Forgiveness vs Atonement

[Episkopos]

This video marks one year since we began this podcast. Please have a listen..and like, subscribe and comment on the channel. If this very simple principle could be understood we would see a rise in holiness in the church and a vast reduction in future judgment against those who are no longer able to hear sound doctrine.

 

[Nancy]

I did enjoy this one Epi! Thanks. Still don't see me as "holy" though. Saving for later to re watch/listen to.
BTW-heard from Jen at all?

 

[Episkopos]

I did enjoy this one Epi! Thanks. Still don't see me as "holy" though. Saving for later to re watch/listen to.
BTW-heard from Jen at all?

No...not in a while. And glad you liked it! :)

 

[Wrangler]

I'll give it a listen when I can. Probably Friday.

 

[Laurina]

Solid, crucial, and powerful message!

 

[faithfulness]

Thank you for another high-resolution understanding of scripture that includes 1 John 1:9. My thoughts went into debate-mode after many years of low resolution understanding of a go-to scripture.



"In the end, what touches God's heart is that our own hearts would be ever sensitive to His." [Morin, JF. The Sum of All Possibilities in Christ pg. 401].

 

[Wrangler]

Epi,

After watching part of the video, I noticed you parsed Forgiveness vs Atonement with righteous and holiness. Is it accurate to summarize as forgiveness is about us, atonement is about God and both are about holy or divinely inspired relationships?

 

[Episkopos]

Epi,

After watching part of the video, I noticed you parsed Forgiveness vs Atonement with righteous and holiness.

Thanks for your comments. Yes, forgiveness is based on righteousness. And atonement is based on holiness.

Is it accurate to summarize as forgiveness is about us, atonement is about God and both are about holy or divinely inspired relationships?

This is where we have to see the difference between what we do and what God does....each according to the power we have.

We each have the power to forgive...to be merciful...to treat others as we would want to be treated. We are created in God's image and our conscience allows us to understand mercy and forgiveness...and to act on that. This is a standard that is for all people, whether believers or not. One would think that a believer is MORE merciful than unbelievers. But in many cases, believers have learned to judge others harshly. This goes against our prime directive to love others as ourselves. AS we judge so we will also be judged. This is crucial to understand...even before understanding the gospel and the higher calling that is through grace.

God is by nature merciful because of His righteousness. He always has been so. He doesn't change. But being forgiven and walking with God in holiness and purity is a whole other thing.

The law of Moses was primarily about holiness and ceremonial purity. That system is now obsolete based on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We have NO power unto holiness of ourselves.So we are trapped in a righteousness standard...as human beings.

Enter Jesus who allows us to enter into Himself and bear HIS honour before the Father in holiness. His holiness....never our own. For those who are in Christ...it is HIS righteousness we walk in....in a power from heaven called grace.

 

[Episkopos]

"Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate." Heb. 13:12

(does it say, that He might forgive them with His own blood?)

 

[Lizbeth]

There is no forgiveness without the atonement. Why...because God's Law has to be satisfied/fulfilled. He cannot go back on His word. It is a life for a life. And there is no remission/forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood. Atonement means to reconcile....like in math reconciling both sides of the equation so they are equal. Reconciling a debt by paying the exact amount owing. In this case Someone offered to pay it for us by making His life an atonement. And a sacrifice has to be offered and eaten (ingested/received) by the same person in order for it to apply to them. Bring the Lamb, offer it to God, let it be roasted on the altar and then it had to be eaten. Eat the Word of God and drink of His Spirit in order to be forgiven and saved.

 

[Episkopos]

There is no forgiveness without the atonement.

False. Why can you forgive others without any blood being spilled? Are you more merciful than God? Is your god that legalistic and unmerciful. So you are speaking a GREAT falsehood....that prevents you from any kind of deeper truth.

It's funny how you ignore the bible at every turn to promote falsehoods.

Why...because God's Law has to be satisfied/fulfilled. He cannot go back on His word.

You "go back on His word" all the time based on your ignorance of God and His ways. Only those verses that fit your ideology do you see as "His word". Why is it not God's word in the bible if you ignore it?

So you are self-deceived...following your own carnal mind. But your dishonesty is well rehearsed.

t is a life for a life. And there is no remission/forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood.

No. There is no holiness or freedom from sin without the shedding of blood...a life for a life. The life is in the blood. Unless we lose our lives we cannot enter into Christ and experience His resurrection life.

So WE give up our life to GET HIS life. A life for a life.

Atonement means to reconcile....like in math reconciling both sides of the equation so they are equal.

It's more than that. It's about holiness...sanctification...making pure as God is pure. I know you like changing the meaning of words to suit a religious ideology. No life there.

Reconciling a debt by paying the exact amount owing. In this case Someone offered to pay it for us by making His life an atonement. And a sacrifice has to be offered and eaten (ingested/received) by the same person in order for it to apply to them.

