A Spirit of Unbelief

[Johann]

Were the Israelites who perished in the wilderness not saved? Of course they were. They were saved. But saved to what? Saved as an example of what to do...or what not to do? God's ways go far beyond what a dogmatic religious understanding can discern.

You are deflecting big time on a direct question from @Behold -name your source where it says-"Higher walk in Zion"

My source is Utley-and I am not ashamed, since I learn a lot from him and his team-what is the name of your source?
Even though I get blasted from quoting Utley-I am not ashamed.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What if Paul was not writing a self-help manual or a book about the proper religious dogma to agree with. What if he was being miraculously guided and empowered by God to do what is humanly impossible? How do you "apply" that to your life?

What about going before the Lord and seeking Him until He visits you with His grace? Your own personal Pentecost experience.

I don't think that is on the religious agenda.

John the Apostle guarantees that God the Father will answer our prayers if they are according to his (God's) will. Jesus also says that God already knows what we need and will grant it to us even without asking. Paul says that the Spirit already knows the mind of God and will help us in our need.

What I would like to know is this. How are you so confident that I have not had a personal Pentecost experience? Isn't that a bit presumptuous?

Shouldn't we discuss various scripture passages, asking in all humility, "Isn't this what the scriptures say?"

I am aware of the "Higher Life Movement," also known as the "Keswick Movement" or the Wesleyan-Holiness movement" of the early 1800's. Around here, we call this "Star Wars Theology," whereby the initiate is encouraged to "use the force" to walk the "higher life." This isn't Biblical of course. All believers are encouraged to "walk in the Spirit", This does not involve utilizing the power of the Holy Spirit to walk in holiness; Instead, it simply requires being enlightened by the Holy Spirit to walk in holiness. As Paul puts it, we give our bodies as a living sacrifice through renewing our minds.

In more modern times, "using the force" to become holy is a syncretic application of Taoism introduced by Watchman Nee.

 

[ChristisGod]

You are deflecting big time on a direct question from @Behold -name your source where it says-"Higher walk in Zion"

My source is Utley-and I am not ashamed, since I learn a lot from him and his team-what is the name of your source?
Even though I get blasted from quoting Utley-I am not ashamed.

Ditto

 

[ChristisGod]

John the Apostle guarantees that God the Father will answer our prayers if they are according to his (God's) will. Jesus also says that God already knows what we need and will grant it to us even without asking. Paul says that the Spirit already knows the mind of God and will help us in our need.

What I would like to know is this. How are you so confident that I have not had a personal Pentecost experience? Isn't that a bit presumptuous?

Shouldn't we discuss various scripture passages, asking in all humility, "Isn't this what the scriptures say?"

I am aware of the "Higher Life Movement," also known as the "Keswick Movement" or the Wesleyan-Holiness movement" of the early 1800's. Around here, we call this "Star Wars Theology," whereby the initiate is encouraged to "use the force" to walk the "higher life." This isn't Biblical of course. All believers are encouraged to "walk in the Spirit", This does not involve utilizing the power of the Holy Spirit to walk in holiness; Instead, it simply requires being enlightened by the Holy Spirit to walk in holiness. As Paul puts it, we give our bodies as a living sacrifice through renewing our minds.

In more modern times, "using the force" to become holy is a syncretic application of Taoism introduced by Watchman Nee.

Yes good knowledge with the background to such theology. Née was very clever I read a couple of his books in the 80’s.

 

[Hepzibah]

Yes good knowledge with the background to such theology. Née was very clever I read a couple of his books in the 80’s.

I read him as well along with Oswald Chambers, who said the same - submission to Christ in all things, not a select few things is required, and belief that what He obtained on the cross for us, not to be gradually put in practice, but belief in the power of God to deliver us from the power of sin in an instance. Keswick says the old man is put out of action but the Bible says dead.

Keswick is not in line with the teaching of the early church and what I received from those teachers certainly worked - I was in truth delivered from the inability to give in to temptations but was not yet sinless. That step is known as the higher life in reality whereas it was above what Keswick taught and is the reason the Holiness movement got a bad name.

 

[Mr E]

I am aware of the "Higher Life Movement," also known as the "Keswick Movement" or the Wesleyan-Holiness movement" of the early 1800's. Around here, we call this "Star Wars Theology," whereby the initiate is encouraged to "use the force" to walk the "higher life." This isn't Biblical of course. All believers are encouraged to "walk in the Spirit", This does not involve utilizing the power of the Holy Spirit to walk in holiness; Instead, it simply requires being enlightened by the Holy Spirit to walk in holiness. As Paul puts it, we give our bodies as a living sacrifice through renewing our minds.

