Do you believe Spirit baptism replaces water baptism?

[gpresdo]

Yes it is, but scripture clarifies "made without human hands":

• Colossians 2:11-15 [NKJV] 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with [Him] through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

... It is the ONE BAPTISM that saves:

• Ephesians 4:4-6 [NKJV] 4 [There is] one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

... it is performed in SPIRIT and by the Holy Spirit:

• John 3:5-8 [NKJV] 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Then we must conclude...you do not believe in the Bible.

Baptism is Required;

Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins....

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins......


Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 10;47-48...
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 19:4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”

John 3; 22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bible).

 

[gpresdo]

Then we must conclude...you do not believe in the Bible.

Baptism is Required;

Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins....

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins......


Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 10;47-48...
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 19:4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”

John 3; 22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the bible).

 

[atpollard]

OH...then u do not believe in the Bible.
This is a bible forum.

You mean except for post: #1,474
(where I refute your nonsense with 3 different parts of scripture presented in CONTEXT rather than just quote mined for "proof text sound bites")

However, do not let me stand in your way: Post that empty rhetoric and sling that mud with a WIDE brush ... it shows your Christian "love" and "skill" and handling God's word.

 

[atpollard]

Then we must conclude...you do not believe in the Bible.

No, we need only conclude that you are not "listening", but only "waiting to speak". [There is a difference.]

That being the case, until you decide to address the actual points raised and scripture presented in post #1,474, this conversation between us is on indefinite [PAUSE].

 

[CadyandZoe]

I am confused how anyone gets baptism in John 3.

1. Jesus said, Unless a man is born again...(a second time, born from above)
2. He then explains there must be two births.. one of water (flesh) and one of spirit (spirit).
3. The second birth is what Jesus means when he said one must be born again

we are all spiritually dead, in Adam all die.

we who were dead in trespasses and sin were made live....

this is that new birth or regeneration Jesus was speaking of.

Water baptism is not even in the mind of Jesus when he says these things.. In fact, after he tells him WHAT it means, He tells him HOW to be born again.

and not one time did he mention water baptism.

Well, I've looked at this issue from both sides and neither side is very satisfying. So personally, I would like to float a proposal and see what you say about it. Please feel free to disagree, but either way, can you tell me what you think?

It's possible that Jesus is referring to Isaiah 44:1-5, since he's speaking to a Jewish person who likely has extensive knowledge of Hebrew scriptures. In this passage, Isaiah discusses the restoration of Israel through two stages: first, the land will be restored (water), and then Jacob and his descendants will be restored (spirit.) Jesus says that Nicodemus should have known about this.

Verse 3
Isaiah describes the restoration of the land as "I will pour out water on the thirsty land . . ." and he describes the restoration of the people as "I will pour out my spirit on your offspring . . ."

This is a common theme in the prophets: associating the restoration of the land with the restoration of the people.

Anyway, this is just an idea. When you get time let me know what you think.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I really appreciate your concern-I am not handicapped-it was the urgent plea from a member.
I am between a rock and a hard place at the moment here in South Africa-here where I am "Churches" are lukewarm and believe it or not-the Muslim Community is very helpful to the poor and the needy.
I don't know of any Lutheran Churches nearby as I don't have a car and my son is in need of constant daily care-

Again-thank you @CadyandZoe
Johann.

I wrote to Jim, the pastor of a Lutheran Church in Oregon and this is what he wrote back.

Lutheran Christians do not insist on any particular mode of baptism. We understand baptism to be the application of water, regardless of the quantity. That is why generally we baptize by sprinkling. But if this gentleman would find immersion, more meaningful, I don’t see why he doesn’t have friends or family that would not be able to lower him into the water. I would also want to explain to this gentleman that baptism is one of the means of grace, and therefore a very important act in which God is extending his grace to him for cleansing and the forgiveness of sins, and the hope of eternal life.​

​

Hopefully, you find this helpful.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Goodbye, I'm done with you. You make NO sense and don't know what you're talking about.

