The state of the church

[Episkopos]

Why can't you show me from the Bible or even outside the Bible where Jesus gave His Authority to anybody but His Apostles to form a Church different from His. How about some Bible verses to show the Authority and power as he gave his apostles , i can readily produce Bible verses in support of this from Jesus to His Apostles . Documentation please, Bible or otherwise..

Determining the ways of God are not achieved through a legal process but rather through the Spirit and the life that He produces along the way. The power of God is seen where men surrender to the will of God. No denomination has any exclusivity to the Holy Spirit. The charismatic movement started in the great Welsh revival and then to America at Azusa street...to name just a few moves of God. The Catholic church was later influenced by this movement...even leading to giving permission for people to read the bible on their own...of all things. The RC organization is too stuck in it's own traditions to see what is coming next.

 

[Axehead]

2Jn_1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

We know the doctrine of Christ is the only doctrine (teaching) that will conform one to godliness. Everyone who follows after a doctrine that does not conform them to godliness is destroyed. When you have believed a lie you have a false security and you do not act on the Word of God.

Paul wrote, "Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stone, wood, hay, stubble; every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire (powers of darkness) shall try every man's work of what sort it is. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (1 Cor. 3:12, 13, 11).

That is why we need the true apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers: "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ (until Christ's love is perfected in us). That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine" (Eph. 4:12-14).

Since the day that God put Adam in the garden, He has been testing the hearts of men. He is still testing the hearts of men and men are still being offered the tree of life or the tree of death. The ones that love the Lord with all their hearts will cling to Him and trust Him and will come through the fiery tests of this world. Those that do not put their full trust and faith in Him will break God's laws and be under the punishment and judgment of the law, because they love the idols in their hearts more than God.

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: but chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise government (2 Pet. 2:9, 10).


We have two choices: We either resist the flesh and the temptations of Satan, or else we will walk after the desires of the flesh in unrighteousness, in which case we stay under the judgment and punishment of God's law. You cannot walk in unrighteousness and expect God to be complicit in your sin. God has laws and His hedge of protection will come down when you walk in unrighteousness. God will chastise those that He loves.

However, the sleeping church today breathes a sigh of relief being smug in the fact that they have somehow reached a special status with God and they compliment one another exclaiming how nice it is to live in this "age of grace" when God does not discipline or expect His people to obey Him anymore.

But, can this really be true? Does God not expect His people to be holy and blameless or does He? Those that skip the hard scriptures as if they have "virtually" cut them out of their Bible, do so because they have a false security and a hardened heart. Their religious doctrine does not even see scriptures on judgement and chastening. Our forefathers did not heed these warnings and instead of obedience to God's Word they handed over to their offspring false doctrines of "peace and safety".

In the book of Acts we see that the apostles and disciples of the early Church were faithful to preach the whole message (whole counsel of God) that the prophets had spoken in their day. "Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, THAT WHICH IS SPOKEN OF IN THE PROPHETS (regarding the judgments of the powers of darkness); Behold, ye despisers, and wonder and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you" (Acts 13:40,41). The fallen away church is offended today when you try to explain to them about the powers of darkness in their midst and how they are destroying people every day that think they cannot be touched by the enemy when they walk in unrighteousness.

Jesus said, "I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful (WAKE UP!), and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works PERFECT (because you are not letting Me perfect you in love) before God. Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard (remember the Gospel of Jesus Christ), and hold fast, and REPENT. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief (in judgment), and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. He that overcometh (the world, the flesh and temptations of the Devil) shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life" (Rev. 3:1-3, 5).

Sleeping virgins today scoff at warnings like this! A great slumber (spiritual darkness from false doctrines of peace and safety) has come over the church today and many are being destroyed and don't even know it. Most of these people cannot even be led out of darkness by the very Scriptures themselves. They scoff at and mock the servants of God that have been sent to sound an alarm and the fires of destruction are already being poured out among us. Could this be why there is only a Remnant that will hear all of God's Word without "cutting out" any pages? For the others that only want to hear good things, it is business as usual but God is still calling to them and warning.


This remnant will love the Lord Jesus Christ with all their hearts and they will allow the Lord to perfect them in love and holiness. You will know them by their fruits. The stumbling blocks will also be revealed and God will destroy them. "Another parable put He forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also (tares are evident because they bear the fruit of the flesh)" (Matt. 13:24-26).


