Forgiveness vs Atonement

[Episkopos]

Online Summary.

Our response in salvation is faith, but even that is “not of [ourselves], it is the gift of God.” Faith is nothing that we do in our own power or by our own resources. In the first place, we do not have adequate power or resources.

Amen...even the faith that attains to Christ is a gift of God.

Moreover, God would not want us to rely on them even if we had them.

That depends on who we are talking about...the saints or the righteous. The world will be judged by what they have done with what they have been given.

The saint relies on God to walk in the perfection of Christ. The righteous obey with all they have and are, yet still sin.

Otherwise salvation would be in part by our own works,

This is where the confusion about salvation comes into being. Salvation NOW is based on entering INTO Christ NOW.

BUT...inheriting salvation is by the mercy of God...on a scale that is greater than the church.

and we would have some ground to boast in ourselves. Paul’s emphasis in Ephesians 2:8 is that even faith does not come from us apart from God’s giving it. Human effort has nothing to do with it (cf.Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16), and thus no one should boast, as if he contributed any part.

That is on the level of a saint...which VERY few are qualified to walk in.

Spiritually dead, we were helpless until God intervened to quicken us: “Even when we were dead in our transgressions, [God] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” (Ephesians 2:5). Faith is an integral part of the gift His grace bestowed on us.

Amen.

Scripture consistently teaches that faith is not conjured up by the human will but is a sovereignly granted gift of God. Jesus said, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44). And “No one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father” (John 6:65). Acts 3:16 speaks of “the faith which comes through Him.” Philippians 1:29 says, “To you it has been granted for Christ’s sake . . . to believe in Him.” And Peter wrote to fellow believers as “those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours” (2 Peter 1:1).

Amen once again...this is the way of Christ...in holiness..into the higher walk of divine power.

How do we know that faith is God’s gift? Left to ourselves, no one would ever believe: “There is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God” (Romans 3:11). “So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy” (Romans 9:16). God draws the sinner to Christ and gives the ability to believe. Without that divinely generated faith, one cannot understand and approach the Savior. “A natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised” (1 Corinthians 2:14). That is precisely why when Peter affirmed his faith in Christ as the Son of God, Jesus told him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). Faith is graciously given to believers by God himself.

Again...this is on the level of a saint....that very few will attain to. Many more will believe ABOUT Jesus, and stumble over Christ, thinking they are something they are not. The bible doesn't say...unless the Father draws a person, he cannot believe things ABOUT Christ.

So then a carnal religion ALSO has come into being...called "Christianity" based on the assumptions of men.

As a divine gift, faith is neither transient nor impotent. It has an abiding quality that guarantees that it will endure to the end. The familiar words of Habakkuk 2:4, “The righteous will live by his faith” (cf. Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; Hebrews 10:38), speak not of a momentary act of believing, but of a living, enduring trust in God. Hebrews 3:14 emphasizes the permanence of genuine faith. Its very durability is proof of its reality: “We have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.” The faith God gives can never evaporate. And the work of salvation cannot ultimately be thwarted (cf. John 10:27–29). In Philippians 1:6 Paul wrote, “I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus” (cf. 1 Corinthians 1:8; Colossians 1:22–23).

For those reasons, saving faith is nothing like the fickleness of wavering human belief. It is as enduring and unchanging as the God who grants it.

Amen...yes, and again this is about the calling of a saint...not a believer who walks in his own power.

The saint walks IN Christ...who knew NO sin. In Him is no sin. Those who are translated to heaven to walk IN Him do not sin. This is not about what men can do in their own power...no, it is by the power of God...by grace through faith.

 

[Ritajanice]

Amen...even the faith that attains to Christ is a gift of God.


That depends on who we are talking about...the saints or the righteous. The world will be judged by what they have done with what they have been given.

The saint relies on God. The righteous obey with all they have and are, yet still sin.


This is where the confusion about salvation comes into being. Salvation NOW is based on entering INTO Christ NOW. BUT...inheriting salvation is by the mercy of God...on a scale that is greater than the church.


That is on the level of a saint...which VERY few are qualified to walk in.


Amen.


Amen once again...this is the way of Christ...in holiness..into the higher walk of divine power.


Again...this is on the level of a saint....that very few will attain to. Many more will believe ABOUT Jesus, and stumble over Christ, thinking they are something they are not. The bible doesn't say...unless the Father draws a person, he cannot believe things ABOUT Christ.

So then a carnal religion ALSO has come into being...called "Christianity" based on the assumptions of men.

Amen...yes, and again this is about the calling of a saint...not a believer who walks in his own power.

The saint walks IN Christ...who knew NO sin. In Him is no sin. Those who are translated to heaven to walk IN Him do not sin. This is not about what men can do in their own power...no it is by the power of God...by grace through faith.