A sacrifice has to be given...and accepted...think Abel.

News flash...Jesus did not sacrifice Himself to us to be accepted or not. He sacrificed Himself to His Father and to the evil powers of this world. What the wicked principalities thought was a sacrifice to their own temporal power, God transformed into a source of eternal grace.

Bring the Lamb, offer it to God, let it be roasted on the altar and then it had to be eaten. Eat the Word of God and drink of His Spirit in order to be forgiven and saved.

Religious posturing...no power or life. This just encourages religious kooks to claim self-righteousness based on ideological beliefs. God is not in it...quite the opposite. Judgment is coming. .

 

[MatthewG]

There is no forgiveness without the atonement. Why...because God's Law has to be satisfied/fulfilled. He cannot go back on His word. It is a life for a life. And there is no remission/forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood. Atonement means to reconcile....like in math reconciling both sides of the equation so they are equal. Reconciling a debt by paying the exact amount owing. In this case Someone offered to pay it for us by making His life an atonement. And a sacrifice has to be offered and eaten (ingested/received) by the same person in order for it to apply to them. Bring the Lamb, offer it to God, let it be roasted on the altar and then it had to be eaten. Eat the Word of God and drink of His Spirit in order to be forgiven and saved.

Reading Samuel, he had to make sacrifices to Yahava. The priests in those days who were from the tribe of Levite, had to perform certain duties while some did right in the sight of Yahava, some did wrong in his sight and were killed for it. Every year, there was a sacrifice for the sins of Israel, and because of this the people's sins they had committed in that year were all forgiven. People would shout and give glory to Yahava, and shout praises towards him. They had been forgiven of their sins because of the atonement that was made by the sacrifice. Jesus fulfilled all those laws and requirements, in order to be able to have those Old Testament commandments given to them fulfilled, in order that all people may have access to Yahava by and through faith. It is amazing, Jesus said, "Eat my of flesh, and to Drink my blood" and he is the tree of life that was hung on the cross, however never did he stay there, he was risen back up by his Father. :) You keep on reading your bible and trusting God and looking towards his word. Today I believe that Jesus has had the victory, and people are all forgiven - it's now just upon them to make the choice to either serve themselves or serve Yahava. Because in the end all people will be resurrected, good and bad, faithful and faithless and all will given their spiritual body which will be rewarded by the Lord God Almighty, and they will either be able to enter the Kingdom or they will be unable to due to non-faith, non-love, and rightly judged by Him. I could be wrong but it is something that is believed personally by me myself, and no one should ever trust me.

 

[Behold]

"Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate." Heb. 13:12

(does it say, that He might forgive them with His own blood?)

"Without the shedding of Blood, there is no forgiveness/remission of sin".

So, the Cross of Christ is the Eternal forgiveness of Sin...... John 3:16

2nd Corinthians 5:19

John 3:17

How?

"God hath made Jesus to BE SIN...for us"

"Jesus is the one time Eternal Sacrifice for sin"....

That is the SHED BLOOD OF JESUS, that God Accepts on our behalf that is a sacrifice, that God requires so that by this BLOOD ATONEMENT, we can be "made righteous", forgiven of all sin.

Welcome to the : New Covenant.
Welcome to : Salvation
Its a "Gift".

 

[Episkopos]

Reading Samuel, he had to make sacrifices to Yahava. The priest in those days that were from the tribe of Levite, had to perform certain duties while some did right in the sight of Yahava, some did wrong in his sight and where killed for it. Every years, there was a sacrifice for the sins of Israel, and because of this the peoples sins they had committed in that year were all forgive. People would shout and give glory to Yahava, and shout praises towards him. They had been forgiven of their sins because of the atonement that was made by the sacrifice.

Atonement is not just about forgiveness. Forgiveness stands on its own. This error of atonement meaning forgiveness is HUGE.....enough to fully overthrow the whole purpose of the gospel. The people of Israel were a covenant people...a holy nation. They needed the blood of animals as a marker for the future coming of Jesus Christ. God has always been merciful...AND will have mercy on the meek, the merciful, the widow, the suffering...IOW...the righteous.

Jesus did not come to call the righteous to repentance. Those who are well don't need a doctor. He came to call the wicked to righteousness...and the righteous to holiness.

Of course modern religionists have NO understanding beyond what they have received by way of indoctrination into a religious decoy form of Christianity.

That's the truth of it.

Jesus fulfilled all those laws and requirements, in order to be able to have those old testament commandments given to them fulfilled, in order that all people may have access to Yahava by and through faith. It is amazing, Jesus said, "Eat my of flesh, and to Drink my blood" and he is the tree of life that was hung on the cross, however never did he stay there, he was risen back up by his Father. :) You keep on reading your bible and trusting God and looking towards his word. Today I believe that Jesus has had the victory, and people are all forgiven - it's now just upon them to make the choice to either serve themselves or serve Yahava. Because in the end all people will be resurrected, good and bad, faithful and faithless and all will given their spiritual body which will be rewarded by the Lord God Almighty, and they will either be able to enter the Kingdom or they will be unable to due to non-faith, non-love, and rightly judged by Him. I could be wrong but it is something that is believed personally by me myself, and no one should ever trust me.

