celebrated the Passover on the fourteenth of the first month. 20 For the priests and the Levites had cleansed themselves together; all of them were clean. Then they slaughtered the Passover [lamb] for all the exiles, both for their brothers the priests and for themselves.

Did you miss the part in Ezra 6:14 KJV where it says they completed everything according to the commandment of Cyrus, Darius, AND ARTAXERXES?

Not every event of chapter 6 precedes chapter 7. Anyone who understand Hebrew Chiastic Structure knows the Hebrews are impatient to get to the "good part" of the story so, unlike in the West, they put the climax in the middle instead of at the end and spend the rest of the time repeating it and adding details. It's for this very same reason people get Daniel and Revelation twisted, as well as Immortal Soul doctrine "proof texts" like 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV - if their interpretation destroys the chiasm, too bad.

Your desire to twist the texts to meet your particular system does not work out according to simple reading of Scripture.

As the Ezra 6:14 Challenge shows, there are NOT 3 decrees. There were 4. You are missing the MOST IMPORTANT one. The one that kicked off the entire 70 Weeks.

Even if the temple and services were completed before the decree of Artaxerxes, we're concerned about which decree is comprehensive enough to meet Gabriel's criteria - which alone is the decree of Artaxerxes.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Did you miss the part in Ezra 6:14 KJV where it says they completed everything according to the commandment of Cyrus, Darius, AND ARTAXERXES?

Not every event of chapter 6 precedes chapter 7. Anyone who understand Hebrew Chiastic Structure knows the Hebrews are impatient to get to the "good part" of the story so, unlike in the West, they put the climax in the middle instead of at the end and spend the rest of the time repeating it and adding details. It's for this very same reason people get Daniel and Revelation twisted, as well as Immortal Soul doctrine "proof texts" like 1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV - if their interpretation destroys the chiasm, too bad.

Even if the temple and services were completed before the decree of Artaxerxes, we're concerned about which decree is comprehensive enough to meet Gabriel's criteria - which alone is the decree of Artaxerxes.

Have you even READ the two decrees? Do you even know the order of the kings of the Medo-Persian empire? Your comment shows that you are lacking an understanding of history. And again you completely ignore Ezra's very clear statement that there were 4 DECREES. 4. Not 3. There were 4.

 

[Phoneman777]

Have you even READ the two decrees? Do you even know the order of the kings of the Medo-Persian empire? Your comment shows that you are lacking an understanding of history. And again you completely ignore Ezra's very clear statement that there were 4 DECREES. 4. Not 3. There were 4.

Are you breaking up Artaxerxes' SINGULAR decree into two separate decrees?

Who are the authors of these supposed "4" decrees? Can you name them?

See, if you're going to make wild accusations about what others "lack", could please provide the supposed "lack"? I don't claim to be a Bible scholar, but I know there's only ONE decree that fits Gabriel's criteria.

How about you list the "four" decrees and we can examine them together to determine which best fits the "restore and build JERUSALEM" part of Gabriel's' prophecy?

I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS IS: WHICH OF THESE DECREES IS COMPREHENSIVE ENOUGH TO QUALIFY AS A DIRECTIVE TO "RESTORE AND BUILD JERUSALEM" WHICH WOULD INCLUDE DETAILS THAT GO BEYOND MERELY TEMPLE RESTORATION.

I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND THAT WHICHEVER DECREE CONSISTS OF THE BROADEST RANGE OF INFORMATION HAVING TO DO WITH BUILDING AND RESTORATION OF JERUSALEM IS THE DECREE TO WHICH GABRIEL REFERS AND THE DECREE FROM WHICH WE START COUNTING THE 70 WEEKS.

NOW, ARE YOU GOING TO PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS AND EXPLAIN WHICH DECREE IS THE ONE THAT MOST COMPREHENSIVELY FITS GABRIEL'S CRITERIA, OR CONTINUING DODGING THE ISSUE?

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Are you breaking up Artaxerxes' SINGULAR decree into two separate decrees?

Who are the authors of these supposed "4" decrees? Can you name them?

