John 3 Jesus discussion with Nicodemus

[amigo de christo]

what does this mean?

beats me my friend .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What does circumcision for a man represent? Can the two be compared one symbolic and not able to make one perfect because if that is the case doctors do well circumcising infants…or the circumcision of Christ in the removal of the vail that is over the heart(active, changes everything). So are you saying the blood spilled by the high priest on the ark is the same as Christ’s shed blood? Because animals blood spilled can do nothing to make one clean. I get what you are saying …it’s a symbol. but that is the point I’m trying to also make, of the ark made with hands that it lacked same as animal sacrifices lacked. question is what does(did) it lack?

Not sure what this has to do with the sacrifice on the day of atonement. Can you answer that please. Why did they sactififice

as for circumcision. It represents one has been cleaned, just like water baptism did..

Paul tells us about it..

col 2:
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the [i]handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.


What was contrary to us, and what was taken away, having been nailed to the cross.

in this the circumcision.baptism and sacrifice on the day of atonement are all united.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

beats me my friend .

She explained it. I understand now.. I misunderstood her

 

[amigo de christo]

She explained it. I understand now.. I misunderstood her

what does it mean .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

what does it mean .

She meant Jesus was telling nicodemus his problem. i agreed.

 

[face2face]

I answered the question, and I expounded on it here

It is obvious you have not read what I said.. Here I will post this to you also.

can you respond to the points I made?

While this is true it doesnt answer the question why Jesus choose that story to teach Nicodemus. I want you to narrow you thinking in one the story and how that story would relate to what you call "the sin problem", which is a good phrase.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

While this is true it doesnt answer the question why Jesus choose that story to teach Nicodemus. I want you to narrow you thinking in one the story and how that story would relate to what you call "the sin problem", which is a good phrase.

Yet he explained it

just as those who looked to the serpent lived, so to will those who look to Christ ho was risen on a cross

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Not sure what this has to do with the sacrifice on the day of atonement. Can you answer that please. Why did they sactififice

Never denied it was a foreshadow of Christ. Your thread is discussing two births and Nicodemus. Why was a natural birth spoken of with a Spiritual birth? I admitted it’s only an opinion but I’m being genuine even if I’m confused …that I don’t see how a temple made with hands or Temple made without hands; natural birth or Spiritual Birth; or ark or Ark; the circumcision made with hands or circumcision made without hands …I don’t see how they all do not speak of that made with hands and that made without hands. But it’s a debate I’ll never win. Same as what is the difference in temples made with hands and The Temple made without hands. Same with the ark. I was only sharing what it means to me.

as for circumcision. It represents one has been cleaned, just like water baptism did..

Circumcision (a males body part) may represent being clean. But it does not make any clean. Only the Circumcision of Christ in the removal of the vail over the heart makes clean. God removes it, not man. (Again that is just my perspective). That I don’t care if it is recited or chanted all day long that circumcision of an infant represents one made clean. It only represents. But holds no power to make one clean. To me it is the heart being circumcised of God that makes one clean. Only then through the circumcision of Christ can there be sight …it’s the heart that changes no? Heart and mind and out from that something transforming takes place. Whether the males part is circumcised has no bearing on the man’s heart. (Imo)

Paul tells us about it..

col 2:
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body [h]of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the [i]handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

The heart.

in this the circumcision.baptism and sacrifice on the day of atonement are all united.

So then which circumcision, baptism, sacrifice are united? The Circumcision of Christ (Spiritual), the baptism of Christ (Spiritual), the sacrifice of Christ (Spiritual) (for the flesh is weak but the Spirit is Willing).

It is not these three united: a males body part circumcised, going to get dunked in water at church, and animal sacrifices. United? Look on the thread these three divide. Debate after debate of circumcision of males body parts, animals sacrifices, which temple, which ark, which sacrifices, which baptism is it submerged or sprinkled? which church? I’m not denying they are shadows but they point to what is better than all three. One Spirit. Even marriage …man and woman made one flesh. Yet it says those untied with Christ become One Spirit. A preacher pronounces man and woman “One flesh” God pronounces the body joined with Christ “One Spirit”. And that’s what God does, not man. Same with the ark made with hands or The Ark made without hands. The two are as different as a natural birth and Spiritual birth (Imo)which comes from God and not man.

