One reason why the rapture can not be post-trib

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teamventure

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Zechariah ch14 states that the LORD will not destroy everyone.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;

Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives

And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Isaiah ch2 states the same:
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.



Revelation chapter 20 states the same:
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him,

so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
Hmmm. Perhaps it is saying unsaved people will enter the thousand year kingdom. But most will have the mark of the beast. I don't see why God would allow people with the mark in. There must be another explanation.

Edit: Read from Zech 14. It is saying in context that those who go into the 1,000 year kingdom will be people from the nations that attacked Jerusalem. So they will be saved people.
That is in harmony with the sheep and goat judgement and with the prophecy concerning the mark of the beast that those who take it will be punished.

Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
Zechariah 14:16 NIV
 
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teamventure

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Team,

Most of that thinking comes from "destructive doctrines" introduced in the church by "false teachers" as foretold by Peter, which is from the anti-Christ spirit that was "already at work" during those days. Which was then confirmed by Paul who foretold the believing of a "lie" that would cause "strong delusion." Even Jesus foretold this to be the reality of these days, regarding the same "lie", saying "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

What the "lie" contradicts was also given however, and we need not be deceived. But most have believed the "lie" and it is now the most common belief in all of Christendom. It was Paul who also clarified what the actual truth of the rapture [experience] is, saying, "but each one in his own order." Meaning, the "lie" was a put off of the rapture by those who did not believe what Jesus actually said about coming "soon" and that it would occur individually when He "knocked" on each door--which He said had begun already at the time of Revelation saying "Behold, I stand [present tense] at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me", to instead be a mass event in the distant future.

Which then is complete when the body of flesh dies, just as it was for Jesus, of whom we likewise follow ("but each one in his own order.")

Alternatively, we die...and only then find out the lie and the actual truth.
So you don't believe in a literal physical return of Jesus to this earth?
 

No Pre-TB

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Please stick to the topic in the OP.
This thread is about why or why not there can be a post-trib rapture.
If you want to discuss the pre-trib rapture, there are already plenty of threads for that.
Can you answer these 2:

How many times are the dead judged?
How many times are God’s people rewarded if Christ reward is with Him when he appears?
 

ScottA

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So you don't believe in a literal physical return of Jesus to this earth?

First, it is not what I "believe" that I am speaking of--as I am not one who did not believe and then came to believe, but rather one who did not believe but then came to know. That is my testimony, that not having known God but exhausted every other possible means for help cried out to Him last only by a process of elimination, and He answered. My cry was to Him by name and was for answers, and immediately I was caught up in the spirit, and answers is what I got, after which I was returned.

But now after these many generations of that foretold lie being taught among the church and its leaders, is the morning after such darkness not also foretold? Indeed it is, as Jesus promise also that we would be led unto all truth, and that the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets, before the sounding of the seventh angel. It is by this spirit that I have given explanation to you.

As for "a literal physical return of Jesus to this earth", that is not what is written, but rather misunderstood, and those are the tenets of the lie that was foretold. What and who is "literal" except God, and was not man made rather merely "in the image" of God? Is an "image" "literally" the glory of God, that Jesus should return as clay? And what is "physical" but the "elements" that are to be "destroyed with fervent heat and with fire?" And surely, you have not reconciled all of what is written of Jesus' return, since He said, “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more."

But that leaves many questions--as it should.
 

Timtofly

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Zechariah ch14 states that the LORD will not destroy everyone.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;

Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives

And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Isaiah ch2 states the same:
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.



Revelation chapter 20 states the same:
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him,

so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
That would be the wheat that is left. The wheat put into the barn. That would represent the nations left, but the tares are burned up. The wheat is redeemed from the Nations. Not that Adam's dead flesh is left. But the wheat is not the glorified church in Paradise. The wheat populates the nations. The sheep are the 12 tribes of Israel, not the church. The church was removed while Jesus was on His way to the Mount of Olives. Zechariah 14 is the same event as the 6th Seal in Revelation 6.

That all happens before the 7th Seal, and even the first Trumpet. The Trumpets are the separation of the sheep from the goats. The Sheep are redeemed, but not as the church. They are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom.


You all miss the point the church is removed first. They have been being removed for the last 1993 years, starting with the thief on the Cross, and all the OT redeemed from Abraham's bosom. You know the part where the dead in Christ rise first and no living human can prevent them from entering Paradise, not even with false doctrine that states they cannot enter Paradise physically until only God knows when. Of course God knows when. God declared the thief on the Cross would physically enter Paradise that day. Seems missled human theology does not know when.

God used the term, "that day". God did not say the thief would enjoy Paradise "several thousand years from now". The thief was waiving a palm branch and the first to serve God day and night in that heavenly temple.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

That group started at the Cross, and have come out of the last 1993 years of great tribulation. As opposed to the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom who come out of the Trumpets and Thunders called the Great Tribulation, or Jacob's trouble. The sheep are Jacob. The goats are Jacob, and the trouble is because only a third of Jacob is redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. I don't see half the church as ever getting it right after the 6th Seal.

"Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not."

Get that? 50%, all those post people are not known by God any more. The pre-Jacob's trouble left at the 6th Seal. Those post people are these.

