One reason why the rapture can not be post-trib

[rwb]

Just because you assume Premil is a false doctrine, why should I believe what you cannot biblically prove? Amil forces contradictions into Scripture, and that proves Amil is indeed unbiblical.

You shouldn't! You should study for yourself to see if Amil or even Premil is biblical or not. You've made an assumption saying Amil forces contradictions into Scripture. Since we are discussing Amil could you be kind enough to bring forth the way Amil forces contradictions into God's Word? Could you provide an example?

I'll show you one example where Premil forces contradiction. Premil doctrine teaches there will be one thousand more years of time given this earth after Christ returns. Scripture tells us this earth and everything in it will be utterly burned up when Christ returns, and there will be a new heaven and new earth. How do you reconcile Premil doctrine with the following passage from Scripture? Will there be another one thousand years on this burned up earth, or should we believe the Bible that tells us then there will be a new heaven and new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness???

2 Peter 3:10-13 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[David in NJ]

Didn't you read the OP

arguments about the pre-trib rapture aside, there is one big reason why the rapture can not be post-trib.

That is another false conclusion from the Big Lie of pre-trib rapture.

Read Zechariah chapter 14

 

[teamventure]

You shouldn't! You should study for yourself to see if Amil or even Premil is biblical or not. You've made an assumption saying Amil forces contradictions into Scripture. Since we are discussing Amil could you be kind enough to bring forth the way Amil forces contradictions into God's Word? Could you provide an example?

I'll show you one example where Premil forces contradiction. Premil doctrine teaches there will be one thousand more years of time given this earth after Christ returns. Scripture tells us this earth and everything in it will be utterly burned up when Christ returns, and there will be a new heaven and new earth. How do you reconcile Premil doctrine with the following passage from Scripture? Will there be another one thousand years on this burned up earth, or should we believe the Bible that tells us then there will be a new heaven and new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness???

2 Peter 3:10-13 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Pardon me, I am not very familiar with Amil, just scripture.

The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.
Isaiah 11:6 NIV

 

[teamventure]

You shouldn't! You should study for yourself to see if Amil or even Premil is biblical or not.

I have studied his word. The difference between me and an Amil, is I believe his word.

 

[teamventure]

That is another false conclusion from the Big Lie of pre-trib rapture.

Read Zechariah chapter 14

I think you missed my point, this thread is not for debating the pre-trib rapture.
My reasons for that are because it gets discussed far too much and I wanted to talk about something different.

 

[rwb]

Pardon me, I am not very familiar with Amil, just scripture.

The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.
Isaiah 11:6 NIV

What do you believe these prophetic words are applying to? How do you reconcile them with these verses that seem to refer to things that would come to pass when the promised Messiah, Savior would come as foretold?

Isaiah 11:1-5 (KJV) And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

 

[David in NJ]

I think you missed my point, this thread is not for debating the pre-trib rapture.
My reasons for that are because it gets discussed far too much and I wanted to talk about something different.

Please read Zech ch14

 

[rwb]

I have studied his word. The difference between me and an Amil, is I believe his word.

Actually the difference between you and Amil is your understanding, or lack thereof for His Word. You're reading the Word of God with a preconceived opinion, and with that opinion in mind you try very hard to force His Word to fit your opinion. In doing this you ignore contradiction your preconceived opinion forces into Scripture. What I've found is that most people don't argue against Amil doctrine because they understand it, and through study of the Word have found it to be false. No, most people argue against Amil doctrine because it does not fit their preconceived opinions or what they have been taught. Rightly discerned the doctrine of Amil is truth without contradiction, the same cannot be said of other doctrinal points of view.

 

[Timtofly]

Please post if you think you are able to find any scripture declaring:

a.) Jesus will pre-trib rapture His Elect/Bride/Saints/Church BEFORE the Antichrist/WickedOne/Son of Perdition

b.) the Bride of Christ/Church/Saints/Elect will NOT go thru Tribulations or even the Great Tribulation

c.) Christ will leave Heaven BEFORE the revealing of the "wicked one/Antichrist".

Revelation 6. Go read it. It happens before Revelation 13.

If you claim otherwise, it is a personal opinion.