I get you disagree. That is okay. But if we really want to compare the Ark of Christ to the ark of noah then I’m left with one question always and it’s: how many did it save? That alone should say the ark made with hands is a pale light to the Light of Christ.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Never denied it was a foreshadow of Christ. Your thread is discussing two births and Nicodemus. Why was a natural birth spoken of with a Spiritual birth? I admitted it’s only an opinion but I’m being genuine even if I’m confused …that I don’t see how a temple made with hands or Temple made without hands; natural birth or Spiritual Birth; or ark or Ark; the circumcision made with hands or circumcision made without hands …I don’t see how they all do not speak of that made with hands and that made without hands. But it’s a debate I’ll never win. Same as what is the difference in temples made with hands and The Temple made without hands. Same with the ark. I was only sharing what it means to me.

Circumcision (a males body part) may represent being clean. But it does not make any clean. Only the Circumcision of Christ in the removal of the vail over the heart makes clean. God removes it, not man. (Again that is just my perspective). That I don’t care if it is recited or chanted all day long that circumcision of an infant represents one made clean. It only represents. But holds no power to make one clean. To me it is the heart being circumcised of God that makes one clean. Only then through the circumcision of Christ can there be sight …it’s the heart that changes no? Heart and mind and out from that something transforming takes place. Whether the males part is circumcised has no bearing on the man’s heart. (Imo)

The heart.

So then which circumcision, baptism, sacrifice are united? The Circumcision of Christ (Spiritual), the baptism of Christ (Spiritual), the sacrifice of Christ (Spiritual) (for the flesh is weak but the Spirit is Willing).

It is not these three united: a males body part circumcised, going to get dunked in water at church, and animal sacrifices. United? Look on the thread these three divide. Debate after debate of circumcision of males body parts, animals sacrifices, which temple, which ark, which sacrifices, which baptism is it submerged or sprinkled? which church? I’m not denying they are shadows but they point to what is better than all three. One Spirit. Even marriage …man and woman made one flesh. Yet it says those untied with Christ become One Spirit. A preacher pronounces man and woman “One flesh” God pronounces the body joined with Christ “One Spirit”. And that’s what God does, not man. Same with the ark made with hands or The Ark made without hands. The two are as different as a natural birth and Spiritual birth (Imo)which comes from God and not man.

I get you disagree. That is okay. But if we really want to compare the Ark of Christ to the ark of noah then I’m left with one question always and it’s: how many did it save? That alone should say the ark made with hands is a pale light to the Light of Christ.

Sometimes I think people just look to deep into things and make them complicated

as far as them all being united.

the sacrifice on the day of atonement was given for redemption or atonement of the sin of the people. Apart from it, there would be no forgiveness

The cross was the lamb of God. The one sacrifice for all time that paid for all time the atonement for the sin of all people. Apart from it there is no forgiveness,,

so in this the symbols (temple sacrifice) symbolized the fulfillment (Sacrifice of the lamb of God)

Circumcision actually represented 2 things -

separation.. The jews (circumcised) was seen as set apart. Or seperate from the gentile (uncircumcised

Cleanliness - The jew was considered clean, the gentile was considered filthy

as Paul explained in Col 2. The circumcision without hands is the fulfilment of these two types. As 1. The spiritually circumcised are set apart. From the lost. Of interest to note. The greek word hagios is the word which means to be set apart. It is translated Holy. So when a person is circumcised by God. They are said to be Holy. The person is also said to be cleansed. Which brings us to the third symbol, or baptism

In the OT, a priest was taken to the Jordan river, and washed. Now I think we can all agree, They did not take their clothes off and let people wash them, But it was more of a baptismal like ceremony, where in front of the people they were immersed in the water, and considered clean..

We also have the baptism of John, an christian baptism. All which represent being immersed and being cleansed.

