The state of the church

[Faithful]

...is basically the same as the world...both going down in a downward spiral.

Is the answer more of man inspired evangelism we see so much of? Who brings more furniture into a burning building? Or perhaps we think the fire will be put out from the wind as Jesus spits the church out of His mouth????

Who is looking at the bigger picture?

Which Church are you talking about?

The church of God... the body of Christ... men and women born of the Spirit and Truth is going from strength to strength.
Sin, the world and the devil cannot prevail against it.

Buildings are not the true temple of God and they are not the Church of God.
The Kingdom of God dwells within the person not amongst people in a building following a wordly regime.

So the Church of God is fine in every century that passes. The manmade churches will obviously spiral if not build on stone but sand.

 

[Episkopos]

Which Church are you talking about?

The church of God... the body of Christ... men and women born of the Spirit and Truth is going from strength to strength.
Sin, the world and the devil cannot prevail against it.

Buildings are not the true temple of God and they are not the Church of God.
The Kingdom of God dwells within the person not amongst people in a building following a wordly regime.

So the Church of God is fine in every century that passes. The manmade churches will obviously spiral if not build on stone but sand.

Can you cite an example of a church that is not man made????

 

[neophyte]

Episkopos,The Second Vatican Council, stated the Church is the people of God. Protestants see this as pretty much it. They understand 'church'as a name for a structure-less body of people who follow Christ and believe in his divinity as the second Person of the Holy Trinity, revealed in the Bible alone.
Catholics, on the other hand, understand the Church also in terms of a hierarchical structure, with definite authority given to it by Jesus in the person of Peter and therefore to his successors. We see in Scripture much evidence that Jesus gave personal attention to the apostles, preparing them to minister after he was no longer with them. “Anyone who listens to you listens to me; anyone who rejects you rejects me, and those who reject me reject the one who sent me” (Lk 10:16). There was no reason for him to prepare them for only their lifetime. The early Church Fathers verify this. The early Church does not fall into the Protestant vision of a structure-less, sacrament-less body of believers. It was hierarchically structured and sacramental. The canon of the New Testament, on which Protestants base all their faith, is the product of this Church.

 

[Episkopos]

Episkopos,The Second Vatican Council, stated the Church is the people of God. Protestants see this as pretty much it. They understand 'church'as a name for a structure-less body of people who follow Christ and believe in his divinity as the second Person of the Holy Trinity, revealed in the Bible alone.
Catholics, on the other hand, understand the Church also in terms of a hierarchical structure, with definite authority given to it by Jesus in the person of Peter and therefore to his successors. We see in Scripture much evidence that Jesus gave personal attention to the apostles, preparing them to minister after he was no longer with them. “Anyone who listens to you listens to me; anyone who rejects you rejects me, and those who reject me reject the one who sent me” (Lk 10:16). There was no reason for him to prepare them for only their lifetime. The early Church Fathers verify this. The early Church does not fall into the Protestant vision of a structure-less, sacrament-less body of believers. It was hierarchically structured and sacramental. The canon of the New Testament, on which Protestants base all their faith, is the product of this Church.

The church of Christ is simply the gathering of the saints and faithful brethren in any given locality. Each church is to have Christ as it's Head and be led of the Spirit.

Christians are not followers of a book, a dogma, a hierchy, a man-made institution or anyone but Christ.

The Head of every man is Christ. True Christian leaders are servants and slaves of Christ...not long robed priests of religion and position and power.

The church has we see today taken the bait that Jesus refused when He was tempted in the wilderness. The Muslims have a religious clergy...Christians do not. They know us by our love...not the length of our ecclesiastical garments.

Have you ever read the gospels?...check it out. Now compare the Pharisees with the religious leaders that are misguiding the people today. Even the the heathen can tell the difference. The great apostasy from the true faith is also spoken of intensively in the bible.

 

[Foreigner]

No one believes that Foreigner - and as a former Catholic you know it.

The Mass is not a re-creation - it is an echo of the one time sacrifice.

-- Really? http://www.catholics...s-eucharist.php

"The Catholic doctrine of the Real Presence is the belief that Jesus Christ is literally, not symbolically, present in the Holy Eucharist—body, blood, soul and divinity. Catholics believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist because Jesus tells us this is true in the Bible.
Furthermore, the early Church Fathers either imply or directly state that the bread and wine offered in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper is really the body and blood of Jesus Christ. In other words, the doctrine of the Real Presence that Catholics believe today was believed by the earliest Christians 2,000 years ago!"

