The state of the church

[dragonfly]

Hi brightmorningstar,

In principle if someone doesnt think as a Christian one can argue they arent Christian.

C'mon... The renewing of the mind is a process - it's going to take a long time!

Some people can read scripture and adopt its ways of reasoning, while others have to be changed by real life three dimensional processing of the same words. We need to be patient with one another. Some trees bear fruit within five years, others don't start till they're thirty. God created them both and is working in both according to His good pleasure.

 

[brightmorningstar]

I fully agree, but there is also a dividing line and difference between teaching, correcting and encouraging each other according to the word and the spirit, accepting interpretation, and someone who simply denies the word and claims they believe it.

I am think of the likes of Jeffrey John in the Anglican church who is clearly false teaching contrary to the Bible and telling people not to listen to his church but to listen to him. John Selby Spong would be another, doesnt even hold to teh Nicene Creed.
So, as an example, the priniciple is, someone who practices Islam and calls themseleves Christian, whilst they may come to faith, isnt yet a Christian and shouldnt be treated as one.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi brightmorningstar,

There is a distinction between a person who has been given oversight of sheep, and a sheep in that fold, with regard to how they as individuals will be judged for what they knew or didn't know, said or didn't say or do (and so on).

Your example of a Muslim who has not come to faith, is no different from any other person who has not come to faith. We can tell whether a person is exercising faith by how they behave, regardless of what they call themselves. But it would be a mistake to expect everyone to arrive at the same understandings, in the same order and stages of their walk with the Lord. We have to trust that God has our lives in His hands and is leading us all in the working-out of our salvation no matter what it looks like to another believer. God is looking on the heart, and we (humans) are notoriously slow to realise our limitations in that area - that we cannot know anything except by the Holy Spirit.

A wise older brother in the Lord offers this advice - that where there is criticism, there is usually at least one piece of information missing in the fact file held by the critic. If that one piece of information became available, their conclusion would be different.

 

[justaname]

Hi Episkopos,



The problem with this statement is that appears immediately anti-scriptural, because Paul did speak about imputed righteousness with regard to both the Old and the New Covenants.

As New Covenant believers we ought to understand both, and be able to explain the difference to those who don't understand it.




To justaname,



This seems to be a teaching which is going around, but it has no foundation in scripture.



For instance, look at these verses:

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel,

and with the house of Judah: ​

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he says, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant

with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: ​

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling,

that speaks better things than [that of] Abel. ​

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying,

This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me. ​

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament;

not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.​

The 2 Cor passage is what I ment by not the same type of covenant

 

[dragonfly]

Hi justaname,

The 2 Cor passage is what I ment by not the same type of covenant

I'm not sure which part in 2 Corinthians you have in mind. Could you please point me to the chapter and verse?

Originally you'd said

The establishing of the church was not covenantal in the same way the establishing of Israel was.

Are you now saying, it was a different kind of covenant, but a covenant nevertheless?

 

[justaname]

There is truth in what you say, but I wonder if you bring it too far.

God has indeed chosen and predestined us... But to what? This life is a race. God selects who he wants to see run, but it is still the runner who must participate. Yes, it is God who makes one swift, and gives one the victory... But he does it impartially, and gives to the one who deserves to win. God gives us grace, but it is for us to decide what we do with it... Bury it? Advance further?

There is a deep deception that is very widespread in modern Christianity that eliminates the race from the gospel. It short circuits the whole purpose of the gospel.

We are called and given gifts that we might run and attain to what we are called to. The error being spread is that the whole purpose of being here is that we would be called. And then, it's done. We were called... It's over. But the opposite is true. We are here to run the race! We are here to attain to Christ!

May God give his people a vision, a direction, as to our calling in Him! The church deeply needs it.

We have a vision it is revealed in the Bible.
Love God. Love others as ourselves. Spread the gospel and God's love throughout His creation. Stir up each other to good works. Edify the church. Walk in the Spirit. Stop sinning. And so on...

Hi justaname,



I'm not sure which part in 2 Corinthians you have in mind. Could you please point me to the chapter and verse?

Originally you'd said


Are you now saying, it was a different kind of covenant, but a covenant nevertheless?

I still stand by what I said.
It is not a covenant in the same way the old covenant was.
2 Corinthians 3:5-9

Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,​

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6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.​

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7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,​

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8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?​

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9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.​

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Also to be sure the Law does not give life, but the new covenant does.​

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The Old covenant was based on a suzerainty treaty http://www.fivesolas.com/suzerain.htm​

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where as the new covenant is not the exact same.​

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[dragonfly]

Hi justaname,

Many thanks. Further comments may follow in a while...

 

[justaname]

I believe that is true. God predestines us, and he will finish his work in us...

But the word must be taken in balance, it gives these promises, and they are true. But the Bible also gives us 'IF's.


Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.


Heb 6:15 And so, after he (Abraham) had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

Seems our author was not a believer of 'faith alone', and neither are any of the other NT authors, if we would only look close enough. We must consider both the goodness and severity of the Lord. His goodness in that he gives us the most wondrous promises, and his severity in that he warns those who would take them lightly.

The modern gospel tells us NOT to consider the severity of God, that it is not for us... But this is not the voice of God speaking, it is the enemy!

Romans 10

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,​

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9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;​

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10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.​

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Righteousness in accordance with everyone except Jesus Christ is because of faith not works.​

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1John 1​

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8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.​

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.​

This is not to say we can keep sinning, rather we simply asked to be honest with ourselves and God.​

To continue in the teaching given by John:​

3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.​

4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;​

5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:​

6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.​

Now the question begs to be asked "What are His commandments?"​

Luke 10​

27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.”​

28 And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.”​

This is the fullness of the gospel! There is no need to add to it, subtract from it, or replace it. Anything else is from the enemy!​

 

[MTPockets]

The gospel of the kingdom is about being born of the Spirit and walking as bond slaves of Christ according to the Spirit. It is about ownership by Christ and obedience to the law of God through the grace of Jesus Christ which is by faith.

Hi! Episkopos
You neglected to mention the most distinguishing mark concerning the Gospel of the Kingdom.

There are two Gospels:
For instance: Acts 17:18 clearly states that the disciples, "preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection".

1. The gospel ABOUT Jesus which announces the "principles of the doctrine of Christ", (Heb 6:1). This is also known as the 'gospel of John the Baptist' and/or 'gospel of repentance', 'gospel of peace'. It equips "whosoever will" to follow after the footPRINTS of Jesus which echo the refrain, "Repent and be saved!".
and,
2. The Gospel OF Jesus which announces the invitation "let us go on unto perfection". This is also known as the 'Gospel of the Kingdom', 'gospel of Jesus Christ', 'gospel of the kingdom of God', 'gospel of God', 'gospel of His Son', 'gospel of Christ', 'gospel of our Lord'.

The Gospel of the Kingdom clearly announces that heaven is not a destination; it is our HOME ... where we NOW have a citizenship.
Those who hear the Gospel of the Kingdom become equipped to follow in the footSTEPS of Jesus, (as opposed to His footPRINTS on the shores of Galillee).
Following His footSTEPS means "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life", (Rom 6:4). The doctrine of the resurrection of the dead can be said to be the most important pillar of fundamental Christianity, "If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised", 1Cor 15:13).

Episkopos, ask yourself the question: What does it mean to be raised from the dead?
If your answer is that this belongs to the time of judgement, you'd be wrong.
Instead, you should be thinking about those who share in the first resurrection; "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years", (Rev 20:4-6).

In the case of the prodigal son resurrection started when he said: 'I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' His resurrection became a fact when the Father accepted him, put the best robe on him, and provided a ring on his hand and shoes on his feet. Then the Father said about his son: 'He was dead, and is alive again.' (Luke 15:11-32). Jesus described the spiritual resurrection in these words: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live", (John 5:24-25).


Many Christians wrongly think that a believer goes to heaven only after he dies.
If this is so, how can his ways and citizenship be in heaven? How will he be able to fight and conquer in the heavenlies if he is not present there?
The Scripture says: "And raised us up with him, and made us sit with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus", (Eph 2:6).
He who is in Christ, that is, he who belongs to His spiritual body of which He is the Head, moves and has his being (citizenship) n heaven, in the Kingdom of God, which is the good part of the Kingdom of heaven.

The Gospel of the Kingdom enables us to fulfill our Lord's prayer: "Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory", (John 17:24).

Our life in the heavenly places is in faith. We see with eyes that are opened spiritually. Natural feet cannot tread in the spiritual world, physical eyes cannot see it hands of flesh cannot touch it. There we hear God's voice in the inner man and express ourselves in images derived from natural life, to create a picture of the unseen, unheard and untouched reality.

Jesus spoke of this world where our citizenship is in parables. He began His parables with these words: "The Kingdom of heaven may be compared to ...".
Jesus said: "I am the resurrection and the life".
We are resurrected with Him when we follow His footSTEPS and adopt His ways of thinking, for then we will speak and act as He did. Then we view earthly circumstances from the heavenly places, from 'above'.
When a beloved disciple tried to keep Jesus from going to Jerusalem to suffer and die the Lord saw immediately who it was that had influenced and penetrated Peter in the spiritual world. Therefore the Lord said to Peter: "Get thee behind me, Satan".
Before the same disciple denied Him, Jesus warned that Satan would sift him like wheat. But the Lord also told him that He had prayed for Peter, that He had been active in the heavenly places to save this apostle from the devices of Satan.