Paul said again in col 2 the circumcision made without hands wa accomplished through the baptism of the one who rose him from the dead. Paul also says in Romans 6 that we were baptized into the death of christ. And into christ himself.This is where a person is baptised BY GOD into the cross. Where the atoning sacrifice, or blord of christ cleanses us from all sin. And how the spiritual circumcision of setting us apart (making us holy) and cleaninsf takes place

This is one of the great spiritual truths which so points people to christ. Where three seemingly unrelated things are related and all point ot the same spiritual truth

the atonement of Christ paid for the sin of mankind
the baptism of God into that atonment is was cleaned a person from all sin
and the circumcision done by God sets the person apart (makes him Holy) and cleanses him from all sin.

that is the state of a new child of God the moment he is saved. Or born again.

As Jesus said, he who believes is not condemned,, the reason why is because of the above, and so much more

the one who does not believe is condemned already, because they are still dead in their sin. Uncircumcised and filthy due ot the filth of sin.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Sometimes I think people just look to deep into things and make them complicated

as far as them all being united.

the sacrifice on the day of atonement was given for redemption or atonement of the sin of the people. Apart from it, there would be no forgiveness

The cross was the lamb of God. The one sacrifice for all time that paid for all time the atonement for the sin of all people. Apart from it there is no forgiveness,,

so in this the symbols (temple sacrifice) symbolized the fulfillment (Sacrifice of the lamb of God)

Circumcision actually represented 2 things -

separation.. The jews (circumcised) was seen as set apart. Or seperate from the gentile (uncircumcised

Cleanliness - The jew was considered clean, the gentile was considered filthy

as Paul explained in Col 2. The circumcision without hands is the fulfilment of these two types. As 1. The spiritually circumcised are set apart. From the lost. Of interest to note. The greek word hagios is the word which means to be set apart. It is translated Holy. So when a person is circumcised by God. They are said to be Holy. The person is also said to be cleansed. Which brings us to the third symbol, or baptism

In the OT, a priest was taken to the Jordan river, and washed. Now I think we can all agree, They did not take their clothes off and let people wash them, But it was more of a baptismal like ceremony, where in front of the people they were immersed in the water, and considered clean..

We also have the baptism of John, an christian baptism. All which represent being immersed and being cleansed.

Paul said again in col 2 the circumcision made without hands wa accomplished through the baptism of the one who rose him from the dead. Paul also says in Romans 6 that we were baptized into the death of christ. And into christ himself.This is where a person is baptised BY GOD into the cross. Where the atoning sacrifice, or blord of christ cleanses us from all sin. And how the spiritual circumcision of setting us apart (making us holy) and cleaninsf takes place

This is one of the great spiritual truths which so points people to christ. Where three seemingly unrelated things are related and all point ot the same spiritual truth

the atonement of Christ paid for the sin of mankind
the baptism of God into that atonment is was cleaned a person from all sin
and the circumcision done by God sets the person apart (makes him Holy) and cleanses him from all sin.

that is the state of a new child of God the moment he is saved. Or born again.

As Jesus said, he who believes is not condemned,, the reason why is because of the above, and so much more

the one who does not believe is condemned already, because they are still dead in their sin. Uncircumcised and filthy due ot the filth of sin.

I’m not disagreeing in symbolic or represents. To me Noah’s ark is done away with in Christ. To me, I no longer see it as Christ is like the symbol where He is going to shut the door having the goods necessary for those in need and He shuts up His bowels of compassion; instead He demonstrated the Love of God by becoming poor that they (held captive in sin) be made rich. That is all I was trying to share but it keeps circling back to the symbols. To prove the symbols and representations.