See, if you're going to make wild accusations about other's "lack" of things, then maybe you ought to provide the supposed "lack", right or wrong?

It's so hard to keep track of what you are talking about because you keep stating false statements.
There WERE two decrees by Artaxerxes.
7th year - to beautify the temple
20th year - to allow Nehemiah to rebuild the wall and city

 

[Phoneman777]

It's so hard to keep track of what you are talking about because you keep stating false statements.
There WERE two decrees by Artaxerxes.
7th year - to beautify the temple
20th year - to allow Nehemiah to rebuild the wall and city

And spare me the "Messiah/commander" bulldookey - everyone knows "Messiah" here refers to "anointed" which is EXACTLY what happened when Jesus was baptized and "anointed".

It's startling how gullible one has to be to think a "triumphant entry" as "commander" today which will turn into "crucify Him!" at the end of the week is somehow supposed to more prophetically significant than the HOLY SPIRIT ANOINTING OF JESUS IN JORDAN exactly 483 years after Artaxerxes' 457 B.C. decree.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

AH HA! See, that's where YOU and the rest of your ilk go wrong.

The 444 decree was not a new decree, but a REINSTATEMENT of the original 457 decree that was suspended pending investigation. I'm not letting you get away with this false argument intended to divert from 457 B .C.

Start at 457 B.C., count 483 years and you come to 27 A.D., the year Jesus was baptized right on time. You can't force a square peg into a round hole.

Jesus was not baptized in 27 AD. It's just not true.

"Reinstatement"? Suspended? Where are you getting your false facts? There is nothing like that. Have to pop each of these false statements one at a time.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jesus was not baptized in 27 AD. It's just not true.

"Reinstatement"? Suspended? Where are you getting your false facts? There is nothing like that.

My face is sore from the facepalming, friend.

1. Artaxerxes makes 457 B.C. decree fulfilling all Gabriel's criteria after the decrees of Cyrus and Darius fail to do so.

2. The 457 B.C. decree was suspended for a time until the accusations against Israel were resolved.

3. In 445/444, the 457 B.C. was reinstated - it was not a new decree!

Why a mere reinstatement, and not a new decree?​

The word MP kings was irrevocable law - not even the king could reverse it, remember? Therefore, once the 457 B.C. decree was deemed legit and in harmony with MP law, there was no need to re-codify that which was already an unalterable MP law.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

My face is sore from the facepalming, friend.

1. Artaxerxes makes 457 B.C. decree fulfilling all Gabriel's criteria after the decrees of Cyrus and Darius fail to do so.

2. The 457 B.C. decree was suspended for a time until the accusations against Israel were resolved.

3. In 445/444, the 457 B.C. was reinstated - it was not a new decree!

Why a mere reinstatement, and not a new decree?​

The word MP kings was irrevocable law - not even the king could reverse it, remember? Therefore, once the 457 B.C. was deemed legit, THERE WAS NO NEED TO RE-CODIFY THAT WHICH WAS ALREADY UNALTERABLE MEDO PERSIAN LAW.

Ridiculing and ad hominems don't make your false statements true.
Your point 1 is just not true. As I showed used scripture, there is NO MENTION OF REBUILDING JERUSALEM. It just isn't there. Jump up and down all you want. It just isn't there.

2. There is no "suspension" of the 457 BC decree. Show a verse of historical evidence where this happened. You are probably stating things out of ignorance. There were several kings names Artaxerxes. And several named Darius. You have to have a proper understanding of history.

3. the 20th year of Artaxerxes was a completely NEW decree. Show one verse where this was not the case. Nehemiah asks for something which no one had asked for up to that time. That is the ENTIRE point of that decree.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jesus was not baptized in 27 AD. It's just not true.

Did you not read where Jesus was baptized "in the 15th year of Tiberius, when Herod and Pilate were reigning?

According to the Syro-Macedonian calendar which is almost certainly what Luke was using, there was only ONE SINGLE YEAR these three reigned simultaneously: 27 A.D.

