The state of the church

[neophyte]

Couple of points then that you will need to ponder for yourself:

1. If "the Catholic Church recognizes "that many outside the church are saved" then those outside really don't need the Catholic version of 'Communion' in order to be saved.
2. It means that Catholics on this board claiming it is required for salvation are incorrect.
3. It would also then mean that Catholics themselves are not required to partake in Communion in order to be saved.

And since those that are saved (Catholic or otherwise) are FILLED with the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit IS God, there is then little need to snack on Him.

I would point out though that your statment "that have never through no fault of their own have never heard of the "Good News' of Jesus" are saved is wrong.
If that were true, then God's requirement to "preach the Gospel to all nations" would be a waste of time and actually do more harm than good.
How?
That would mean that if a person doesn't hear about Jesus, he is still going to see heaven, but if a person hears about Jesus and doesn't accept Him or falls away from, Him won't.

That...makes...zero...sense...


And has far as "His Church only Alone (by which you mean the Catholic church) contains the Fullness of the Faith"...that is ridiculous.
A born again Christian who has an intimate relationship with Jesus, shares the gospel, prophecies, heals the sick and casts out demons has AT LEAST the same "Fullness of Faith" than a person who does nothing more than a Catholic who does none of that but simply prays and occupies a church pew on Sundays.





-- You mean like 'indulgences?'
.




-- Absolutely true. And God's 'church' is made of up ALL of His believers. Not just Catholics.






.

Foreigner you wrote

1. If "the Catholic Church recognizes "that many outside the church are saved" then those outside really don't need the Catholic version of 'Communion' in order to be saved.
2. It means that Catholics on this board claiming it is required for salvation are incorrect.
3. It would also then mean that Catholics themselves are not required to partake in Communion in order to be saved.

MY ANSWER TO YOUR STATEMENTS ABOVE, IS THAT JESUS FORMED ONLY ONE TRUE CHURCH AND HIS CHURCH CONTAINS THE SACRAMENTS. YOUR THEOLOGICAL ANCESTORS ELIMINATED SOME AUTHENTIC BELIEFS AND ADDED NEW ONES OF THEIR OWN MAKING.


And since those that are saved (Catholic or otherwise) are FILLED with the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit IS God, there is then little need to snack on Him.

JESUS SAID UNTO THEM:" VERILY,verily, I SAY UNTO YOU, EXCEPT YE EAT THE FLESH OF THE SON OF MAN, AND DRINK HIS BLOOD, YE HAVE NO LIFE IN YOU.

I would point out though that your statment "that have never through no fault of their own have never heard of the "Good News' of Jesus" are saved is wrong.
If that were true, then God's requirement to "preach the Gospel to all nations" would be a waste of time and actually do more harm than good.
How? TO TEACH ALL NATIONS YES, BUT WHILE THIS WAS BEING ACCOMPLISHED IN THE INTERIM BEFORE THIS WAS ACCOMPLISHED MANY PEOLPE DIED , GET IT YET? IF NOT, KICK IN YOUR INTELLECT.
That would mean that if a person doesn't hear about Jesus, he is still going to see heaven, but if a person hears about Jesus and doesn't accept Him or falls away from, Him won't. EXACTLY

That...makes...MORE...sense... BECAUSE HIS APOSTOLIC/ CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS THE AUTHORITY FROM JESUS [ LUKE 10:16 ] [ JOHN 20:21 ] [ MATT. 16: 15-19 ]


And has far as "His Church only Alone (by which you mean the Catholic church) contains the Fullness of the Faith"...that is ridiculous. ONLY TO HERETICS MAYBE, BUT NOT TO JESUS


A born again Christian who has an intimate relationship with Jesus, shares the gospel, prophecies, heals the sick and casts out demons has AT LEAST the same "Fullness of Faith" than a person who does nothing more than a Catholic who does none of that but simply prays and occupies a church pew on Sundays.