I don’t think I’m making it complicated but it is the same as your thread on Nicodemus being told of a natural birth and a spiritual birth. Putting the symbol as what it is; a symbol. A natural birth is symbolic or represents Spiritual birth of “you must be born again”. Yet Nicodemus asked “how can this be so?” All of what I shared with you was (Imo) the symbolic or represents of made with hands pointing to that which is made without hands. Why is it offensive to just say Noah’s ark was made with hands and the Ark of Christ is made without hands? Maybe because we point to Noah’s ark and call that made with hands as Christ. That is the same as pointing to the temple made with hands and calling it The Temple made without hands. One is what God’s builds up for His habitation; dwelling place. Again I think (Imo) it should be apparently clear in natural birth and you must be born again (anew)of God (a Spiritual birth) …although they are both births one lacks something necessary. Like I could give my whole body to be burned but if I have not charity (Christ), I am nothing. I can have all faith to move mountains, but if I have not charity(Christ), I am nothing. We don’t want to see Noah’s Ark lacked in that it was weak through the flesh… but that is just my opinion. We can circle back all day to “it’s a symbol” “it represents” yet the Ark made with hands compassion was shut up until He who was to come after where He demonstrated the compassion -mercy-long suffering- patience-and Love of God in some would scarcely die for a good man but He demonstrated the Love of God in He died for us while we were sinners. Huge difference from the ark made with hands and compassion shut up. Huge difference from the temple made with hands. Christ said My Father loves Me because I give My Life…I have the power to lay it down and take it up again (on your topic where Nicodemus asked how can this be so?) as Christ was about to go saying “I must go” “Nobody steals or robs My Life from Me but I give it Willingly”…way different than temples made with hands and also way different than Noah’s ark which only saves a few “good” …Christ demonstrates the Love of God in He came to save sinners. Stephen shouted “God does not dwell in temples made with hands” would we circle back and assert to Stephen “but brother Stephen, those temples made with hands represent Christ”? Why?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I’m not disagreeing in symbolic or represents. To me Noah’s ark is done away with in Christ. To me, I no longer see it as Christ is like the symbol where He is going to shut the door having the goods necessary for those in need and He shuts up His bowels of compassion; instead He demonstrated the Love of God by becoming poor that they (held captive in sin) be made rich. That is all I was trying to share but it keeps circling back to the symbols. To prove the symbols and representations.

I don’t think I’m making it complicated but it is the same as your thread on Nicodemus being told of a natural birth and a spiritual birth. Putting the symbol as what it is; a symbol. A natural birth is symbolic or represents Spiritual birth of “you must be born again”. Yet Nicodemus asked “how can this be so?” All of what I shared with you was (Imo) the symbolic or represents of made with hands pointing to that which is made without hands. Why is it offensive to just say Noah’s ark was made with hands and the Ark of Christ is made without hands? Maybe because we point to Noah’s ark and call that made with hands as Christ. That is the same as pointing to the temple made with hands and calling it The Temple made without hands. One is what God’s builds up for His habitation; dwelling place. Again I think (Imo) it should be apparently clear in natural birth and you must be born again (anew)of God (a Spiritual birth) …although they are both births one lacks something necessary. Like I could give my whole body to be burned but if I have not charity (Christ), I am nothing. I can have all faith to move mountains, but if I have not charity(Christ), I am nothing. We don’t want to see Noah’s Ark lacked in that it was weak through the flesh… but that is just my opinion. We can circle back all day to “it’s a symbol” “it represents” yet the Ark made with hands compassion was shut up until He who was to come after where He demonstrated the compassion -mercy-long suffering- patience-and Love of God in some would scarcely die for a good man but He demonstrated the Love of God in He died for us while we were sinners. Huge difference from the ark made with hands and compassion shut up. Huge difference from the temple made with hands. Christ said My Father loves Me because I give My Life…I have the power to lay it down and take it up again (on your topic where Nicodemus asked how can this be so?) as Christ was about to go saying “I must go” “Nobody steals or robs My Life from Me but I give it Willingly”…way different than temples made with hands and also way different than Noah’s ark which only saves a few “good” …Christ demonstrates the Love of God in He came to save sinners. Stephen shouted “God does not dwell in temple made with hands”

The issue is non of this is getting to the problem that exists between us and God. The battier between us is so great that it can not be broken. Only God can break it.

thats what the temple showed.. Thats what all the symbols show. Even the ark. Another great example.. We did not put ourselves in the ark. We were led into the ark. And then GOD shut us in. Once we were shut in “sealed” we can not get out. Nor would we want to get out. Because we have seen where we come from, and we know there was no hope.

The ark was not opened until it arrived at the spot it was supposed to go. Then God removed the seal.