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

That does not mean God has memory issues. That means those virgins were never redeemed. They thought they were, but when they went away looking for oil, during the Trumpets and Thunders, they ended up just stuck in the winepress of God's wrath. They thought they had that post judgment ability to make it out. Now all they have going for them at the 7th Trumpet is perhaps they will chop off their heads. Only God knows that, even though God already said He did not know them, so how will God know if they chop off their heads, if God already declared they did not exist? Quite a post conundrum to this waiting and seeing what happens view on the book of Revelation.

The wheat and the sheep, along with the 144k are on those horses in Revelation 19, that is if they had to wait 42 months. They populate the earth in the Millennium. No one is on the earth, except those waiting on the battlefield with the mark. There is not a group of post everything hiding out in caves somewhere. The church was glorified in the 5th Seal. The sheep redeemed in the Trumpets. The wheat harvested in the Thunders. Even some were beheaded in Satan's 42 months. But no one exists, because God claims they don't exist, still waiting out somewhere on the earth. If they do exist, they are as well as dead.
 

teamventure

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Can you answer these 2:

How many times are the dead judged?
How many times are God’s people rewarded if Christ reward is with Him when he appears?
There are different judgements for different groups of people. We can't be certain about how it all lines up but one thing is sure, it is appointed into man once to die then the judgement.
 

teamventure

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In context, it does not state that those who go into the 1,000 year kingdom will be the unsaved, just that they will be those who are from the nations that attack Jerusalem.

Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
Zechariah 14:16 NIV
 
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Cassandra

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God declared the thief on the Cross would physically enter Paradise that day.
But Jesus didn't enter Paradise that day, and He told the thief that he would be with Him "today". Some translate this as "For I say unto you Today, you shall be with Me in Paradise .
 

rwb

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But Jesus didn't enter Paradise that day, and He told the thief that he would be with Him "today". Some translate this as "For I say unto you Today, you shall be with Me in Paradise .

The correct interpretation for "today" is 'this' day. You are correct Jesus did not physically ascend to paradise (heaven) when He died. But the spirit that gave His body life did return to God when He died. That means the spirit that gave physical life to the thief went there also on that very day. Every man's spirit or breath of life returns to God when our body dies.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Every believer since the first advent of Christ goes to heaven a spirit (living) soul after physical death. This is where we shall be spiritually ALIVE until the seventh trumpet sounds and our spirits will come back with Christ to once again give life to our resurrected immortal & incorruptible bodies on the last day.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
 

rwb

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The spirit is the breath. And Jesus wasn't there that day.

The body of Jesus wasn't there that day. But the spirit that gave His physical body the breath of life returned to the Father. In saying "into thy hands I commend my spirit" is the same as saying I commend my breath of life (spirit). Mankind is made of a body plus the breath of life (spirit) and the two alive is a living soul. When the spirit or breath of life leaves our body at death it returns to the Father, just as the spirit of Christ and the thief did.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Breath of life = nᵉshâmâh חַי chay

נְשָׁמָה nᵉshâmâh, nesh-aw-maw'

from H5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:—blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

חַי chay, khah'-ee
from H2421; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively:— age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, merry, multitude, (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.
 

No Pre-TB

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There are different judgements for different groups of people. We can't be certain about how it all lines up but one thing is sure, it is appointed into man once to die then the judgement.
There are only 2. The first when Christ returns on the last day. The second at the GWTJ.

How many times are we rewarded when Christ comes?
 

No Pre-TB

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I'm thinking once, but I'd have to look into it.
We are rewarded only once, at Christ appearing.

Rev 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works


If we are rewarded only once at his appearing and we are judged once at his appearing, what does scripture say?

Rev 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and
that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great

Scripture testifies that the change to incorruption will happen here.
 

rwb

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We are rewarded only once, at Christ appearing.

Rev 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works


If we are rewarded only once at his appearing and we are judged once at his appearing, what does scripture say?

Rev 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and
that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great

Scripture testifies that the change to incorruption will happen here.

Both the reward for the saints, and the judgment for those in unbelief occurs in a specific order in an hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds.
 

Keraz

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Scripture testifies that the change to incorruption will happen here.
This is wrong and a direct contradiction of Rev 20:11-15, where it will be only at the GWT Judgment that immortality is given to all whose names are found in the Book of Life.
We know from Isaiah 65:20, that people will still die during the Millennium.
 

No Pre-TB

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This is wrong and a direct contradiction of Rev 20:11-15, where it will be only at the GWT Judgment that immortality is given to all whose names are found in the Book of Life.
We know from Isaiah 65:20, that people will still die during the Millennium.
2 Tim 4:1 proves our change happens at Christ appearing in his Kingdom. It doesn't become his Kingdom till the 7th trumpet. And Paul quotes Isaiah 25:8 from 1 Cor 15:54. In the Isaiah passage, that event happens "In this mountain". That Kingdom when Christ begins to reign over the nations.
 

Timtofly

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This is wrong and a direct contradiction of Rev 20:11-15, where it will be only at the GWT Judgment that immortality is given to all whose names are found in the Book of Life.
We know from Isaiah 65:20, that people will still die during the Millennium.
Are you saying all those beheaded, will all die again after being resurrected at the beginning of the Millennium? Or will they remain alive the whole time? Why do people die in the Millennium?