CATHOLICS CAN ATTEND MASS EVERYDAY , NOT ONLY ON SUNDAY. CATHOLICS HEAR THE BIBLE AT EVERY MASS THEY ATTEND. I THOUGHT YOU SAID YOU ONCE WAS A CATHOLIC. NON-CATHOLIC CLERGY MUST TURN TO CATHOLIC CLERGY TO CAST OUT DEMONS THAT ARE DIFFICULT [ EXORCISMS ] AND LASTLY , ABOUT THAT INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS THAT YOU WROTE ABOUT, ONE CANNOT GET MORE INTIMATE WITH JESUS THAN TO PARTAKE OF THE HOLY EUCHARIST. ONLY GOD HIMSELF COULD EVER THINK OF THIS VERY HUMANE WAY OF RECEIVING THE PHYSICAL SON WITH BREAD- THE STAFF OF LIFE ,







-- You mean like 'indulgences?' WHAT ABOUT INDULGENCES ?
.



neophyte, on 02 August 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

God's Church on earth is as a hospital for sinners.


-- Absolutely true. And God's 'church' is made of up ALL of His believers. Not just Catholics. GOD ONLY MADE "ONE" CHURCH. JESUS SAID 'MY CHURCH ' NOT YOUR MINISTERS cHURCH.

 

[Foreigner]

I am torn between you starting to lose it and the fact that it is so fun to watch. :lol:

"WHAT ABOUT INDULGENCES ?" - Neophyte

-- Yup. That was my question.
You said, "the Catholic Church is and always will be perpetually protected by the promise of Jesus to protect the Apostolic/Catholic Church from teaching doctrinal error."
So.....Indulgences weren't "doctrinal error?"

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"MY ANSWER TO YOUR STATEMENTS ABOVE, IS THAT JESUS FORMED ONLY ONE TRUE CHURCH AND HIS CHURCH CONTAINS THE SACRAMENTS." - Neophyte.

-- You miss one small point.

Since there are scores of non-Catholic Christians around the world today who:
1. Are Born Again and love Jesus
2. Do not parktake in the "Sacraments"
3. Are leading people to Christ, and are healing the sick in His name via the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them...

...then you are going to have to accept the fact that - hold on to your rosary beads - THE 'SACRAMENTS' AREN'T NECESSARY TO DO GOD'S WORK HERE ON EARTH, LET ALONE GET INTO HEAVEN.

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"And has far as "His Church only Alone (by which you mean the Catholic church) contains the Fullness of the Faith"...that is ridiculous." - Me
"ONLY TO HERETICS MAYBE, BUT NOT TO JESUS" - Neophyte's Response

-- So Holy Spirit filled non-Catholics leading people to Christ, and healing the sick and casting out demons in His name viat the Holy Spirit.....do not have the "Fullness of the Faith?"
Or, to try it again, Billy Graham, C.S. Lewis, and Smith Wigglesworth do/did not have the "Fullness of the Faith?"
Try again....

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"JESUS SAID UNTO THEM:" VERILY,verily, I SAY UNTO YOU, EXCEPT YE EAT THE FLESH OF THE SON OF MAN, AND DRINK HIS BLOOD, YE HAVE NO LIFE IN YOU." - Neophyte

-- Sure SOUNDS like non-Catholic Christians who have given their lives to Jesus, lead others to know Jesus, have healed the sick and cast out demons have life in them.

Jesus asked His Father the night before He was crucified if there was perhaps a way for "this cup to pass over" him.
That means He was hoping he wouldn't have to suffer and die.
THAT is what Jesus is telling others here. If you are not willing to suffer and die, then you are not serious about your faith in Him.

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"NON-CATHOLIC CLERGY MUST TURN TO CATHOLIC CLERGY TO CAST OUT DEMONS" - Neophyte

-- Now you are simply showing your ignorance.
The pastors in three out of the last four churches I have attended in my life have cast out demons.
I have heard speakers discuss how they have cast out demons, and met people - MET PEOPLE - who were possessed but had demons driven out of them.
And Newsflash! It WASN'T by a Catholic priest.

Yes the Catholic Church has priests that do this. But they are absolutely not exclusive. Not even close.