That is what happens to us. The seal of the spirit. Which can not be broken until we arrive where God is taken us, The day of redemption.

No one has responded to what Jesus said after Nicodemus asked him how those things can be.

The serpent

The cross

The fact that they would NEVER DIE,

the fact that they HAVE ETERNAL LIFE

the fact that they ARE NOT CONDEMNED.

People love ot focus on the fact that they can seem to live more holy lives, but no one wants to talk about the one thing that seperates us, the penalty of sin.

That is what being born again is, the removal of what makes us dead. And the regeneration of our spirit because our sin debt is paid in full.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The issue is non of this is getting to the problem that exists between us and God. The battier between us is so great that it can not be broken. Only God can break it.

thats what the temple showed.. Thats what all the symbols show. Even the ark. Another great example.. We did not put ourselves in the ark. We were led into the ark. And then GOD shut us in. Once we were shut in “sealed” we can not get out. Nor would we want to get out. Because we have seen where we come from, and we know there was no hope.

The ark was not opened until it arrived at the spot it was supposed to go. Then God removed the seal.

That is what happens to us. The seal of the spirit. Which can not be broken until we arrive where God is taken us, The day of redemption.

No one has responded to what Jesus said after Nicodemus asked him how those things can be.

The serpent

The cross

The fact that they would NEVER DIE,

the fact that they HAVE ETERNAL LIFE

the fact that they ARE NOT CONDEMNED.

People love ot focus on the fact that they can seem to live more holy lives, but no one wants to talk about the one thing that seperates us, the penalty of sin.

That is what being born again is, the removal of what makes us dead. And the regeneration of our spirit because our sin debt is paid in full.

Ok still…when Stephen said “God does not dwell in temples made with hands” if all standing there wanted to dispute the temple made with hands as the symbol …which they did in stoning Stephen. to me it’s missing the point of that made without hands. The ark lacked one thing being shut up… they were shut up to the law until He who was to come after where it is no more of the law but of Faith in Christ. Being shut up always captive…being shut up in Noah and the ark made with hands is held captive yes … but Paul spoke of taken captive to and by Christ. Captive in and “shut up” in that made with hands is not the same as taken captive ”shut up” “sealed” by that made without hands in Christ.

captives of “that made with hands” “sealed” “shut up” in held captive unto… or Captive unto that “made without hands” “sealed” “shut up” …which captives do we desire to be. One is Liberty.

I get you disagree. I’m only sharing what it means to me. I never said or thought you would agree. I’ll forget this conversation in a week or two. But I won’t forget what it means to me because I can no longer look at Noah’s ark the same after Christ. This conversation won’t stay with me, but that concerning that made with hands and that made without hands… will.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Ok still…when Stephen said “God does not dwell in temples made with hands” if all standing there wanted to dispute the temple made with hands as the symbol …which they did in stoning Stephen. to me it’s missing the point of that made without hands. The ark lacked one thing being shut up… they were shut up to the law until He who was to come after where it is no more of the law but of Faith in Christ. Being shut up always captive…being shut up in Noah and the ark made with hands is held captive yes … but Paul spoke of taken captive to and by Christ. Captive in and “shut up” in that made with hands is not the same as taken captive ”shut up” “sealed” by that made without hands in Christ.

captives of “that made with hands” “sealed” “shut up” in held captive unto… or Captive unto that “made without hands” “sealed” “shut up” …which captives do we desire to be. One is Liberty.

I get you disagree. I’m only sharing what it means to me. I never said or thought you would agree. I’ll forget this conversation in a week or two. But I won’t forget what it means to me because I can no longer look at Noah’s ark the same after Christ. This conversation won’t stay with me, but that concerning that made with hands and that made without hands… will.

The fact you refuse to look at what seperates us from God. And what has to be done to restore us is sad.

I never hear any of you speak on that. You talk about religious things.. but you will not speak on the grace of God that frees us from the penalty of sin.

The wage of sin is death, Its bad enough we have adams sin which condemns us, Every sin we have ever, are, or will ever commit has a death penalty attached to it.