You will find out the hard way one day I knew exactly what I was talking about.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, I've looked at this issue from both sides and neither side is very satisfying. So personally, I would like to float a proposal and see what you say about it. Please feel free to disagree, but either way, can you tell me what you think?

It's possible that Jesus is referring to Isaiah 44:1-5, since he's speaking to a Jewish person who likely has extensive knowledge of Hebrew scriptures. In this passage, Isaiah discusses the restoration of Israel through two stages: first, the land will be restored (water), and then Jacob and his descendants will be restored (spirit.) Jesus says that Nicodemus should have known about this.

Verse 3
Isaiah describes the restoration of the land as "I will pour out water on the thirsty land . . ." and he describes the restoration of the people as "I will pour out my spirit on your offspring . . ."

This is a common theme in the prophets: associating the restoration of the land with the restoration of the people.

Anyway, this is just an idea. When you get time let me know what you think.

This is called trying to look for things that is not there

Jesus said unless one is born again..

Nicodemus sounded like the did nto understand

so jesus answered.

Born of flesh. Flesh

born of spirit. Spirit

Then he tells him HOW one is born again in the rest of the chapter. And not once is water baptism mentioned or even hinted at.

so explain how it could possibly be water baptism..

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is called trying to look for things that is not there

Jesus said unless one is born again..

Nicodemus sounded like the did nto understand

so jesus answered.

Born of flesh. Flesh

born of spirit. Spirit

Then he tells him HOW one is born again in the rest of the chapter. And not once is water baptism mentioned or even hinted at.

so explain how it could possibly be water baptism..

In John 3, I don't believe Jesus was referring to John's baptism or Christian baptism. If he was speaking literally about water, then I think he was referring to the Jewish purification ritual [Mikvah]. This is supported by John's mention of the purification ritual in verse 25.

Peter also seems to have the Mikvah in mind when he speaks about the washing of the body (purification) in his first epistle.

1 Peter 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ . . .

In this passage, Apostle Peter appears to reference the Mikveh, which involves cleansing the body of physical impurities. However, he thinks it is important to note that our salvation does not come from a literal Mikveh. Instead, we are saved through an internal "Mikveh" that involves purifying our conscience.

And I thank you very much for your response to my proposal. Sometimes I just need to bounce ideas around with someone else.

 

[Grailhunter]

Hi Grailhunter,

Thank you. In a previous post this is what Bible Highlighter said:

No offense, but I believe history when it talks about how Catholics used to kill even their own if they attempted to take the Scriptures to read for themselves. This is part of the reason why the Catholics wanted to kill King James and the translators of the KJB with a super bomb. They wanted to kill them while they were translating it. Seeing that did not work, the Catholics changed tactics. Instead of killing people, they set out to take the Word of God away from people without taking a life. The Vatican made a league with the United Bible Societies in the formation of the Nestle and Aland Critical New Testament Greek text (Which is where all Modern Bibles come from). They used the Westcott and Hort text (Who were also into Catholicism) as one of their stronger textual sources. This was all an attempt to get men away from the King James Bible and it worked. Even the Catholic book that mentions forbidden works says that the King James Bible is among the list of forbidden works to read. Of course, they changed this so as to hide what they were really up to. But the book of forbidden writings still exists. I can show a scan of it for you here. Catholics even have told me that I cannot understand Scripture. They said I need a Catholic priest to help me to understand it. This again is a modern day tactic to get people away from the Word of God. That’s why you don’t know that statue bowing is idolatry, and why praying to the dead saints is Necromancy.

Do you, Grailhunter, agree with Bible Highlighter? Because everything you wrote to me had NOTHING to do with what Bible Highlighter said...


Also, I stated to Bible Highlighter that "The Church didn't kill people for reading Scripture. That is a complete lie. You should learn Christian history....". That statement apparently is what instigated your off the subject rant to me. You didn't even address the subject in your rant. Would you care to address the subject at hand.....


Mary

No he is wrong and he is wrong about most things. A lot of the KJV worshippers have their own history and the KJV is different enough from the scriptures that it is its own religion.