I’m not going to rush in by my own esteem, I have to wait for the Holy Spirit to unravel what you are saying here, and bring me to an understanding of what you are saying, I understand quite a bit ..but I must wait on the Lord to give me the knowledge and go ahead.egos are no good in situations like this, we learn NOTHING!.....will be back.thanks.

 

[Ritajanice]

The saint relies on God. The righteous obey with all they have and are, yet still sin

Ok right, I have a question, if that’s ok?

The saint relies on God....are you a saint?

The righteous obey with all they have....would you say the righteous are taught to obey by the Holy Spirit?

 

[ChristisGod]

Amen...even the faith that attains to Christ is a gift of God.


That depends on who we are talking about...the saints or the righteous. The world will be judged by what they have done with what they have been given.

The saint relies on God to walk in the perfection of Christ. The righteous obey with all they have and are, yet still sin.


This is where the confusion about salvation comes into being. Salvation NOW is based on entering INTO Christ NOW.

BUT...inheriting salvation is by the mercy of God...on a scale that is greater than the church.


That is on the level of a saint...which VERY few are qualified to walk in.


Amen.


Amen once again...this is the way of Christ...in holiness..into the higher walk of divine power.


Again...this is on the level of a saint....that very few will attain to. Many more will believe ABOUT Jesus, and stumble over Christ, thinking they are something they are not. The bible doesn't say...unless the Father draws a person, he cannot believe things ABOUT Christ.

So then a carnal religion ALSO has come into being...called "Christianity" based on the assumptions of men.

Amen...yes, and again this is about the calling of a saint...not a believer who walks in his own power.

The saint walks IN Christ...who knew NO sin. In Him is no sin. Those who are translated to heaven to walk IN Him do not sin. This is not about what men can do in their own power...no it is by the power of God...by grace through faith.

The saints are righteous. We are saints because of Christ, we are righteous because of Christ, we are holy because of Christ, we are justified because of Christ, we have the Holy Spirit because of Christ, we have eternal life because of Christ, we are born again because of Christ, we are sanctified because of Christ, we are glorified because of Christ, we are created because of Christ and we live because of Christ- in Him we live, move and have our being.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Episkopos]

Ok right, I have a question, if that’s ok?

The saint relies on God....are you a saint?

I have the training of one...the calling and experiences of one...for sure...whether I am worthy of being regarded as one by God...I have my doubts. My confidence is in God...not my own faithfulness. I am just a human, and can get caught up with things.

I know the difficulty of the narrow way. I see myself as just a humble brother who is amazed at the holy standard of God.

But I don't give up the race for that. I try to be diligent in my quest for re-entry into the higher walk that is IN Christ (having fallen out of that twice now). I can't get there by any effort...but I can make my own surrendered inclinations conducive to the truth whereby God wants to have me back...by translating me once again into the walk in resurrection life.

(I hope my honesty here is not a stumbling block for any egos here that wish to mock at my testimony. ) See I have cast my pearls before the thread....

 

[Episkopos]

Ok right, I have a question, if that’s ok?

The saint relies on God....are you a saint?

The righteous obey with all they have....would you say the righteous are taught to obey by the Holy Spirit?

I see you added the last sentence. Yes, the righteous submit to God in fear and trembling. They (we) can learn to be subject to the righteousness of God, even if we are not embodying it. The meek will inherit the earth.

Although the righteous can be LED by the Spirit. (we can follow Christ from any length of distance)....not everyone will rule with Christ. Most of us will live in the nations...we hope. We are to practice being ruled over by Christ...learning obedience, learning righteousness...in the hope of INHERITING life.

 

[Ritajanice]

have the training of one...the calling and experiences of one...for sure...whether I am worthy of being regarded as one by God...I have my doubts.

I know the difficulty of the narrow way. I see myself as just a humble brother who is amazed at the holy standard of God.

I won’t be mocking, when you say you have the training of one....who trained you?

After yesterday and all the egos that were floating around...including mine....I learnt a lot from that....I’m always asking God to humble me and to let go of pride and ego.

It really does get in the way....before we know it, we have risen, as In ego and pride....then Jesus goes out the window....thank you for bringing me to that realisation Father God.....Amen.

 

[Ritajanice]

I see you added the last sentence. Yes, the righteous submit to God in fear and trembling. They (we) can learn to be subject to the righteousness of God, even if we are not embodying it. The meek will inherit the earth.

Although the righteous can be LED by the Spirit. (we can follow Christ from any length of distance)....not everyone will rule with Christ. Most of us will live in the nations...we hope. We are to practice being ruled over by Christ...learning obedience, learning righteousness...in the hope of INHERITING life.

I think I am beginning to understand you more, we just word it differently....I will leave it at that for the moment...thanks for explaining.

 

[Episkopos]

I won’t be mocking, when you say you have the training of one....who trained you?

The Lord of course.