I am willing to bet even Aspen or any other Catholic on this board would point out how wrong you are here.

Go ask. I dare you.

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ABOUT THAT INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS THAT YOU WROTE ABOUT, ONE CANNOT GET MORE INTIMATE WITH JESUS THAN TO PARTAKE OF THE HOLY EUCHARIST - Neophyte

-- Wow, then you REALLY have absolutely no idea what you have been missing.
I actually feel sorry for you.






.

 

[Albert Finch]

Over the years preaching has seeped into the Church that makes one believe that believers have to get good first before graduating from being a baby Christian. Well that happy day is never going to come if all they are doing is sitting at home, reading the bible-- trying to please God by improving their attitudes and behaviors, and thereby living unto themselves.

The best way to cultivate a love walk is through personal ministry to others (helping others with their spiritual life). That requires action, time, and involvement which automatically disqualifies most of the church.

At the root of this problem is poor preaching ie. preaching that does not exhort the congregation into the path of discipleship (of others)--promoting the idea that they are inadequate or not ready for some reason. This has got to change.
Jesus admonished the disciples, "...take heed what we hear.." (Mark 4:24). We should not sit under teaching we know is in error, because that spirit of error is being transmitted-- even though we may know that it is wrong -- it will eventually affect us if we hear it long enough.

Churches, that are not encouraging and equipping its members to disciple other believers, should be turned away from.

Now is the day of salvation!
Now is the day of the equipping of the saints!
Now is the day of Jesus Christ!


http://on.fb.me/MlLV6H
(Albert Finch Ministry on Facebook)

 

[Episkopos]

Churches, that are not encouraging and equipping its members to disciple other believers, should be turned away from.

Now is the day of salvation!
Now is the day of the equipping of the saints!
Now is the day of Jesus Christ!

 

[Episkopos]

The church has one function...making disciples.

Mar_8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.


Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit: Mat. 28:19

A believer has a set of beliefs he clings to ...but a disciple is learning...growing and advancing in understanding, wisdom, and the knowledge of God. When a disciple stops learning and growing he settles down as mere believer again.

 

[winc]

let Jesus tell us about His small Church not numbered in millions or billions"Fear not little flock for it is God's good fortune to give you the kingdom" - Peter has failed but his faith and our faith has not because of this little flock in the Catholic church - it is essential that it be found "for broad is the road" to accomadate the millions and billions - twinc

 

[neophyte]

FOREIGNER, YOU WROTE : ""WHAT ABOUT INDULGENCES ?" - Neophyte

-- Yup. That was my question.
You said, "the Catholic Church is and always will be perpetually protected by the promise of Jesus to protect the Apostolic/Catholic Church from teaching doctrinal error."
So.....Indulgences weren't "doctrinal error?"

Foreigner, are you the one who said that you're an ex-Catholic ? In a pigs eye you were.Selling Indulgences is not a Catholic doctrine.

Since the power of granting indulgences was conferred by Christ on the Church (cf. Mt 16:19, 18:18, Jn 20:23), and she has even in the earliest times made use of that power divinely given to her, the holy council teaches and commands that the use of indulgences, most salutary to the Christian people and approved by the authority of the holy councils, is to be retained in the Church, and it condemns with anathema those who assert that they are useless or deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them.
In granting them, however, it desires that in accordance with the ancient and approved custom in the Church moderation be observed, lest by too great facility ecclesiastical discipline be weakened. But desiring that the abuses which have become connected with them, and by any reason of which this excellent name of indulgences is blasphemed by the heretics, be amended and corrected, it ordains in a general way by the present decree that all evil traffic in them, which has been a most prolific source of abuses among the Christian people, be absolutely abolished. Other abuses, however, of this kind which have sprung from superstition, ignorance, irreverence, or from whatever other sources, since by reason of the manifold corruptions in places and provinces where they are committed, they cannot conveniently be prohibited individually, it commands all bishops diligently to make note of, each in his own church, and report them to the next provincial synod. (Sess. 25, Decree on Indulgences)​

 

[dragonfly]

Hi neophyte,

'So.....Indulgences weren't "doctrinal error?"