This is great!

 

[Episkopos]

John the Apostle guarantees that God the Father will answer our prayers if they are according to his (God's) will. Jesus also says that God already knows what we need and will grant it to us even without asking. Paul says that the Spirit already knows the mind of God and will help us in our need.

What I would like to know is this. How are you so confident that I have not had a personal Pentecost experience? Isn't that a bit presumptuous?

Shouldn't we discuss various scripture passages, asking in all humility, "Isn't this what the scriptures say?"

I am aware of the "Higher Life Movement," also known as the "Keswick Movement" or the Wesleyan-Holiness movement" of the early 1800's. Around here, we call this "Star Wars Theology," whereby the initiate is encouraged to "use the force" to walk the "higher life." This isn't Biblical of course. All believers are encouraged to "walk in the Spirit", This does not involve utilizing the power of the Holy Spirit to walk in holiness; Instead, it simply requires being enlightened by the Holy Spirit to walk in holiness. As Paul puts it, we give our bodies as a living sacrifice through renewing our minds.

In more modern times, "using the force" to become holy is a syncretic application of Taoism introduced by Watchman Nee.

The problem with any movement is that the truth never becomes that popular. Instead people try to "fake it till they make it. "

All movements do this. There is a pressure to be like everyone else....whereas it is God who decides who He will translate into the higher walk.

What I teach are the ways of God...two different levels based on the two biblical testaments.

There is a walk in basic righteousness....where MOST believers are... in submission to God in the most basic way...being meek, poor in spirit, having the fear of the Lord. Those are the righteous brethren. I warn the many who have forsaken the humility of the righteous brethren and turned instead to religious hubris, denying both righteousness and holiness.

Then there are those precious few saints...who give direction to the church...through the ministry of prophets and spiritual teachers.

Many have tried to clone this spiritual order...without success. The pessimists among us have opted instead for a man-made institution that has NOTHING to do with the bible...and people think that's better. Talk about a human-inspired movement. God works through individuals. But the devil is NOT omnipresent...no, he needs systems, institutions to rule over men with.

What is seen as safe is man-made religiosity. That is seen as good. Anyone who prophesies flattering self-serving things is lauded and promoted in that system.
But try speaking any truth....

 

[ChristisGod]

This is great!

Yes it is !

 

[Behold]

- submission to Christ in all things, not a select few things is required,

You wrote that """SUBMISSION is Required"

Is required before God will give you The Gift of Salvation, that is a 'free gift'. ?????????

""""""But the free GIFT is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.""""


Where is a verse in any bible that says "submit to Christ, in all things, and if you agree, then come to the Cross and receive the Gift of Salvation".

Listen, you dont SUBMIT< to get a FREE GIFT.
You dont ...AGREE to DO, to perform, to receive GOD's GIFT of Salvation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What I teach are the ways of God...two different levels based on the two biblical testaments.

There is a walk in basic righteousness....where MOST believers are... in submission to God in the most basic way...being meek, poor in spirit, having the fear of the Lord. Those are the righteous brethren. I warn the many who have forsaken the humility of the righteous brethren and turned instead to religious hubris, denying both righteousness and holiness.

Then there are those precious few saints...who give direction to the church...through the ministry of prophets and spiritual teachers.

Many have tried to clone this spiritual order...without success. The pessimists among us have opted instead for a man-made institution that has NOTHING to do with the bible...and people think that's better. Talk about a human-inspired movement. God works through individuals. But the devil is NOT omnipresent...no, he needs systems, institutions to rule over men with.

What is seen as safe is man-made religiosity. That is seen as good. Anyone who prophesies flattering self-serving things is lauded and promoted in that system.
But try speaking any truth....

I fully understand your point concerning man-made religiosity. You present other categories and distinctions that seem unfamiliar to the Bible. The concept of "basic righteousness" seems odd and unfamiliar.

 

[ChristisGod]

I fully understand your point concerning man-made religiosity. You present other categories and distinctions that seem unfamiliar to the Bible. The concept of "basic righteousness" seems odd and unfamiliar.

correct there is either self righteousness of the righteousness of God.

 

[Hepzibah]

You wrote that """SUBMISSION is Required"

Is required before God will give you The Gift of Salvation, that is a 'free gift'. ?????????

""""""But the free GIFT is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.""""


Where is a verse in any bible that says "submit to Christ, in all things, and if you agree, then come to the Cross and receive the Gift of Salvation".