There are 4 possibilities...not just one...4 destinies. Not 2 as Christendom teaches. No, the Spirit teaches us that there are 4. Jesus witnesses to these. Anything else is from the carnal mind.

 

[Episkopos]

"Without the shedding of Blood, there is no forgiveness/remission of sin".

So, the Cross of Christ is the Eternal forgiveness of Sin...... John 3:16

2nd Corinthians 5:19

John 3:17

How?

"God hath made Jesus to BE SIN...for us"

"Jesus is the one time Eternal Sacrifice for sin"....

That is the SHED BLOOD OF JESUS, that God Accepts on our behalf that is a sacrifice, that God requires so that by this BLOOD ATONEMENT, we can be "made righteous", forgiven of all sin.

Welcome to the : New Covenant.
Welcome to : Salvation
Its a "Gift".

As false as can be. Remission means its power is no longer functioning. Like a cancer in remission. The gospel is freedom (aphesis) from sin...not just forgiveness. Forgiveness is implied if you are now walking above sin.

The gospel cited in the OT says freedom, liberty from sin...Is. 61:1

H1865
דּרור
derôr
der-ore'
From an unused root (meaning to move rapidly); freedom; hence spontaneity of outflow, and so clear: - liberty, pure.

Jesus didn't come to forgive the prisoners in jail...He came to set them free...free from sin INTO His life, His holiness, His peace, His love, His joy. These are ALL missing from those who are looking to be justified in their carnal condition. What a waste. These are just looking for forgiveness for sins they can't stop doing.


Forgiveness is also required IF we sin AFTER we have been made holy. As such we have an Advocate, Jesus Christ, to plead our case. Perhaps the Lord will let us back into the higher walk...IF we repent and learn from our mistakes.

 

[MatthewG]

I can't just go in and trust you, and your word on what you may preach or exalt @Episkopos. Can't have forgiveness of sins without Jesus Christ and his bloodshed on the cross for all the world. Love you anyway though, as you are allowed to say, think, and believe whatever you may. May your fellowship continue with the Father, and the Son of God, Jesus whom we have fellowship with, friend.

 

[Behold]

Jesus did not come to call the righteous to repentance. Those who are well don't need a doctor. He came to call the wicked to righteousness...and the righteous to holiness.

1.) "all have sinned"
2.) "there is NONE righteous, no not one'..

UNTIL ....

"Jesus came to Save Sinners"

Jesus said.."All that believe in me, i give unto them ETERNAL LIFE...and they shall never go to Hell (perish)".

Salvation, is God become Christ on the Cross, so that His Blood and Death are accepted on our behalf, as our forgiveness.

All that "call on the name of Jesus"... believing.......... their "faith is counted as (Christ's) Righteousness.

They are given by God, "The Gift of Righteousness"..

That is the only way to become Righteous... God has to cause it, through the Cross of Christ, and this is the Grace of God, that is : Salvation.

 

[Behold]

As false as can be. Remission means its power is no longer functioning.

All sins are remitted by "the one time eternal sacrifice of Jesus'. because "God hath made Jesus to be sin...for us".

Here, @Episkopos .... let the NT correct your Cross denying Theology.....Again

-
Hebrews 10:18 Now where REMISSION of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the REMISSION of their sins,

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and REMISSION of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive REMISSION of sins.

 

[ChristisGod]

There is no forgiveness without the atonement. Why...because God's Law has to be satisfied/fulfilled. He cannot go back on His word. It is a life for a life. And there is no remission/forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood. Atonement means to reconcile....like in math reconciling both sides of the equation so they are equal. Reconciling a debt by paying the exact amount owing. In this case Someone offered to pay it for us by making His life an atonement. And a sacrifice has to be offered and eaten (ingested/received) by the same person in order for it to apply to them. Bring the Lamb, offer it to God, let it be roasted on the altar and then it had to be eaten. Eat the Word of God and drink of His Spirit in order to be forgiven and saved.

Right without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin- Hebrews 9:22 and many places in the O.T. Even Jesus said the same that His blood was given for the forgiveness of sin. Matthew 26:28- the blood of the New Covenant that provided the forgivenes of our sins that we are reminded of every-time we take communion.

 

[ChristisGod]

All sins are remitted by "the one time eternal sacrifice of Jesus'. because "God hath made Jesus to be sin...for us".

Here, @Episkopos .... let the NT correct your Theology.....Again

-
Hebrews 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Amen