After yesterday and all the egos that were floating around...including mine....I learnt a lot from that....I’m always asking God to humble me and to let go of pride and ego.

It really does get in the way....before we know it, we have risen, as In ego and pride....then Jesus goes out the window....thank you for bringing me to that realisation Father God.....Amen.

We only become a saint when our egos are crucified with Christ...when the "I" is no longer operating because it is crucified dead. At that point our inner self can be translated to walk in the light as He is in the light. (A real light that can be seen, felt and experienced)

When we live in another realm...all things become new.

That's the level of Paul's experience he is relating to us in his testimony that we read about in the bible.

We are either fully sanctified or not at all. The saint is fully sanctified. There is no partial holiness...or sinful holiness.

 

[Behold]

I believe it is paraphrase of of an OT verse nothing to do with mormonism.

Its not a paraphrase.....its the core of the Book of Mormon.

I realize that you dont care to find any of this out, and you just want to argue, without understanding.
But really, you should at least investigate .........this, and compare it to What He teaches.

"""" The word "Zion" appears 53 times in the Book of Mormon, a key part of the Latter Day Saint canon, and 268 times in the LDS Church's version of the Doctrine and Covenants, a part of its canon consisting of what members believe to be modern-day revelation and written down by Smith mostly in the 19th century.
-
Why do Mormons go to Zion?

In latter-day revelation, Zion is defined as “the pure in heart” (Doctrine and Covenants 97:21). In the early days of this dispensation, Church leaders counseled members to build up Zion by emigrating to a central location. Today our leaders counsel us to build up Zion wherever we live.""""

 

[Behold]

We only become a saint

All the Born again are "Saints", exactly as they are become "Sons/Daughters" of God. "In Christ"... "One with God'.

None of this is earned.
Its all a part of "The Gift of Salvation".

 

[Ritajanice]

All the Born again are "Saints", exactly as they are become "Sons/Daughters" of God. "In Christ"... "One with God'.

None of this is earned.
Its all a part of "The Gift of Salvation".

Thanks for that, that’s exactly what I believe also, ...God knows I lack confidence in certain areas, then along he comes in the Spirit through you and confirms what I was already believing.

Praise God for that.....

 

[Behold]

Thanks for that, that’s exactly what I believe also, ...God knows I lack confidence in certain areas, then along he comes in the Spirit through you and confirms what I was already believing.

Praise God for that.....

The Born again exist "One with God".

Jesus said ""I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved THEM, as thou hast loved me.""

So, If Jesus says that God loves us, the born again, as God loves Jesus, then we are in a very fine eternal position.
And this must be true = as God sent Christ to die on The Cross for US.

There is no condemnation in this Relationship we have with God.
The relationship we have with God is far beyond..."well, i wasn't perfect today".
God's love is unconditional, and His acceptance of us, is based on the CROSS, that is the finished work of Jesus.

God only sees us THROUGH the Blood Atonement.

We are accepted, always, never condemned, never forgotten, never set aside, by God.
We are in God and Christ is in us, and all is well., and its going to get even better.

 

[CadyandZoe]

it's a secret code shared between Christ and those who have known Him WHERE He is.

So you say. But presumably, your intent is to tell the hidden secret to the uninitiated from the scriptures. Thus, the locus of our argument is centered on the meaning of the scriptures. I am here to correct your misunderstanding of them.

What cult?

You seem to belong to the Christian cult, which teaches that sanctification is a second blessing of God. Like all cults, this cult depends on taking verses out of context and redefining words. Thus, your latest two videos are all about definitions of words.

I brought up the idea of honesty because you did earlier. Instead of "honesty" I should have talked about experience. Those who are willing to admit it (honest) have discovered that the doctrine of the "second blessing" doesn't work in the real world. All it does is lead to frustration, alienation and in some cases, suicide. Why? Because those who affirm the doctrine of the "second blessing" are self-deceived and living a lie, doing everything possible to project (act like) a Christian having great faith. It's all fantasy.

That's what unbelief is all about.

You are wrong. Unbelievers deny what they already know to be true. But in your cult, "faith" has been redefined as "the power to do miraculous things". In your view, faith is not only cognitive, it is also affective. Faith is the means whereby we effectuate the sinless life. For those in whom the force (I mean "faith") is strong, they live without sin. But for those in whom the force is weak, their ability to live without sin is ineffectual.

Sadly, and tragically, this doctrine alienates those with a "strong faith" from those with a "weak faith" (as define by the cult.) In either case, the doctrine is false, not real, and not Biblical. Some are lucky enough to figure out and admit that it doesn't work, while others keep trying anyway, believing that "something must be wrong with me."

The truth is this. We don't sanctify ourselves; God is the one who sanctifies us. The doctrine that God has given us a technique that we appropriate to sanctify ourselves is not true.