Through obedience the Lord purifies our heart and we are perfected in love to the fullness of the measure of the stature which belongs to Christ. The Word of God and the Holy Spirit are given to lead us in godliness and remove the selfish nature of Satan, so we no longer live for ourselves. Therefore we have the nature of God and love others as Jesus loved us. We have laid down our lives so we can walk in God's kind of love. (1 Cor. 13)

This God-kind of love is the only love which can love your neighbor as yourself: "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself' (Gal. 5:14). The only ones that will come through the fire are the ones that have this God kind of love which is the Divine nature, Christ in You.

Everything I have said here is BIBLE 101. This is the fundamentals of discipleship in Jesus Christ and yes it is all by His Grace and the power of His Holy Spirit, yet to most, it is like I am speaking a foreign language that they do not understand.

Axehead

I could write pages on this, but I'll stick with some shorter statements.

#1 The church - the true church which is not monopolized by any one institution or denomination, is the BRIDE of Christ. Watch out how you talk about God's woman. The church itself is not in disarray, but the people and phonies are. (Episkopos, please don't take that as a direct comment/accusation/whatever, because I know it's not what you meant.)

#2 The Bible talks repeatedly about the bride, and then talks about a Jezebel or prostitute. Do with that what you will, but I think a lot of what we see is not the bride, but the prostitute.

#3 I think the people of the church have failed in complacency. We've tried to fight battles politically and morally, and we've abandoned the ramparts of Jesus for a watered-down gospel of comfort in a fallen and broken world.

Hi Hammerstone,

Yes, I agree. There is a false, counterfeit church and a true church, but even Jesus had specific instructions for the 7 churches in Revelation, He has something to say to those true Believers in His Church today that have been confused with false doctrine and the lies of the enemy (and even their own sin).

Being a true Believer does not make one immune from deception and that is why we see so many warnings to the Church from Jesus and His Apostles. God even sent His prophets to His own nation of Israel to warn them and lead them out of their darkness. Being the nation of God that Israel was, did not exclude them from deception and lies.

God is committed to speaking to those that have ears to hear and we don't know who they are, but the Lord knows. Our job is to be faithful to the Lord, not guarantee results.

Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

Mother Theresa pointed out...God is wants us to be faithful...not succesful.

 

[neophyte]

Jesus only ever made , now this time try to understand, Jesus only made "ONE Church" get it , do you understand? At least that is what my Christian Holy Bible states.I don't believe that some of you people have a Christian Bible, because in the Christian Bible Jesus only gave His Authority and power to His Chosen Apostles/ Successors, if your church can not trace its lineage directly back to the Apostles, then it is not a Church that Jesus formed.It is clear as day from the Bible, why do you denounce the Words of Jesus when He speaks about His Church as being One Universal [ Catholic ] and Apostolic. Must I again show you those many verses that describe the Church along with which members make up Christ's Apostolic Church.

 

[Episkopos]

Jesus only ever made , now this time try to understand, Jesus only made "ONE Church" get it , do you understand? At least that is what my Christian Holy Bible states.I don't believe that some of you people have a Christian Bible, because in the Christian Bible Jesus only gave His Authority and power to His Chosen Apostles/ Successors, if your church can not trace its lineage directly back to the Apostles, then it is not a Church that Jesus formed.It is clear as day from the Bible, why do you denounce the Words of Jesus when He speaks about His Church as being One Universal [ Catholic ] and Apostolic. Must I again show you those many verses that describe the Church along with which members make up Christ's Apostolic Church.

We can't make a box....put " Holy Mother Apostolic Catholic Church" on the side and then claim that God has to back up the outrageous claim. Jesus Christ builds His own church with His own servants He can raise up from anywhere.

Maybe start a propaganda thread but please warn people it is dogma that is meant to convince the "masses"

 

[Foreigner]

Jesus only ever made , now this time try to understand, Jesus only made "ONE Church" get it , do you understand?

-- Is this how everyone in that church responds?

There are MILLIONS of born again, spirit filled Christians who are prophecying, laying hands on people and healing them, leading scores of people to Christ.

Guess since they don't go to Mass they aren't saved, huh?

Oh, they are? Of course they are.

That's because Jesus, when talking about his 'church' was talking about the body of believers, not a denomination.