Foreigner, are you the one who said that you're an ex-Catholic ? In a pigs eye you were.Selling Indulgences is not a Catholic doctrine.

Since the power of granting indulgences was conferred by Christ on the Church (cf. Mt 16:19, 18:18, Jn 20:23), and she has even in the earliest times made use of that power divinely given to her, the holy council teaches and commands that the use of indulgences, most salutary to the Christian people and approved by the authority of the holy councils, is to be retained in the Church, and it condemns with anathema those who assert that they are useless or deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them.
In granting them, however, it desires that in accordance with the ancient and approved custom in the Church moderation be observed, lest by too great facility ecclesiastical discipline be weakened. But desiring that the abuses which have become connected with them, and by any reason of which this excellent name of indulgences is blasphemed by the heretics, be amended and corrected, it ordains in a general way by the present decree that all evil traffic in them, which has been a most prolific source of abuses among the Christian people, be absolutely abolished. Other abuses, however, of this kind which have sprung from superstition, ignorance, irreverence, or from whatever other sources, since by reason of the manifold corruptions in places and provinces where they are committed, they cannot conveniently be prohibited individually, it commands all bishops diligently to make note of, each in his own church, and report them to the next provincial synod. (Sess. 25, Decree on Indulgences)'​

It is too late to pretend that indulgences were not sold. The implication of the piece you've quoted therefore, is that they are free?

Can you confirm this?

 

[aspen]

I think the only point of debate is whether the Pope knew that Bishops were selling indulgences or not. History is clear that indulgences were being sold. The fact that St. Peter's Basilica was being built at the time, and the schism of the Popes was drawing money away from the Vatican, makes it more than likely

I am Catholic, but I am also a student of history - there is no doubt that the Catholic Church was political and contained a great deal of corruption by the time Martin Luther finally wrote his 95 thesis. Thankfully, doctrine was spared.

 

[Prentis]

What good does it do if doctrine is spared but the life is lost? What good is a profession using all the right words but a practice which does not align with it?

I am not trying to belittle the importance of doctrine, not at all, and I do see that some of the doctrine found in catholicism is precious and lost to the evangelical world. But I am trying to point to the fact that no matter how right we are in our words, if the life is not within us, we are still just a dead corpse.

 

[neophyte]

Hi neophyte,

'So.....Indulgences weren't "doctrinal error?"

Foreigner, are you the one who said that you're an ex-Catholic ? In a pigs eye you were.Selling Indulgences is not a Catholic doctrine.

Since the power of granting indulgences was conferred by Christ on the Church (cf. Mt 16:19, 18:18, Jn 20:23), and she has even in the earliest times made use of that power divinely given to her, the holy council teaches and commands that the use of indulgences, most salutary to the Christian people and approved by the authority of the holy councils, is to be retained in the Church, and it condemns with anathema those who assert that they are useless or deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them.
In granting them, however, it desires that in accordance with the ancient and approved custom in the Church moderation be observed, lest by too great facility ecclesiastical discipline be weakened. But desiring that the abuses which have become connected with them, and by any reason of which this excellent name of indulgences is blasphemed by the heretics, be amended and corrected, it ordains in a general way by the present decree that all evil traffic in them, which has been a most prolific source of abuses among the Christian people, be absolutely abolished. Other abuses, however, of this kind which have sprung from superstition, ignorance, irreverence, or from whatever other sources, since by reason of the manifold corruptions in places and provinces where they are committed, they cannot conveniently be prohibited individually, it commands all bishops diligently to make note of, each in his own church, and report them to the next provincial synod. (Sess. 25, Decree on Indulgences)'​

It is too late to pretend that indulgences were not sold. The implication of the piece you've quoted therefore, is that they are free?

Can you confirm this?