Listen, you dont SUBMIT< to get a FREE GIFT.
You dont ...AGREE to DO, to perform, to receive GOD's GIFT of Salvation.

I'm not talking about our first encounter with Christ where we learn we are sinners and that God is real and loves us. You can call it salvation if you like. I don't.

I am discussing the 'second' encounter where we are confronted with our sins, if indeed we have not quenched that work by the Holy Spirit. Many are ignorant of it for that cause.

 

[Behold]

I'm not talking about our first encounter with Christ where we learn we are sinners and that God is real and loves us. You can call it salvation if you like. I don't.

Salvation isn't learning that you are a sinner and that God is up there knowing it, and loves you anyway.

Salvation is where you come to the Cross as a sinner, trusting in the redemption that is Christ's Blood and Death, that is the Blood Atonement, that is the New Covenant.
If you do that, by "Faith"... Then "faith is counted by God as Righteousness".

A.) Then God will give you the "imputed righteousness", and also perform by the Holy Spirit the NEW Birth, that causes you to be "born again".

This is to become a "new Creation" "in Christ" as "the righteousness of God, IN Christ'.

What is That one?

= A CHRISTian.

 

[Hepzibah]

Salvation isn't learning that you are a sinner and that God is up there knowing it, and loves you anyway.

Salvation is where you come to the Cross as a sinner, trusting in the redemption that is Christ's Blood and Death, that is the Blood Atonement, that is the New Covenant.
If you do that, by "Faith"... Then "faith is counted by God as Righteousness".

A.) Then God will give you the "imputed righteousness", and also perform by the Holy Spirit the NEW Birth, that causes you to be "born again".

This is to become a "new Creation" "in Christ" as "the righteousness of God, IN Christ'.

What is That one?

= A CHRISTian.

Yes I missed that part out thinking it was assumed. We then trust in Christ for our redemption. At that point we are given

John 1:12

King James Version

​

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Not yet sons of God but have been given the power toi become which occurs later if we submit entirely to His rulership.

 

[CadyandZoe]

correct there is either self righteousness of the righteousness of God.

I once had a friend named Ron Julian and he wrote a book called "Righteous Sinners" wherein he identified four distinct meanings of the term "righteous" in the Bible.

Righteous:
1. Morally good -- conforming to God's view of right and wrong
2. Blameless -- doing what the law requires
3. Right with God (translated Justified) -- pardoned
4. Inwardly right. -- a spiritual condition

By habit, I attempt to sort these out as I read the Bible. Sometimes it's easy; other times it's hard. :)

 

[amigo de christo]

I thank the many here who have faithfully portrayed the spirit of unbelief. I just hope you all don't get carried away and start believing what you are writing.

Through Christ who strengthens me . PAUL BELEIVED IN JESUS CHRIST
and he also taught others TO BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST . YOU DONT
You are nothing like paul at all . As far as i can do all things THROUGH CHRIST who strengthens me
THIS IS TRUE , BUT ONLY FOR THOSE WHO FIRST BELIEVE ON HIM and TELL OTHERS TO DO THE SAME .
SEE if men like you come along and try and put the horse in the cart and tell folks other religons and peoples
DONT have to believe on him , preach nutting but anti christ religoin .
GOTTA FIRST PUT the HORSE IN FRONT OF the CART EPI .
You do nothing more than preach yet another web , another path way in to what the lie teaches .
THE LIE which sayeth , there is no need to BELIEVE ON CHRIST
we can do this without FAITH IN HIM . Epi you are caught up in this large web .
Now visuliaze this . This web is spun by one . but its webbing reachings out to all .
It spins each web out to every and all tribe tongue , religoin . Giving the idea
that the web spun will lead them to the CENTER of that web of whom the weaver sayeth is GOD .
But in the end all who traveled that web spun to the center , GONNA FIND OUT
OH MY , IT WASNT GOD SPINNING THAT WEB AT ALL , IT WAS THE DRAGON and now we are DOOMED in perdtion
as the fires feast upon them .
I have watched this thing epi , FOR a long time my friend . IT KNOWN how to snag every false religoin
into this all inclusive ideal of GOD . to a baptist it came in under that mindset
to a mormon it came in under that mindset
to a muslim , to a buddist , and now has convinced many that IT IS GOD and that they will soon have
utopia . GOT BAD NEWS EPI , ITS UTOPIA ends as does its master , IN PERDTION and flames of destruction .
KEEP ON OMITTING THE DIRE NEED TO FIRST BELEIVE ON CHRIST and it will be YOUR END .
Today is the ninth of september in the year of our LORD two thousand and twenty three . YOU CANT say you were not warned epi .
HECK i been warning you as well as have others long before even TODAY .