-- Attended the First Communion of a neice about two weeks ago. The Bishop stressed that it is the ACTUAL body and blood of Christ which is why the event is so solemn.

I had another neice Confirmed this last spring and another Bishop said the same thing - it is actual body and blood of Jesus, which is why when it changes from the bread to Christ's body it is called the "Great Mystery."

So, yes, Catholics think they are chowing down on the actual body of Christ Himself.






.

 

[Episkopos]

The church people are essentially divided into two camps. Those who want to live their lives here doing what they want....and those that are willing to give up their lives in order to let Christ live through them. All other considerations stem from one of these two motivations.

 

[neophyte]

Episkopos and Foreigner, you both, as you both have previously expressed, accept the Holy Bible as the inerrant Word of God. Having said that , please take heed to this message to our earlier Christian brothers this advice from Jesus , actually more like a command.
We find in [ Matt. 18:15-18 ] where the Christian brother is confronted by another Christian brother, then if that doesn't work take him to other Christians, if nothing works with other members of the Christian faith , then we read where Jesus explicitly commands those Christian brothers to take their Christian brother directly to the Church [ but, which "church"? Certainly not your later days church ] Now I ask you in all honesty is that particular church , the real One True Church, that Jesus said He would build [ Matt.16 15-19 ]? Is this the very same Church that the Bible states has the final authority [ Matt. 16: 18-19; 18;18; Jn. 20: 23 ]? The very same Church that is the pillar/foundation of all Christian truth ?
If the Bible states that the Church is "One"[ Rom. 12;5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13] why do you reject those verses ?
" " " " " the Church is Apostolic [ Eph. 2: 19-20 ] why do you refuse to believe that verse ?
Jesus' Church is called Catholic [ " Universal " in Greek ] [ Matt. 28: 19-20, Rev. 5: 9-10 ] because it is His gift to all people.Jesus commanded His apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations.
For 2000 years the Catholic Church has carried out this mission, He wants all of us to be members of His Universal family [ Gal. 3: 28 ]. Why do you reject the only "family" that Jesus wants you as a member of, yet you prefer to stay as protigal sons and daughters ?
The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title , "the Catholic Church", at least as early as the year 107 AD, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded, This title was old by the time of Ignatious.

Also in these two verses we can see where that existing Apostolic/Catholic Church that Jesus formed for all of us contained the necessary 'doctrines '' " THEN " [ Romans 16:17-18, 1 Cor.1:10 ]

In the preceding verse of [ Matt. 18: 15-18 ], one can almost hear the note of amazement in Christ's voice when He said, " If he refuses tp listen even to the church........"[ implying that for someone to ignore the church--- His Church--- would be the height of stupidity and foolishness .

 

[Theodore A. Jones]

Jesus will always protect "His Church"only [ meaning only His Church which contains His Apostolic Doctrinal Teachings ]His Words can be found in [ Matt. 16: 15-19 ] Jesus will always keep His promise to protect His Church from any Teaching error, so far so good, not one doctrine has ever been omitted or changed in the past two thosand years.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."
Rom. 2:13
Don,t know of any church, churchman ect. today who does not disagree with that fellow. So it looks to me like something changed. Maybe it has escaped your notice.

 

[aspen]

-- Really? http://www.catholics...s-eucharist.php

"The Catholic doctrine of the Real Presence is the belief that Jesus Christ is literally, not symbolically, present in the Holy Eucharist—body, blood, soul and divinity. Catholics believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist because Jesus tells us this is true in the Bible.
Furthermore, the early Church Fathers either imply or directly state that the bread and wine offered in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper is really the body and blood of Jesus Christ. In other words, the doctrine of the Real Presence that Catholics believe today was believed by the earliest Christians 2,000 years ago!"

-- Attended the First Communion of a neice about two weeks ago. The Bishop stressed that it is the ACTUAL body and blood of Christ which is why the event is so solemn.

I had another neice Confirmed this last spring and another Bishop said the same thing - it is actual body and blood of Jesus, which is why when it changes from the bread to Christ's body it is called the "Great Mystery."