Cardinal Cajetan (Tommaso de Vio, 1469-1534) wrote about the problem: "Preachers act in the name of the Church so long as they teach the doctrines of Christ and the Church; but if they teach, guided by their own minds and arbitrariness of will, things of which they are ignorant, they cannot pass as representatives of the Church; it need not be wondered at that they go astray."

 

[Axehead]

The Catholic Doctrines are a "Patchwork" Gospel.

Always changing and always adding "patches" to it's garment.

Soon, Rome will have a new doctrine (new patch for its quilt) and will announce that our sister in Christ, Mary, is Co-Mediator with Jesus Christ.

She will be called Co-Mediatrix.

More TRIX from Rome.

"Far from Rome, near to God."

Axehead

 

[aspen]

So Axehead - how can a person be a Christian and belong to the Catholic Church, based on your understanding of Rome's teachings? If it is not possible, how do you explain Augustine, St. Francis, Thomas Kempis, and my own witness of Christ?

It is pretty ironic that so many of you noncatholics love to ring the heresy bell every time the word Catholic is mentioned, yet if any Catholic suggests that you have been cut off from Christ's true church, the sarcasm, name calling and attack mode is in full force

 

[dragonfly]

Hi aspen,

You are humbly requested to understand there is a cosmic difference between 'Catholicism' as a system of religion and the Church invisible, which includes all believers who genuinely know the Lord.

http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/05/the_visible_vs_the_invisible_c.php

 

[Axehead]

So Axehead - how can a person be a Christian and belong to the Catholic Church, based on your understanding of Rome's teachings?

I don't know how they can be if they are basing it on Rome's teachings which go against God's Word is so many places. I view Catholicism as a cult like Mormonism or Jehovah's Witness, because of the false doctrine of transubstantiation and the idolatry of Mary and the "Saints", to name just a couple. Please don't try to explain as I know the explanations. I notice you like to quote:

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. If it is not possible, how do you explain Augustine, St. Francis, Thomas Kempis, and my own witness of Christ?

And, am grateful that the Holy Spirit included, John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

If Jesus is physical bread, then I guess He is a physical door, also. Let's see, what other metaphors is Jesus likened to, that we are mistaken about that are really not metaphors but the physical object, itself? How come you don't recognize John 6:63?

It is pretty ironic that so many of you noncatholics love to ring the heresy bell every time the word Catholic is mentioned,

Actually, this is my first time weighing in on a "Catholic" thread.

yet if any Catholic suggests that you have been cut off from Christ's true church, the sarcasm, name calling and attack mode is in full force

Look Aspen, Rome has created a caricature of itself, and they are their own worst enemy so don't blame everyone for comparing their teachings with the teachings of Rome. Like the Bereans in Acts 17, It is what a Christian is supposed to do. We are to check to see if "teachings" line up with God's Word. We are not impressed by Rome's "pomp", the Pope's red shoes, the ostentatiousness of the Vatican, the Vatican Bank, ambassadors in every country, the Jesuit intellecuals, etc, etc, or the fact that Catholics lament they are persecuted just because people don't agree or accept or receive the RCC's teachings. People have a right not to believe anything that does not line up with God's Word.

Give me the "simplicity of Jesus Christ" any day!!

If the RCC has the "fullness of the faith", how come thousands of priests cannot control themselves, sexually? It's just demonic, because we are not talking with other adults but with children!! You really need to stop pushing the RCC and "The One True Church", because that is really embarrassing to Jesus. It is all a lie and these men have no power over their flesh at all. They do not have the Holy Spirit and cannot call Jesus down from heaven and magically put him into a piece of bread so that people can swallow him. I read that even though they were in sin they could still perform transubstantiation. Where is their power over sin? Instead, they commit some of the most abominable sins there are.

Someone used the term "brainwash" and that is pretty much correct. I wish I could tell you to WAKE UP, but the RCC spirit is extremely strong in many people.

I have nothing against people of any belief, but that doesn't mean I will accept the teachings of their faith. Don't confuse my disdain for false teachings for a disdain for people because that is what the RCC likes to do. They would rather shift the spotlight to people instead of their teachings, or their extravagance. They love to re-frame the discussion to "people that hate Catholics" rather than "people that find Catholic teaching repugnant to the Spirit of Christ".