Paul was a Jew, died a Jew, but preached the Gospel of Jesus to Jews and Gentiles alike as fulfillment of Jewish prophecy.

When he got knocked off the horse and given his sight back, I don't recall him being told to become a Catholic.




.

 

[neophyte]

I can't recall God calling anybody a Protestant either.

 

[Episkopos]

I can't recall God calling anybody a Protestant either.

Exactly....men love to compare themselves with each other. They justify themselves or their group in this way. This is very carnal. But those who do so are still in darkness. Men like to hide behind labels rather than come to the light in humility and brokenness.

 

[Foreigner]

I can't recall God calling anybody a Protestant either.

-- Or Catholic.

Looks like he was more about people following Him more than people following a specific denomination.

 

[neophyte]

-- Or Catholic.

Looks like he was more about people following Him more than people following a specific denomination.

We are presently writing to each other about one of the most discussed points among churchmen in that of finding the meaning to be attached to Christ's word: " I will build my church" If Christ did establish a Church, where is it to be found among all the churches that claim to be the true Church?

 

[Episkopos]

We are presently writing to each other about one of the most discussed points among churchmen in that of finding the meaning to be attached to Christ's word: " I will build my church" If Christ did establish a Church, where is it to be found among all the churches that claim to be the true Church?

Like fleas arguing over who owns the dog!

 

[neophyte]

Jesus built His Church, He said:" I will build my church" [ singular usage ] so tell me,are those the Words of Truth or just the words of a mere -man?

 

[Foreigner]

We are presently writing to each other about one of the most discussed points among churchmen in that of finding the meaning to be attached to Christ's word: " I will build my church" If Christ did establish a Church, where is it to be found among all the churches that claim to be the true Church?

-- He also said that "the gates of hell would not prevail against it." It appears then that is not the case.

 

[neophyte]

-- He also said that "the gates of hell would not prevail against it." It appears then that is not the case.

And so Jesus Words mean nothing to you? If evil prevailed against His Catholic Church then of course it's doctrinal teachings would have became corrupted after this invasion of evil,would you care to point out one doctrine that has ever became corrupted or rejected from Christ's Catholic Church from the time of Christ's promise?

 

[Foreigner]

And so Jesus Words mean nothing to you? If evil prevailed against His Catholic Church then of course it's doctrinal teachings would have became corrupted after this invasion of evil,..

- Yup. Pretty much.

The most egregious is the claim that every time the Priest prays over the bread it becomes the actual body and blood of Jesus.
He said "do this in rememberance of me," not "do this and it will physically become me."

Scientific proof that it never happens aside, the biggest question is this: Just how many times does Jesus' body have to be sacrificed?

The answer? Once.

Pretending the bread is now His actual body and the wine His actual blood may make you feel happy / special / unique, etc. etc. etc.

But it also makes you wrong.

 

[Episkopos]

Ahhh the state of the church revealed!!!!

 

[neophyte]

Ahhh the state of the church revealed!!!!

Only with finite minds. With your reasoning then you must not believe that the HS impregnated Mary and also the miracles performed by Jesus.

 

[Foreigner]

Only with finite minds. With your reasoning then you must not believe that the HS impregnated Mary and also the miracles performed by Jesus.

-- Jesus being born of a virgin and Jesus performing miracles were not only predicted in the Old Test. but documented in the New Test.

And where did it say in the Bible His actual body would be re-created several times every single day all around the world, thus voiding the fact that He needed to sacrifice His body JUST ONCE in order to pay the price for all our sins?

 

[aspen]

And where did it say in the Bible His actual body would be re-created several times every single day all around the world, thus voiding the fact that He needed to sacrifice His body JUST ONCE in order to pay the price for all our sins?

No one believes that Foreigner - and as a former Catholic you know it.

The Mass is not a re-creation - it is an echo of the one time sacrifice.

 

[mark s]

...is basically the same as the world...both going down in a downward spiral.

Is the answer more of man inspired evangelism we see so much of? Who brings more furniture into a burning building? Or perhaps we think the fire will be put out from the wind as Jesus spits the church out of His mouth????

Who is looking at the bigger picture?

I expect you are referring to the "apparent church"?

The true church is being built by Jesus, stone by stone. Living stones, of course!

I think the answer is more preaching of the rescue from lives of death and bondage through Jesus' redeeming grace. We need to let them know that Jesus sets men free!

Love in Christ,
Mark