So, yes, Catholics think they are chowing down on the actual body of Christ Himself.






.

Yes - it is the real blood and body of Christ - an echo. An echo is made up of the real sound waves of a one time event. The priest is not re-sacrificing Christ - stop misrepresenting the church you used to belong to - you know better.


Ignatius of Antioch

"Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice—even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God" (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).

Gregory Nazianzen

"Cease not to pray and plead for me when you draw down the Word by your word, when in an unbloody cutting you cut the Body and Blood of the Lord, using your voice for a sword" (Letter to Amphilochius 171 [A.D. 383]).

Ambrose of Milan

"We saw the prince of priests coming to us, we saw and heard him offering his blood for us. We follow, inasmuch as we are able, being priests, and we offer the sacrifice on behalf of the people. Even if we are of but little merit, still, in the sacrifice, we are honorable. Even if Christ is not now seen as the one who offers the sacrifice, nevertheless it is he himself that is offered in sacrifice here on Earth when the body of Christ is offered. Indeed, to offer himself he is made visible in us, he whose word makes holy the sacrifice that is offered" (Commentaries on Twelve Psalms of David 38:25 [A.D. 389]).

John Chrysostom

"When you see the Lord immolated and lying upon the altar, and the priest bent over that sacrifice praying, and all the people empurpled by that precious blood, can you think that you are still among men and on earth? Or are you not lifted up to heaven?" (The Priesthood 3:4:177 [A.D. 387]).

"Reverence, therefore, reverence this table, of which we are all communicants! Christ, slain for us, the sacrificial victim who is placed thereon!" (Homilies on Romans 8:8 [A.D. 391]).

"‘The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not communion of the blood of Christ?’ Very trustworthy and awesomely does he [Paul] say it. For what he is saying is this: What is in the cup is that which flowed from his side, and we partake of it. He called it a cup of blessing because when we hold it in our hands that is how we praise him in song, wondering and astonished at his indescribable gift, blessing him because of his having poured out this very gift so that we might not remain in error; and not only for his having poured it out, but also for his sharing it with all of us. ‘If therefore you desire blood,’ he [the Lord] says, ‘do not redden the platform of idols with the slaughter of dumb beasts, but my altar of sacrifice with my blood.’ What is more awesome than this? What, pray tell, more tenderly loving?" (Homilies on First Corinthians 24:1(3) [A.D. 392]).

Representing the Cross

Then how can we call the Mass a sacrifice?

We can say that the Mass is a sacrifice because Christ instituted the Eucharist to make that final sacrifice available to us for all time.

Christ is not sacrificed again in the Mass. But because Christ is really present in the Eucharist, the Mass is a participation in His one great sacrifice.

The Mass re-presents that sacrifice, making it present to us and making us part of it. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross cannot happen again because it is still happening today in the Eucharist. The sacrifice is eternal, and every Mass is part of it.

Notice the difference between "re-presenting" and "representing."

In modern English, to say that one thing "represents" another usually means that the first thing stands for the second. A word represents the thing it names, and an elected official represents the people who elect him. But the word is not the thing, and the elected official is not the people.

When we say that the Mass "re-presents" the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, however, we go back to the root meaning of the word.

The Mass presents that sacrifice again, making it present to us right now. All over the world, wherever the Eucharist is being celebrated, God's people are present at the one eternal sacrifice of the Lamb.

http://www.salvationhistory.com/studies/lesson/supper_one_sacrifice_for_all_time/

 

[Episkopos]

The sory of the church is like the story of Sampson. Very strong at first until seduced by the world (Constantine)...captured and then blinded....but at the end there is one last great work. Again the story of the prodigal son also is like the history of the church.

 

[aspen]

The sory of the church is like the story of Sampson. Very strong at first until seduced by the world (Constantine)...captured and then blinded....but at the end there is one last great work. Again the story of the prodigal son also is like the history of the church.

Wow - what a bleak view of Christ's sacrifice......

 

[Episkopos]

Wow - what a bleak view of Christ's sacrifice......

I am talking of the history of the church as if it were a man. Do you know church history?

 

[Axehead]

John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Jesus is giving us a clue about how He lived by the Father (He ate of Him, spiritually) and how Jesus lived by His Father is how we shall live by Jesus.

We eat of Him spiritually.

Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, (how did the fathers eat manna? Physically!) and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. (ahhh, live forever. That is spiritual not physical).

How do we know that we don't eat Jesus' physical body and blood. Because He told us!!

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So, I am

Axehead

 

[aspen]

I am talking of the history of the church as if it were a man. Do you know church history?

I do

I am not defending it Axehead - the truth needs no defense. All I am doing is reminding Foreigner that the Catholic Church does not re-sacrifice Christ. He seems to have forgotten his catechism classes

 

[Foreigner]

Yes - it is the real blood and body of Christ - an echo. An echo is made up of the real sound waves of a one time event. The priest is not re-sacrificing Christ - stop misrepresenting the church you used to belong to - you know better.

-- Not re-sacrificing?
Catholics base the concept on Christ's words at the Last Supper.

"And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me." - 1 Cor. 11:24 KJV

If it is the real body and blood of Christ (which it's not), it is because He is being sacrificed yet again...and again...and again...and again...

 

[neophyte]

-- Not re-sacrificing?
Catholics base the concept on Christ's words at the Last Supper.

"And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me." - 1 Cor. 11:24 KJV

If it is the real body and blood of Christ (which it's not), it is because He is being sacrificed yet again...and again...and again...and again...

Foreigner,
First of all, up to the 16th century virtually all Christians believed that the bread and wine truly becomes the body and blood of Christ. That’s a long time. The largest and oldest Christian Church still does—as do the Orthodox churches. So there has to be something credible about it.
It is true that for the Jews, consuming blood was an abomination. Scripture tells us that many of the disciples of Jesus could not accept this and from that point on did not follow him (Jn 6:66), but not all of them. “Then Jesus said to the Twelve, ‘What about you, do you want to go away too?’ Simon Peter answered, ‘Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the message of eternal life, and we believe; we know that you are the Holy One of God’” (Jn 6:67-69). These disciples did accept what he said—not because they understood, but because they believed in him.
If Jesus were merely speaking symbolically, he could easily have called the other disciples back and explained that he wasn’t speaking literally. He did not. Jesus, we believe, is God. It boggles the mind that God loves his creatures so much that he became one of them, and then allowed them to torture him and put him to death for their benefit. The moment in which he died covers every person who lived on this earth before Good Friday and everyone who was to live after it. It transcends time.
The Church and everything about it is incarnational because Jesus became incarnate. He used water and spittle and bread and wine and his own body and blood to minister to those who needed him. Since Jesus is God, if he said that the bread and wine becomes his body and blood, then those who acknowledge his divinity should have no difficulty believing it to be true because, like the Twelve, they believe in him. It is certainly no more extraordinary than his Incarnation!
Since the moment of his death transcends time, to celebrate it in time is not to create another Passion and death; it is to worship him in that very Passion here and now in the concrete manner of his devising. See: www.catholic.com/library/Sacrifice_of_the_Mass.asp.

 

[Foreigner]

First of all, up to the 16th century virtually all Christians believed that the bread and wine truly becomes the body and blood of Christ. That’s a long time.

-- During that time the Catholic church also believed that the earth was flat, that earth was the center of the universe, sold indulgences, had multiple corrupt Popes, felt it was appropriate to burn witches and imprison and torture 'heretics' to get them to confess, etc. etc. etc.

I don't think you really want to open with that.

It boggles the mind that God loves his creatures so much that he became one of them, and then allowed them to torture him and put him to death for their benefit.

-- And that one-time sacrificing of His body and blood was all it took.
He broke bread and shared wine and said to do THAT in remembrance of Him.
To acknowledge and remind of the one-time great sacrifice he did ONCE and for all.

 

[aspen]

Foreigner knows this neo - he used to be Catholic - apparently he just wants to argue.

 

[Foreigner]

Sorry Aspen, but not agreeing is not the same thing as arguing.

What your peddling isn't the truth. It is opinion you are trying to pass off as fact by pointing to other opinion.

Jesus said He was leaving but he was giving us another. The Holy Spirit. God inside you.

You don't need to have Him fed to you. He is already inside you.

You can't get more intimate than that.

The concept of it actually being His body and blood detracts from the whole idea of the role of the Holy Spirit and who He should be to you.

 

[aspen]

You are misrepresenting the teachings of my church Foreigner. I can understand if you no longer agree with the teachings, but it is not like you to misrepresent them.