If people think they will stand in front of God on judgment day and say they deserve to be in heaven because they walked in Zion. Or they become holy, or because they healed people. Or did all these great works.

they have a rude awakening coming, because non of those things will pay the sin debt they owe God for every sin they have commited. And because of this, Jesus will say depart from me, for he never know them

because they were never born again. They remained in a condemned state, in spite of what they thought

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The fact you refuse to look at what seperates us from God. And what has to be done to restore us is sad.

I never hear any of you speak on that. You talk about religious things.. but you will not speak on the grace of God that frees us from the penalty of sin.

The wage of sin is death, Its bad enough we have adams sin which condemns us, Every sin we have ever, are, or will ever commit has a death penalty attached to it.

If people think they will stand in front of God on judgment day and say they deserve to be in heaven because they walked in Zion. Or they become holy, or because they healed people. Or did all these great works.

they have a rude awakening coming, because non of those things will pay the sin debt they owe God for every sin they have commited. And because of this, Jesus will say depart from me, for he never know them

because they were never born again. They remained in a condemned state, in spite of what they thought

With all due respect that is a prejudgment of how you have made it(what I was trying to say). I never said I’ve done anything to deserve being in heaven. You assume that is what I’m selling saying “I never hear any of you speak of the grace of God” …diverting from what I was trying to share by blame of that I’m trying to say I can be good enough by works of the flesh. In fact I meant the opposite going on and on about what lacked (or lacks) and Christ where the Spirit of God does and did dwell.

You’re hearing instead what you want to and discard as already knowing I’m trying to convince you one can be good enough by circumcision of male body parts. (Encompassing all the works of the flesh). I didn’t say that. If you knew me personally you would say I’m a mess. If any thing… I was trying to share that made with hands is NOT what saves but instead Faith in Christ. So I don’t understand how you could take all of it and claim (paraphrasing) that no …i only speak of that made with hands and you never hear any of us speak of that made without hands or the Grace of God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

With all due respect that is a prejudgment of how you have made it(what I was trying to say). I never said I’ve done anything to deserve being in heaven. You assume that is what I’m selling saying “I never hear any of you speak of the grace of God” …diverting from what I was trying to share by blame of that I’m trying to say I can be good enough by works of the flesh. In fact I meant the opposite going on and on about what lacked (or lacks) and Christ where the Spirit of God does and did dwell.

You’re hearing instead what you want to and discard as already knowing I’m trying to convince you one can be good enough by circumcision of male body parts. (Encompassing all the works of the flesh). I didn’t say that. If you knew me personally you would say I’m a mess. If any thing… I was trying to share that made with hands is NOT what saves but instead Faith in Christ. So I don’t understand how you could take all of it and claim (paraphrasing) that no …i only speak of that made with hands and you never hear any of us speak of that made without hands or the Grace of God.

This thread is about how to be born again, And what Jesus said about it

if you do not want to talk about it I guess that is fine.. But I just judge what I see..

Non of you have discussed anything past what Nicodemus asked, when he said how can these things be.

that is th e most important part of the passage.

Yet crickets.

Once again, Jesus said you MUST be born again, it is not an option

and he said whoever is born again, will never die

his demand that one must be born again is just as perfect as his promise that whoever is born again will never perish

 

[VictoryinJesus]

This thread is about how to be born again, And what Jesus said about it

if you do not want to talk about it I guess that is fine.. But I just judge what I see..

Non of you have discussed anything past what Nicodemus asked, when he said how can these things be.

that is th e most important part of the passage.

Yet crickets.

Once again, Jesus said you MUST be born again, it is not an option

and he said whoever is born again, will never die

his demand that one must be born again is just as perfect as his promise that whoever is born again will never perish