God never said to read the book of Revelation in the order you prefer to read it in.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

amillennialism is a false doctrine and it is clearly so because it causes people to believe differently than what scripture says plainly. If it has some grand explanation that the scripture doesn't imply, chances are it's a false doctrine.

If it's a false doctrine, then prove it. I'm sure you cannot do that, so your words mean nothing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 6. Go read it. It happens before Revelation 13.

If you claim otherwise, it is a personal opinion.

God never said to read the book of Revelation in the order you prefer to read it in.

Where did He say to read it in the order you prefer to read it in?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But isn't this a description of Christ coming to earth and judging?

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25:31‭-‬33‭, ‬46 NIV

Where does that say anything about Him coming to earth?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Pardon me, I am not very familiar with Amil, just scripture.

The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.
Isaiah 11:6 NIV

Do you believe the verse is a literal narrative? Will it be a literal millennial kingdom on Earth for 1,000 years where animals will sit next to each other? Or is God painting a picture representing something?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just because you assume Premil is a false doctrine, why should I believe what you cannot biblically prove? Amil forces contradictions into Scripture, and that proves Amil is indeed unbiblical.

Name one scripture that Amil contradicts. Preferably one that is clear and straightforward rather than a highly debatable one.

 

[teamventure]

What do you believe these prophetic words are applying to? How do you reconcile them with these verses that seem to refer to things that would come to pass when the promised Messiah, Savior would come as foretold?

Isaiah 11:1-5 (KJV) And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Thank you for posting scripture.
Smiting the earth and slaying the wicked sound like they are in the future.

Also, I'm glad we see that he smites slays the wicked because that is another point to shut up the idea that the wicked enter the kingdom.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Pardon me, I am not very familiar with Amil, just scripture.

The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.
Isaiah 11:6 NIV

Amil is taught in scripture, so if you are not very familiar with Amil then I can't help but doubt you are very familiar with scripture. You might know the words, but I have my doubts that you know what they mean.

By the way, that verse you quoted has the same timing as this verse:

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Paul indicated that the timing of that verse is the New Testament time period during which Gentiles have become saved and become one with the Jews (only talking about believers here, of course).

Romans 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God. 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

 

[teamventure]

Please read Zech ch14

I've always loved the following verse, because the description goes out of it's way to stress that the second coming is literal.

Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.
Zechariah 14:3‭-‬4 NIV

Along with this verse:
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
Acts 1:11 NIV

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have studied his word. The difference between me and an Amil, is I believe his word.

Oh, really? Let's put your claim to the test. Do you believe this?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Do you believe that a singular time is coming during which all of the dead will be raised? Or do you believe that dead will be raised at multiple times separated by, say, a thousand plus years?

Do you believe this?

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Do you believe that there is one judgment day where God will judge "everyone" in "the world"? Or do you believe in multiple judgment days?

Do you believe this?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

Peter indicated that the day of the Lord is the day that the Lord will fulfill the promise of His second coming. And he indicated that on that day the Lord will burn up the heavens and the earth. And he indicated that the new heavens and new earth will be the fulfillment of His promise of His second coming. Do you believe all of that or do you believe He will instead allow some mortals to survive His second coming and enter into a so-called earthly millennial kingdom?

 

[teamventure]

Actually the difference between you and Amil is your understanding, or lack thereof for His Word. You're reading the Word of God with a preconceived opinion, and with that opinion in mind you try very hard to force His Word to fit your opinion. In doing this you ignore contradiction your preconceived opinion forces into Scripture. What I've found is that most people don't argue against Amil doctrine because they understand it, and through study of the Word have found it to be false. No, most people argue against Amil doctrine because it does not fit their preconceived opinions or what they have been taught. Rightly discerned the doctrine of Amil is truth without contradiction, the same cannot be said of other doctrinal points of view.

It sounds more like you are projecting that on me. Scripture is meant to be interpreted by what it plainly states, and Amil makes up complicated ideas out of the plain text.

 

[teamventure]

If it's a false doctrine, then prove it. I'm sure you cannot do that, so your words mean nothing.

One of the Amil people on here were the first to say that premil is a false doctrine without proving it so...
The proof against Amil is to read the Bible and believe it to be true. Open up the Bible and start reading and actually believe what it states plainly. That defeats Amil.