You think being translated into God's kingdom is only a language thing. Like translating into Chinese or Urdu?

No. What gave you that idea?

First of all, you need to know that we are translated into a kingdom of "Light", which is a kingdom of knowledge, wisdom, insight, and discernment. Second, the role of the Holy Spirit is to bring us such things and to help us with doubt and any lack of conviction. Consider the following verses from Paul's epistle to the Colossians.

Colossians 1:9-14

For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.​

​

13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.​

Do you see that? The process of sanctification begins with the Holy Spirit who brings us knowledge of his will, spiritual wisdom and understanding, and increasing in the knowledge of God, which is followed by walking in a manner worthy of the Lord. Walking in such a manner is not a second blessing given to those who learn how to appropriate the power of the Holy Spirit. Walking in such a manner is simply a natural response to being given knowledge, spiritual wisdom, understanding, and knowledge of God's will.

So no one is less than holy..so all are holy.

That's right. While we typically think of the moral man as being a "holy" man. The term "holy" doesn't mean "moral" or "ethical." It essentially means "unique", "different", or "set aside to serve God."

A man has two bowls. With one bowl he eats his Cheerios and with the other bowl, he burns incense to the Lord. The first bowl is common, the second bowl is holy. Anything or anyone set aside to serve the Lord is holy.

Those whom God designates as "holy" are those in whom his Holy Spirit is at work. He has set them aside to serve him and the first step in that regard is the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the Holy One. To put it in active verbs, God has decided to save Mary. He begins by pouring out his spirit into Mary's heart. Due to that, Mary begins to think about God more often, and her hunger for knowledge about God increases exponentially. And because Mary has begun to love God, she believes that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and she dedicates her life to his service. Mary is holy.

Paul refers to people like Mary as "holy ones" or in the Latin vernacular, "saints" or "sanctified ones" coming from the Latin root "sanctus." Contrary to Catholic teaching, the saints are not believers who deserve special recognition. The "saints" are believers who have been "sanctifed" by God through the power of his Holy Spirit who grants knowledge, spiritual wisdom and understanding. By virtue of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, such people are "unique", "special", and "holy."

No there are not degrees of Holiness. Either God has set one aside or he hasn't.





associate the ethical man as a holy man with

I think I understand your religious beliefs now. Don't judge Star Wars fans....they know not what they do.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Ok right, I have a question, if that’s ok?

The saint relies on God....are you a saint?

The righteous obey with all they have....would you say the righteous are taught to obey by the Holy Spirit?

The saint is a saint because they have been given the righteousness of Christ.

they are one and the same

 

[CadyandZoe]

Here is truth that will get religious posers in a snit.

When you get a sample of something (like grace at regeneration)...it is free...no cost. When you desire the product to the point where you go to the company that produces the product to BUY it...THEN you become known to the company. Otherwise the free sample does not put you in contact with the company at all. No...samples are handed out liberally.

How many will claim to know God based on the sample? many. But these cannot help but be rejected...I never knew you....because they never went to get the full measure of grace.

Being baptized in the Spirit is a reward for seeking God with a full surrender...just like any subsequent filling by the Spirit.

No. Baptism in the Spirit is not a reward; baptism in the Spirit is an act of God's grace.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes they will, at a future date.

but we are talking about the hebrews spoken to by the author..

You brought it up

And perhaps you might have noticed from the same context that Paul considered the Jewish enemies of the Gospel to be "holy" for the sake of the fathers.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

And perhaps you might have noticed from the same context that Paul considered the Jewish enemies of the Gospel to be "holy" for the sake of the fathers.

yes,,, and we are to love them like everyone else. unlike the hatred we see put on them from many churches and most other people..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No. Baptism in the Spirit is not a reward; baptism in the Spirit is an act of God's grace.

amen.

romans 6, 1 cor 12, gal 3, and colossians 2.. even the washing of titus 3 are all baptism of the spirit..

 

[CadyandZoe]

That's not what willfull sins consist of. God knows our weakness. All people are weak. The problem is with our strength...our strength to do what you are doing...resisting the truth. Remaining in unbelief. Our resisting going to God...going to the cross...excusing our sins and maintaining a facade of religious certainty that denies God's power.

No Epi, we don't sin because we are weak; we sin because we are evil. The problem isn't with our strength. The problem is with our will. But unlike you, we don't believe that God has left us weak, groping around to find an appropriate technique whereby we can appropriate the power of God. No. We believe that God himself strengthens us. Our strength of character is an aspect of our regeneration, not an element of an alleged second blessing.

Yes. I see that kind of resistance ALL THE TIME. Why won't believers have faith anymore?

In Biblical terms, believers are those who have faith. But according to your cult definition of "faith" you mean to ask, "why won't believers appropriate the "principle of power." Faith as power is a doctrine unfamiliar to the Bible.