There are Christians who remain unaware of the gospel of the kingdom; and therefore lack insight concerning the Kingdom of heaven and remain unable to live and develop there. Their life is primarily based on the Old Testament. Their knowledge is related to the natural world and this world does not go beyond the grave. The things that lie beyond the grave are a closed book to them.

We no longer need to quote the words of Moses: "The secret things belong to the Lord our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever", (Deut 29:29). Instead, as New Covenant Christians we testify with Paul saying: "For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths (the deepest thoughts) of God", (1Cor 2:10).

Episkopos, we rejoice in having received this Spirit!

When we were born again, we were resurrected to a newness of life.
To us applies: "Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead".
This should make it clear that this unseen man, the inner man, does not die a second time to be resurrected a second time at the coming of Jesus.
Jesus said to the faithful of the New Covenant that they would never see or taste death, (John 8:51-52), and that those who believe in Him shall live, even though they die, and whoever lives and believes in Him shall never die, (John 11:25-26).

Since we have arose from spiritual death and continue to persevere in faith, we will not fall victim to death and Hades. We belong to the body of Christ and have, just as that body, eternal life only. When we die, (when our soul is separated from our body), we remain at home with the Lord, (1Cor 5:8). Death no longer has dominion over us because we are united with Jesus Christ, the Head of the body, Who has conquered death, (Romans 6:9).
On earth we live in the power of the Holy Spirit; the same Spirit who raised Jesus from the dead.
He who is united with such a Spirit will not enter death. Neither does that Spirit abandon us when we die.
Timothy 1:10 says that Christ Jesus abolished death and has brought to light life and immortality through the gospel. This means He has done away with death.

The first resurrection began for us when our life was restored on the new foundation of God. It will be completed in the physical resurrection.
The temple of God becomes complete when we have been restored in soul, spirit and body; when we are completely filled with the Spirit of God.

The kernel has the invisible life in itself and this life is the beginning of the new plant. The kernel does not produce a kernel, but a new plant which will produce new kernels later. The new life starts at regeneration and it grows just like a plant develops from the seed. The seed is not made alive, it dies. But that which was its life develops into a new plant.

In the same way, the physical body that dies is not made alive again. Rather, it decomposes in the same way as the outside of the kernel.
The inner life develops into a new appearance which is different from the seed; but in keeping with the laws of life that were hidden in it.
From every seed an individual body develops. It may be a tree, a shrub, or some kind of corn or any other kind of plant. The plant which develops may be compared with the spiritual house. The seed that vanished decomposes to dust, (natural body), but the plant itself develops in another atmosphere where there is light and air and sun.

When our Lord returns, those who slept in Christ will be raised; they will arise first. Their spiritual body is raised, (1Cor 15:44), but their physical body has long returned to dust and will not be raised.

Our resurrection is a new life and work in the unseen world.
Those who have fallen asleep have rested from their labors, but at a sign of the Most High they will arise and take up their work. The power of God gives substance to their spiritual bodies, giving it flesh and bones; similar to ;hat of the glorified Lord. However, the spiritual body remains spiritual (subjected to spiritual laws only). For this reason, it is not confined in time or place.

Episkopos, yes indeed, life in the body of resurrection is a mystery.
But let me draw you a weak illustration:
We know that water vapor is invisible. It is subject to the physical laws for gases. Water vapor is even able to penetrate walls. Under certain circumstances, however, it is transformed and becomes visible as water, fog, frost, snow or hail, which are all subjected to the laws for solids or liquids. The Lord's immortal body was able to penetrate doors but at the same time Jesus said: "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have", (Luke 24:39).
When Jesus ascended to heaven a cloud "took Him out of their sight".
Now Jesus is in the heavenly places only. Although the possibility still exists for our Lord to appear in a visible shape, (Mark 16:12). This is what happened to John at Patmos, and to Paul, who is told that he is appointed "to see the Just One and to hear a voice from His mouth", (Acts 22:14).

Episkopos, the gospel of the kingdom reveals that, during our lives on earth, we simultaneously move and have our being in two worlds.
In our physical body, we dwell on earth, "away from the Lord" in a foreign country.
But our spiritual body is in Christ. Meaning to say: in Christ's body.
When we die, we are detached from the natural sphere and dwell with the Lord only.
When Jesus returns to earth He is accompanied by the saints who have fallen asleep. When He appears they will appear with Him.
Those Christians who remain alive until the coming of the Lord, will be changed in a moment, "in the twinkling of an eye".
Their perishable bodies will be transformed into immortal and glorified bodies.
In these bodies, they will be caught up to meet the Lord to join the saints who have already risen, (1Thess 4:16-17).
Then the time has arrived when the "planting of the Lord" will functioning anew and bear new fruit.

By the way, I did not discuss above the last resurrection; in which the dead, small and great, will stand before the throne of God.