Before Emperor Constantine befriended Christianity and placed the power of the Roman Empire behind the Church......Christianly was a renegade religion .....no church buildings.....worshiping in the night in hiding.

After Christianity became the official state religion of Rome anyone that disagreed with the Church was an enemy of the state. Like I have said, Bishop were not fighting men and they did not want blood on their hands. So the killings were done by the Empire.

As far as people reading the scriptures......it simply was not available to them. Bibles had a value that would be equal to around ten years wages ....typical wages of the time, because they were hand copied and illustrated by artists. And the public simply did not have access to these Bibles.

The Church had the civil authorities make it illegal to translate the scriptures or for anyone to have a Bible in their possession. There were people that died for it, but mostly they just went to prison. The bottom line is that the Church wanted to be the one to interpret the scriptures.....they literally wanted to have control of what people believed and of salvation itself......One of the ways they accomplished this was that only Catholic baptisms were recognized as meaning anything. Back then baptism was kinda like circumcision for Jews....you were not considered a Christian unless you were baptized.....that was a belief that was shared by both the Catholics and the Protestants. You had to be baptized to be a Christian.

The Luther Bible and the William Tyndale Bible and the Geneva Bible and King James Bible were all translated from inaccurate and unreliable sources and they were influenced by the popular beliefs of the time period and that includes the Bible that the Catholics were using. But do not get me wrong it needed to happen, Christians needed to have access to the Bible and something was better than nothing. With the invention of the Guttenberg Press they were able to print Bibles and get them out to the public.....it took time and they were still expensive but not as expensive as before.

And there were civil authorities under the command of the Church that were fighting all this.....from the 15th century on the Catholic Church had battles on several fronts. Wars in general were occurring that the Church was involved with, the Church had the Renaissance to contend with and deaths occurred due to that effort. Book burnings, Bible burnings, people burnings, but all this was done by civil authorities. At the same time you have the witch hysteria and witch-hunts and the Inquisitions going on which in itself has complicated historical issues. It is hard to divide all this up in history, whether it was the initiatives of the Church or various initiatives of various countries. Then you have the history of Bloody Mary and the 30 year war between the Catholics and Protestants, which was more than a religious war. Again there you have initiatives of the Church and various monarchs. And again to say the Catholics tortured or killed people would be incorrect, they let someone else do that.....no blood on the hands of the clergy. During the witch-hunts and Inquisitions the clergy would supervise and document the tortures and executions but usually did not touch the victims.

I said all this to set the conditions of what is going on and the Bible is at the center of it. The Church thought that the Renaissance was a threat to the Bible and Christianity and the scriptures were only to be interpreted by the Church, so no one should have a Bible. But the Protestants blew that lid off. After the Protestant reform .....after....actually during the Protestant reform as the Protestant denominations started to multiply the Catholic Church went through a series of reforms which included the Jesuits. And they have their own history.

So yes, people died for having Bibles or trying to produce Bibles. By the 17th century the Protestants were in such numbers that the Catholic Church went from the offensive to the defensive just trying to survive. In some countries they were not welcome and they were not welcome in the American colonies. The French Revolution was as much a war against the monarchy as a war against the Church. A lot of priests were killed and churches took over and converted to the "goddess of reason" which has an interesting history.

As time went on more and more actual copies of the original texts were discovered and the dead sea scrolls back them up, so modern translations are produced from the actual Hebrew and Koiné Greek scriptures. Which are much more accurate than the KJV. The KJV has some serious issues and you will find that the cults through history have always used the KJV.

For anyone that is alive now there are very few that can remember restrictions about people reading the scriptures unless you are living in a communist country. And the modern "local" Catholic Churches are better than ever before, but like I say, I would not give two cents for the Vatican.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

In John 3, I don't believe Jesus was referring to John's baptism or Christian baptism. If he was speaking literally about water, then I think he was referring to the Jewish purification ritual [Mikvah]. This is supported by John's mention of the purification ritual in verse 25.

Peter also seems to have the Mikvah in mind when he speaks about the washing of the body (purification) in his first epistle.