I just want you to be clear about where I stand regarding RCC Teaching versus Catholics, themselves. I have no animosity or hate towards any man.

Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

This thread has actually been hyjacked by the catholic agenda. We are not concerned on this thread about the accuracy of doctrine or dogma...but the poor practice that has led to the state of the modern church.

 

[Axehead]

This thread has actually been hyjacked by the catholic agenda. We are not concerned on this thread about the accuracy of doctrine or dogma...but the poor practice that has led to the state of the modern church.

I agree and I should not have posted to Aspen. Let's get back on topic.

Axehead

 

[aspen]

Actually I agree with Episkopos - this thread is off track.

So Episkopos, how has poor practice (Christianity?) led to the state of the modern church (which I am assuming is a bad state)?

I tend to believe that the practice of loving God and neighbor has been replaced by a focus on social status in mainline churches and a focus on disagreement and arguing over doctrinal nuance in conservative churches.

Every time I see a new denomination I see another example of the inability of Christians to agree with each other and another vain attempt to imitate the early church.

 

[Episkopos]

Actually I agree with Episkopos - this thread is off track.

So Episkopos, how has poor practice (Christianity?) led to the state of the modern church (which I am assuming is a bad state)?

I tend to believe that the practice of loving God and neighbor has been replaced by a focus on social status in mainline churches and a focus on disagreement and arguing over doctrinal nuance in conservative churches.

Every time I see a new denomination I see another example of the inability of Christians to agree with each other and another vain attempt to imitate the early church.

What is lacking is leadership. In the old days the enemy would just have to kill the shepherd and the sheep would scatter. So the state would burn the bishops at the stake or cut their heads off. Then OTHER leaders would take their place but whom the state did not take as a threat. So the church became acceptable to the reigning principalities and powers. The sheep didn't seem to mind so much...until another leader showed up.

So to muddy the waters more..a different doctrine was introduced cobbled together from attractive sounding verses.

So the combination of killing off the leaders and bad doctrine eventually led to a horrible practice that mirrored the worst we see in mankind. Then a lack of leadership emerged owing to the efficiency of the false doctrines. Who would stand against the established church?

What to restore first?

Well true leadership seeks to establish proper doctrine AND practice. The best defense of the truth is the practice of the truth.

Something new must be tried. Actually the return of true apostolic doctrine and the power that exemplified the early church. There is no going back to the old days, though. The church must be transformed into a community of heaven that exceeds the witness of the early church. We are living in a time that is very interesting for those who are willing to embark on a great adventure. The restoration of the saints to the power of replacing the principalities that currently blind the world to the truth. The rise of the saints is what we seek. The preparation, no less, of the bride for the coming King Jesus. That is our agenda.

 

[Axehead]

What is lacking is leadership. In the old days the enemy would just have to kill the shepherd and the sheep would scatter. So the state would burn the bishops at the stake or cut their heads off. Then OTHER leaders would take their place but whom the state did not take as a threat. So the church became acceptable to the reigning principalities and powers. The sheep didn't seem to mind so much...until another leader showed up.

So to muddy the waters more..a different doctrine was introduced cobbled together from attractive sounding verses.

So the combination of killing off the leaders and bad doctrine eventually led to a horrible practice that mirrored the worst we see in mankind. Then a lack of leadership emerged owing to the efficiency of the false doctrines. Who would stand against the established church?

What to restore first?

Well true leadership seeks to establish proper doctrine AND practice. The best defense of the truth is the practice of the truth.

Something new must be tried. Actually the return of true apostolic doctrine and the power that exemplified the early church. There is no going back to the old days, though. The church must be transformed into a community of heaven that exceeds the witness of the early church. We are living in a time that is very interesting for those who are willing to embark on a great adventure. The restoration of the saints to the power of replacing the principalities that currently blind the world to the truth. The rise of the saints is what we seek. The preparation, no less, of the bride for the coming King Jesus. That is our agenda.

Well said!!