 

[amigo de christo]

Salvation isn't learning that you are a sinner and that God is up there knowing it, and loves you anyway.

Salvation is where you come to the Cross as a sinner, trusting in the redemption that is Christ's Blood and Death, that is the Blood Atonement, that is the New Covenant.
If you do that, by "Faith"... Then "faith is counted by God as Righteousness".

A.) Then God will give you the "imputed righteousness", and also perform by the Holy Spirit the NEW Birth, that causes you to be "born again".

This is to become a "new Creation" "in Christ" as "the righteousness of God, IN Christ'.

What is That one?

= A CHRISTian.

The problem is we got many ians . not CHRIST ians . the problem is we got many AINTS , not saints .
because the problem is we got another love song getting sung by another jesus or another god .
As for me , I shall point to the ONLY ONE WHO CAN SAVE and HOLLER LOUDLY and DAILY
YE MUST BELIEVE , YE MUST HAVE FAITH IN HIM . cause if one knoweth not that , IT DONT REALLY MATTER
what they seem to know , ITS ALL VAIN my friend . SOMETHING EPI and the all inclusive merging false love religoin KNOWS NUTTING ABOUT . Time we open bibles . TIME we learn THAT GOD , THAT CHRIST and ER word the apostles also wrote in letters .
For if any cometh and preaches another jesus , another gospel , ITS VAIN and the end of it IS DESTRUCTION .

 

[Behold]

The problem is we got many ians . not CHRIST ians . the problem is we got many AINTS , not saints .
because the problem is we got another love song getting sung by another jesus or another god .
As for me , I shall point to the ONLY ONE WHO CAN SAVE and HOLLER LOUDLY and DAILY
YE MUST BELIEVE , YE MUST HAVE FAITH IN HIM . cause if one knoweth not that , IT DONT REALLY MATTER
what they seem to know , ITS ALL VAIN my friend . SOMETHING EPI and the all inclusive merging false love religoin KNOWS NUTTING ABOUT . Time we open bibles . TIME we learn THAT GOD , THAT CHRIST and ER word the apostles also wrote in letters .
For if any cometh and preaches another jesus , another gospel , ITS VAIN and the end of it IS DESTRUCTION .

God became one of us, to offer salvation as : John 3:16

John 3:17

2nd Corinthians 5:19

Romans 4:8

 

[amigo de christo]

I call every single person today to record this .
Do you all really think a jew that denies JESUS loveth GOD .
NOPE .
DO you think if a jew claims to know torah , moses and the prophets and yet heareth the gospel and DENIES JESUS as the CHRIST
that they really heard or knew torah the prophets or even moses . HECK NO .
Cause had they believed moses , THEY WOULD HAVE BELEIVED JESUS CHRIST . for not only did moses
write of JESUS , so too did other prophets and the law itself POINTES TO JESUS CHRIST .
SO Now that we have this established .
HOW THE HECK can a muslim , who though they too claim to follow moses , abraham , the prophets
YET DENY JESUS as THE CHRIST , as the SON of GOD , KNOW OR LOVE GOD .
BINGO .
and any other false religoin which is ALL OTHER RELIGOINS and athiesm , KNOWS NOT GOD ETIHER .
Because mark my words . Mark these words well .
Mark them , remember them and stamp them upon the walls of thine heart .
IF A MAN DENIES JESUS AS THE CHRIST , HE IS A LIAR , HE IS AN ANTI CHRIST
HE has neither the SON OR THE FATHER . and i DIDNT SAY THAT FIRST . WE BETTER WAKE THE HECK UP and fast
and get in the BIBLE .

 

[Episkopos]

I fully understand your point concerning man-made religiosity. You present other categories and distinctions that seem unfamiliar to the Bible. The concept of "basic righteousness" seems odd and unfamiliar.

Have you read the OT? Read Ezekiel chapters 18 and 33. What has been lost by the modern church in an effort to justify people is the basic righteousness that is stated many times...but is ignored.

An example in the NT is spoken by Peter...

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

And Paul says we need instruction in righteousness from the OT scriptures.

Is Peter talking about saints in Acts 10? No, Saints are PLEASING to God ...not just accepted. The righteous are scarcely saved (Peter says this)...and the saints are abundantly saved. It's the difference between the Bride and the guests who attend.

Think about it.