1 Peter 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ . . .

In this passage, Apostle Peter appears to reference the Mikveh, which involves cleansing the body of physical impurities. However, he thinks it is important to note that our salvation does not come from a literal Mikveh. Instead, we are saved through an internal "Mikveh" that involves purifying our conscience.

And I thank you very much for your response to my proposal. Sometimes I just need to bounce ideas around with someone else.

There was only one kind of water he would be speaking about

whoever has witnessed a child being born would understand what that water is.

there are two births

born again (a second time)

Flesh and spirit

water and spirit

the first birth is physical birth, birth of the flesh or birth out of water

the second birth is the spiritual birth.


Jesus told them how to do it.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.


18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus did not mention water baptism. Because it is not in the passage.. nor is it on Jesus mind

 

[CadyandZoe]

There was only one kind of water he would be speaking about

whoever has witnessed a child being born would understand what that water is.

there are two births

born again (a second time)

Flesh and spirit

water and spirit

the first birth is physical birth, birth of the flesh or birth out of water

the second birth is the spiritual birth.


Jesus told them how to do it.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.


18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus did not mention water baptism. Because it is not in the passage.. nor is it on Jesus mind

Good explanation.
I agree, Jesus isn't talking about water baptism.
I mentioned the Mikvah because it shows up in verse 25.

 

[Grailhunter]

Good explanation.
I agree, Jesus isn't talking about water baptism.
I mentioned the Mikvah because it shows up in verse 25.

But can you see anyone taking about going over and thinking about Baptism and what it looks like

Christ and the Apostles never said water baptism is not necessary.

 

[CadyandZoe]

There was only one kind of water he would be speaking about

whoever has witnessed a child being born would understand what that water is.

there are two births

born again (a second time)

Flesh and spirit

water and spirit

the first birth is physical birth, birth of the flesh or birth out of water

the second birth is the spiritual birth.


Jesus told them how to do it.

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.


18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus did not mention water baptism. Because it is not in the passage.. nor is it on Jesus mind

One more thing that supports your view. Jesus responded with the water/spirit observation right after Nicodemus mentioned the mother's womb.

 

[CadyandZoe]

But can you see anyone taking about going over and thinking about Baptism and what it looks like

Christ and the Apostles never said water baptism is not necessary.

That's a tricky question, and here is why. Baptism is symbolic and the interpretation of the symbol is key to the question of whether or not it is necessary. During the time of Jesus and the apostles, baptism was an initiation rite indicating one's desire and commitment to follow Jesus.

Today, more than one interpretation of Baptism exists. Do parents need to baptize their children? No. Babies can't pledge loyalty to Jesus Christ or make a confession of faith. Do prospects need to receive baptism to become members of a church? Maybe, but becoming a member of a church is NOT required for salvation.

On the other hand, since baptism is a pledge to follow Jesus, the essential salvific condition is an actual, genuine, authentic walk with Jesus. Whether the pledge is objectified in a ritual is not essential and is beside the point. Justification is by faith -- not ritual. There is no sacrament that will induce God to grant grace. God sees the heart.

 

[Grailhunter]

That's a tricky question, and here is why. Baptism is symbolic and the interpretation of the symbol is key to the question of whether or not it is necessary. During the time of Jesus and the apostles, baptism was an initiation rite indicating one's desire and commitment to follow Jesus.

Today, more than one interpretation of Baptism exists. Do parents need to baptize their children? No. Babies can't pledge loyalty to Jesus Christ or make a confession of faith. Do prospects need to receive baptism to become members of a church? Maybe, but becoming a member of a church is NOT required for salvation.

On the other hand, since baptism is a pledge to follow Jesus, the essential salvific condition is an actual, genuine, authentic walk with Jesus. Whether the pledge is objectified in a ritual is not essential and is beside the point. Justification is by faith -- not ritual. There is no sacrament that will induce God to grant grace. God sees the heart.

The spiritual side of water baptism is not symbolic.