I thought I did answer and stay on topic. Looking back I agree with you that I danced around it but didn’t stay on topic or answer. Replying so you want assume …crickets. I don’t know why Nicodemus said “how can these things be so.” And I don’t know why Moses was told to lift up the serpent and in the same way the son of man has to be lifted up. I’m asking to understand but it’s not clear to me. Same as the passage on hating mother, sister, daughter. I still ask “what?” it’s not clear to me. But that still doesn’t mean I’m promoting being good enough to go to heaven. It just means I have much more to learn about God’s character.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I thought I did answer and stay on topic. Looking back I agree with you that I danced around it but didn’t stay on topic or answer. Replying so you want assume …crickets. I don’t know why Nicodemus said “how can these things be so.” And I don’t know why Moses was told to lift up the serpent and in the same way the son of man has to be lifted up. I’m asking to understand but it’s not clear to me. Same as the passage on hating mother, sister, daughter. I still ask “what?” it’s not clear to me. But that still doesn’t mean I’m promoting being good enough to go to heaven. It just means I have much more to learn about God’s character.

As for Moses lifting the serpent? Did you read the passage? it says so that whoever looks will live (be saved) or more importantly, they will nto die. is that not the purpose of it?

As for Christ to be lifted up? Again does it not say pretty much that whoever looks will be saved? (in literal words. will not die or perish) is that not what it means to be born again? to have eternal life (the promise was not concerning physical life. we were not promised we would never die physically, but spiritually. the new birth)

As for Hating mother daughter sister.. Does this have anything to do with being born again? Or living the spirit filled life? On bearing fruit. On being used by God. on receiving reward?

I agree, there are alot of things hard to understand.

but some things are right there. we just have to grab on to them. and as Jesus said in John 6. gnaw and chew on them (the words given by the spirit), to make sure we get it right. because just like being born again is demanded. So to is interpreting the truth on how one is born again and what it is

 

[VictoryinJesus]

As for Hating mother daughter sister.. Does this have anything to do with being born again? Or living the spirit filled life? On bearing fruit. On being used by God. on receiving reward?

Forget I mentioned hating mother, daughter, sister. I never meant to imply it is connected to the passage your thread is about. The only reason I brought it up was as an example how I may read a passage over and over and think it is one way and then later …it makes absolutely no sense and I realize it makes no sense to me. I’m like “that is out there” and way beyond…

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Forget I mentioned hating mother, daughter, sister. I never meant to imply it is connected to the passage your thread is about. The only reason I brought it up was as an example how I may read a passage over and over and think it is one way and then later …it makes absolutely no sense and I realize it makes no sense to me. I’m like “that is out there” and way beyond…

I figured that, I was just trying to explain how it is different as I see it.

Did you know the word Hate does not always mean hate??

 

[VictoryinJesus]

As for Moses lifting the serpent? Did you read the passage? it says so that whoever looks will live (be saved) or more importantly, they will nto die. is that not the purpose of it?

Revisiting “how can these things be so?” To me the whole of what He tells Nicodemus is that a man’s pride and forgetting God and by whose hand man is led out of bondage …a man’s pride lifted up …is to be brought down. Consider “you filthy sinners, be heavy and mourn; humble yourself in the sight of God and Christ will lift you up.”

Also it was prophesied of Jesus Christ that He would be a sign spoken against. A sword that enters the heart of man so that every heart would be made manifest. And that many in Israel would fall and rise again. To me “born again from above” is to be brought low…as John said “I must decrease” that “He increase”…that born again is not haughtiness or boasting in saying a little prayer or convincing yourself of your own lies…but born of and from above is “humility”… to descend to take the lower seat before Him (Christ) who has been given all power to lift up again what has come down; He who has the right to say “come up higher”.


Except a man be born again he can not see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus asked “How can these things be?”
Elsewhere we are told the carnal man can not see the kingdom of God because they are foolishness to him. (To me this means a carnal man can not see his brothers for to him having brothers is foolishness. Others needs are foolishness to him.) (some may say that is works of the flesh…life teaches us some do not see or notice your affliction and because they don’t see or become aware; they are not going to communicate anything towards your need.) (it’s not works…it’s what comes out from the heart which God changes the heart and if that is disputable …look at Saul who dragged those seeking after Christ to be judged and imprisoned saying “I persecuted the way. Yet the one who persecuted the way …has now become one who preaches what way he once persecuted. Is that teaching “works” or simply a heart changed …a new heart given by God?)