I'm happy to send you the receipts if you'd like to see them.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Did you not read where Jesus was baptized "in the 15th year of Tiberius, when Herod and Pilate were reigning?

According to the Syro-Macedonian calendar which is almost certainly what Luke was using, there was only ONE SINGLE YEAR these three reigned simultaneously: 27 A.D.

I'm happy to send you the receipts if you'd like to see them.

Not the point of this thread. What you keep stating is just false.
Noticed that you didn't respond to decrees. Shows you can't prove your statements according to scripture.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Did you not read where Jesus was baptized "in the 15th year of Tiberius, when Herod and Pilate were reigning?

According to the Syro-Macedonian calendar which is almost certainly what Luke was using, there was only ONE SINGLE YEAR these three reigned simultaneously: 27 A.D.

I'm happy to send you the receipts if you'd like to see them.

How do you know when you are dealing with someone who has a wrong interpretation.
1. When they claim that an entirely different calendar was being used by a writer addressing his own people
2. When they claim that historical dates were corrupted
3. When they read into scripture things that aren't there and can provide no historical proof for those claims
4. When they make comments which are not according to historical evidence - like the names of Persian kings.
and more...
5. When there is no reason given for why the first 7 Weeks exist. What is its purpose?
6. When those with nothing to offer constantly squawk that the Ezra 6:14 Challenge doesn't prove anything. Just the very fact that their interpretation can't stand up to the FACTS requires them to undermine and say the Challenge isn't valid. The Challenge exists to put ALL interpretations on a level playing field. All interpretations must meet the Challenge and face the facts headon.

 

[Jay Ross]

Where is the clag glue we can use to paper over the cracks in the wall of arguments that passes to and fro between members.

How important is the Ezra 6:14 challenge? Do we need it so as we can squabble over it to show who is more righteous in their understanding of its relevance in the discussion.

For me it has been a red herring concerning the Daniel 9:24-27 prophetic verses that provide five independent, time wise, prophecies.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

This is something all the bad actors and rotten apples on my various threads need to prayerfully consider and repent of.

 

[Phoneman777]

Ridiculing and ad hominems don't make your false statements true.
Your point 1 is just not true. As I showed used scripture, there is NO MENTION OF REBUILDING JERUSALEM. It just isn't there. Jump up and down all you want. It just isn't there.

2. There is no "suspension" of the 457 BC decree. Show a verse of historical evidence where this happened. You are probably stating things out of ignorance. There were several kings names Artaxerxes. And several named Darius. You have to have a proper understanding of history.

3. the 20th year of Artaxerxes was a completely NEW decree. Show one verse where this was not the case. Nehemiah asks for something which no one had asked for up to that time. That is the ENTIRE point of that decree.

Well, well, I owe you an apology! I just spent the last few days revisiting Ezra and Nehemiah and seem to have misremembered a couple things. However, none of this changes the point upon which you're wrong and I'm right -- that the decree of Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. is the only decree comprehensive enough to be the fulfillment of the prophecy of Daniel 9:25 KJV.

EZRA AND NEHEMIAH SUMMARY​

>Cyrus makes decree to rebuild temple (Ezra 1:1-4)
>Darius suspends Cyrus' decree (Ezra 4:24)
>Darius makes decree to resume rebuilding of the temple (Ezra 6:6-12)
>Artaxerxes makes an unspecified decree to rebuild temple (Ezra 6:14)
>Artaxerxes makes comprehensive decree in 457 B.C. fulfilling "restore/rebuild Jerusalem" of Daniel 9:25 (Ezra 7:12-26) after which Ezra praises God for His decision "to give us a wall" (Ezra 9:9)
>Artaxerxes makes a 445/444 decree to provide timber for palace gates and wall (Nehemiah 2:8)

WHY THE 445/444 DECREE PALES IN COMPARISON TO THE 457 B.C. DECREE​

So, we see the 445/444 decree was merely for timber for the gates and wall - which is nowhere near the wide scope of comprehensiveness that is Artaxerxes' 457 B.C. decree in Ezra 7:12-26 KJV which overshadows all other decrees:

• release of Israelite captives
• release of priests and authorization of priesthood
• return of sacred vessels (those not given to Sheshbazzar)
• free passage from Babylon to Jerusalem
• monetary grant subsidizing temple operation
• permission to utilize any monetary surplus
• grant for additional requirements for temple (likely pertaining to "beautification")
• standing orders for outlying treasurers to do what Ezra asks
• establishment of offices of magistrates
• establishment of offices of judges
• establishment of judiciary
• establishment of education
• establishment of office of law enforcement
• implied permission for a wall per Ezra's thanks to God for "a wall in Judah and Jerusalem"

 

[Phoneman777]

Not the point of this thread. What you keep stating is just false.
Noticed that you didn't respond to decrees. Shows you can't prove your statements according to scripture.

I was busy

 

[Phoneman777]

How do you know when you are dealing with someone who has a wrong interpretation.
1. When they claim that an entirely different calendar was being used by a writer addressing his own people
2. When they claim that historical dates were corrupted
3. When they read into scripture things that aren't there and can provide no historical proof for those claims
4. When they make comments which are not according to historical evidence - like the names of Persian kings.
and more...
5. When there is no reason given for why the first 7 Weeks exist. What is its purpose?
6. When those with nothing to offer constantly squawk that the Ezra 6:14 Challenge doesn't prove anything. Just the very fact that their interpretation can't stand up to the FACTS requires them to undermine and say the Challenge isn't valid. The Challenge exists to put ALL interpretations on a level playing field. All interpretations must meet the Challenge and face the facts headon.

As soon as you admit the 457 decree fulfills Daniel 9:25, we can discuss other things, like how the suggestion that Luke DID NOT use the Syro-Macedonian calendar would be equivalent to future generations 2000 years from now arguing that the United States didn't use the Gregorian calendar.

 

[Phoneman777]

Have you even READ the two decrees? Do you even know the order of the kings of the Medo-Persian empire? Your comment shows that you are lacking an understanding of history. And again you completely ignore Ezra's very clear statement that there were 4 DECREES. 4. Not 3. There were 4.

Agreed, there were four decrees:

1-3: Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes each decreed the temple should be built and finished (Ezra 6:14).

4: Artaxerxes' comprehensive, prophecy fulfilling decree of Ezra 7

 

[Phoneman777]

There can only be one correct interpretation of the 70 Weeks prophecy. That means most views are wrong. I wanted to identify a single issue as the test to judge all interpretations by. I think I have found it.

Everyone argues endlessly about which king made the decree to start the whole period of the 70 Weeks. Was it Cyrus? Was it Darius? Was it Artaxerxes? Was it something else people come up with? Well, Ezra gives us the major clue.

When talking about the second temple, he says: [Ezr 6:14 LSB] 14b So they built and completed [it] according to the decree of the God of Israel and the decree of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

Ezra 6:14 states that there were more than just 3 decrees from earthly kings that allowed for the completion of the temple (and by extension, returning to the land and rebuilding Jerusalem). There was a fourth. In addition Ezra seems to list the earthly decrees in chronological order.

Question:
Is there evidence that God commanded anyone to "restore and build Jerusalem"?

Answer:
No.

Evidence points to 3 decrees for rebuilding and completion of the temple (Ezra 6:14), then a fourth decree in Ezra 7 which fulfills Daniel 9:25, then a decree in Nehemiah by Artaxerxes to provide timber for gates and the wall.

It should be obvious to anyone Artaxerxes' decree in Ezra 7 is the only one that qualifies.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Question:
Is there evidence that God commanded anyone to "restore and build Jerusalem"?

Answer:
No.

Evidence points to 3 decrees for rebuilding and completion of the temple (Ezra 6:14), then a fourth decree in Ezra 7 which fulfills Daniel 9:25, then a decree in Nehemiah by Artaxerxes to provide timber for gates and the wall.

It should be obvious to anyone Artaxerxes' decree in Ezra 7 is the only one that qualifies.

there is only one command given to restore the CITY

all of the other commands was to restore only the temple