As far as God the Father and God the Son are concerned, the person that comes out that water is a new person with a clean slate. Nothing that person did before that matters. As far as the biblical era and early Christianity and through period of the Church and then in into the Protestant reform you were not a Christian until you were water baptized. For the Protestants this was a very important thing. Not one until the new age Christians came about, no one ever questioned water baptism and I would not put a lot of stock in the new age movement.

Ss far as baptizing children I am not sure of the benefits and they are not making a choice but as far as baptizing them as chrisining or a dedication, I do not see the harm in it.

 

[gpresdo]

No, we need only conclude that you are not "listening", but only "waiting to speak". [There is a difference.]

That being the case, until you decide to address the actual points raised and scripture presented in post #1,474, this conversation between us is on indefinite [PAUSE].

That's ok......i will stick with the Bible as support.

 

[gpresdo]

This is called trying to look for things that is not there

Jesus said unless one is born again..

Nicodemus sounded like the did nto understand

so jesus answered.

Born of flesh. Flesh

born of spirit. Spirit

Then he tells him HOW one is born again in the rest of the chapter. And not once is water baptism mentioned or even hinted at.

so explain how it could possibly be water baptism..

None of your posts have refuted the Bible.

It is sad that you do not believe the Bible;

---

---

---

Baptism is Required



Peter 3: 21.... whereunto even baptism doth also now save us...

John 3:5 .......Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Acts 2;38-....Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22;16... And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


Galations 3:26...... For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

KJV Marrk 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

KJV Matthew 3:14... But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15. Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfil all rightesousness. Then He suffered Him.

KJV Matthew 28:19..... Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Acts 10;47-48...
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 8:12-18: But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Acts 19:4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.”

John 3; 22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Quote from Billy Graham that is note worthy;
....Also, to clarify I did not say remission of sin takes place at repentance. Scripture makes it clear that it occurs upon obedience to water baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus. Each is a step of faith, along with receiving the Holy Ghost, in the process of one's spiritual rebirth

.."Paul explains the doctrinal significance of what occurs when one is baptized.His explanation is found in his letter to those who had already been obedient to the command.

Paul tells the Roman Christians what actually occurred when they were/are baptized; they were baptized into His death. Being buried with Jesus into His death resulted in their sin being destroyed.

Even though Paul explains this concept, the NEW AGE RELIGION TEACHING is......... that water baptism is nothing other than a mere public display.......... And that is so far removed from the truth.

Keep in mind that Satan knows if he can continue to perpetuate that lie ...... he can keep people from entering the kingdom of God. Thus He has proven scripture which says ...in the end times there will be ...great delusions.....they are here.

Conclusion....teaching that baptism is not necessary is violation of Rev. 22;19.... And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. 20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Also two other books of the Bible).

 

[gpresdo]

iNo, we need only conclude that you are not "listening", but only "waiting to speak". [There is a difference.]

That being the case, until you decide to address the actual points raised and scripture presented in post #1,474, this conversation between us is on indefinite [PAUSE].

Why would you listen to me....it is the Bible you are hearing...not me? Geesscch. I did not write the Bible. God had it written the way He wanted it presented.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The spiritual side of water baptism is not symbolic.

As far as God the Father and God the Son are concerned, the person that comes out that water is a new person with a clean slate. Nothing that person did before that matters. As far as the biblical era and early Christianity and through period of the Church and then in into the Protestant reform you were not a Christian until you were water baptized. For the Protestants this was a very important thing. Not one until the new age Christians came about, no one ever questioned water baptism and I would not put a lot of stock in the new age movement.

Ss far as baptizing children I am not sure of the benefits and they are not making a choice but as far as baptizing them as chrisining or a dedication, I do not see the harm in it.

I respectfully disagree with your premise. I agree that in the eyes of men, a "Christian" is water-baptized, and I agree that water baptism was required by the early church. However, water baptism is not a means to grace as you suggest. There is no guarantee that the person who comes out of the baptismal pool is a new person with a clean slate. Water baptism is representational -- a public testimony that the initiate pledges to follow Jesus. But that testimony may be true or it may be false. What matters is what God sees.

The blessing of justification falls on those who have an honest spirit and a contrite heart. (Romans 4, Psalm 32:2, Psalm 51:16-17)