Except a man be born of water and of Spirit. He cannot enter the Kingdom of God. —this reminds me of Paul. Philippians 4:11-20 Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. [12] I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. [13] I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me. [14] Notwithstanding you have well done, that you did communicate with my affliction. [15] Now you Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but you only. [16] For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. [17] Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit (of the Kingdom of God) that may abound to your account. [18] But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God. [19] But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus. [20] Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

You may say …no no that has nothing to do with “born of water” and “of the Spirit” …but to me it’s the closest I can find to helping with “I’m am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.” Notice by suffering need and hunger that they bear fruit …the kingdom of God is seen in “My God will supply all your needs.” Paul praises God for His supply saying “I am full, having received …the sweet odour of Christ… the sacrifice well pleasing to God” … “the riches of the glory of God”

You may still continue to say it does not connect but all of what Jesus Christ is speaking to Nicodemus of you must born anew of hunger and need and abounding and full is …instruction to be both “abased” and “abounding”. John who baptized with water spoke of the same “abased” and abounding” in “I must decrease” and “Him increase.”

Deuteronomy 8:9-20 speaks also of the “serpent lifted up” but the whole of those verses is…they’re boasting that their own hand has done these things and they have forgotten God. Near the end of that passage it speaks of a testimony against them that they have forgotten their God. To me that is why God told them to lift up a bronze serpent in the wilderness where he said if you forget Me, I will leave you in your sin. How many times did Jesus Christ warn the Pharisees “you will die in your sins” but also He called them the “serpent” that bites. OT a viper …NT He points out “Vipers” among you. It also speaks of “enemies of the cross” …is the cross a testimony that you will die in your sins in forgetting by whom you are delivered out of the house of bondage. And the cross is a remembrance to those who are reminded by whose hand they are delivered out from the house of bondage.

Nicodemus asks “How can those things be so”
Christ asked him “are you not a master of Israel? How do you not know those things?”

Christ helps Nicodemus by explaining all those born of the Spirit…are like the wind that blows …you hear the sound of it…as He said “have their words not gone out” “have they not heard” “yea their words have gone out to all ends of the earth” …the words like the wind…you hear it but you don’t know from where it comes and where it goes; does this not help Nicodemus? “How is it you are a master of Israel yet you do not know these things?” The things you hear me saying how is it you still question from where it comes from and to where it goes? Are you not a master of Israel yet upon hearing the words I speak to you, you ask, “how can these things be so”?

As far as the serpent lifted up …man’s pride is lifted up too. From Deuteronomy 8:9-20, it speaks of man’s pride lifted up …the bronze serpent lifted up in the wilderness by Moses. Christ told them they are “serpents” “vipers”
^BUT as the above was lifted up in the wilderness of Moses.
Likewise the son of man shall be lifted up … as we were tempted in all accounts he was tempted as we were…yet He overcomes sin. Being the Son of God. In whom God is well-pleased because Having the power to lay He life down and take it up again…He was (being weak in the flesh) became obedient (the power of the Spirit of God which is willing) … even unto death of the cross; God demonstrated His love for us even while we were yet dead in sin.

born from above to me is humility not false humility but God given humility that “comes down from above” or “to bow low” in the Sight of God. All things in subjection to Christ who has been given the power to lift up, Raise again that which God has brought down from above.
Proverbs 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Proverbs 29:23-25 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit. [24] Whoso is partner with a thief hates his own soul: he hears cursing, and bewrayeth it not. [25] The fear of man brings a snare: but whoso puts his trust in the LORD shall be safe.

Isaiah 2:17 And the haughtiness of man shall be humbled, and the lofty pride of men shall be brought low, and the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.

All throughout …to me “born from above” is the haughtiness of man humbled and the lofty pride of men brought low. -as John said “I must decrease” “He must increase” and the LORD alone will be exalted in that day. Proverbs also speak of let the rich man praise in that he is brought low (warned rich in the world but not rich towards God) let the rich man rejoice in being brought low, and let the poor rejoice in that he is lifted up.

As Paul’s (inspired by the Spirit of God) well-quoted verse: I can do all things through Christ who gives me strength. Whether “abased” or “abounding” in both “water” and “of the Spirit” …put your Trust in Him.