Will Trump seek asylum in Israel and Build the 3rd Temple?

[Freedm]

Maybe I'm not explaining well enough, so I will try again.

The spirit or breath of life we receive from God is given eternal life that can never die when we are born again. But our flesh is still mortal, and corruptible. Since neither flesh and blood nor corruption can inherit the Kingdom of God only our physical flesh needs to be resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible.

Our spirit or breath of life is already ETERNAL and needs only an immortal & incorruptible body of flesh to be whole again. Our spirit does not itself become immortal & incorruptible but the body our spirit indwells does.

When in physical death our spirit leaves our body, as a spiritual body it ascends to heaven ALIVE. There are verses that indicate that in heaven we sing praises and worship the Lord, so no I do not believe the spiritual body has no consciousness. Else why would Christ say that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall never die?


Whatever you believe the new heaven and earth symbolize of old, I believe the new comes down from heaven after the first heaven and earth passes away. The holy city new Jerusalem is the Church as it exists in heaven that is prepared as a bride (Church) adorned for her husband.


The Scripture tells us we shall have both eternal life as well as immortal life in the age to come. Since our body will be immortal and incorruptible I cannot fathom them not being physical, as humankind was in the beginning when God created man. Just as in the beginning the earth was created for humans to dwell, so too the new earth will be made new again for humans with spirit + body = living souls (humankind) will one day dwell with Christ physically forever.

o.k. I think I understand you better now. You believe that we need our old physical body to be revived in order to live on the physical earth, and primarily this makes sense to you because God created us as physical beings in the first place. Yet at the same time, you believe that we are alive in heaven while we wait for the physical bodies to be re-animated. (which means we don't actually die, which in my mind also means we don't need to be "resurrected", but let's put that aside for now)

Although I still see obvious flaws in your logic, at least I now have a sense of your logic, beyond simply "this is what I believe because I've always believe it", but since you said that a physical ultimate reward makes sense to you, let me counter your logic with this:

As you know, the old testament is full of types, that were eventually replaced by better, spiritual versions of themselves.

• Noah's ark was a physical saviour, foreshadowing Christ, our spiritual saviour.
• The old Jerusalem was a physical city, foreshadowing the body of Christ as the new spiritual Jerusalem.
• Israel, the nation of God, was a physical type, foreshadowing the spiritual "Israel of God", of which all believers are citizens.
• The temple sacrifices were foreshadowing the ultimate sacrifice of Christ.
• The temple building itself, which was the physical connection between heaven and earth, was replaced by Jesus Christ, our new spiritual connection to heaven and earth.

All of these are examples of the old physical, being replaced by better spiritual versions of themselves. So by that logic I submit to you that these old physical bodies are not to be re-animated by joining with the spiritual, as you believe, but rather they are to be replaced by spiritual bodies, just as all the other old testament types which were flawed, mortal, corruptible and physical were replaced by perfect, immortal, incorruptible and spiritual final products.

 

[rwb]

o.k. I think I understand you better now. You believe that we need our old physical body to be revived in order to live on the physical earth, and primarily this makes sense to you because God created us as physical beings in the first place. Yet at the same time, you believe that we are alive in heaven while we wait for the physical bodies to be re-animated. (which means we don't actually die, which in my mind also means we don't need to be "resurrected", but let's put that aside for now)

Although I still see obvious flaws in your logic, at least I now have a sense of your logic, beyond simply "this is what I believe because I've always believe it", but since you said that a physical ultimate reward makes sense to you, let me counter your logic with this:

As you know, the old testament is full of types, that were eventually replaced by better, spiritual versions of themselves.

• Noah's ark was a physical saviour, foreshadowing Christ, our spiritual saviour.
• The old Jerusalem was a physical city, foreshadowing the body of Christ as the new spiritual Jerusalem.
• Israel, the nation of God, was a physical type, foreshadowing the spiritual "Israel of God", of which all believers are citizens.
• The temple sacrifices were foreshadowing the ultimate sacrifice of Christ.
• The temple building itself, which was the physical connection between heaven and earth, was replaced by Jesus Christ, our new spiritual connection to heaven and earth.

All of these are examples of the old physical, being replaced by better spiritual versions of themselves. So by that logic I submit to you that these old physical bodies are not to be re-animated by joining with the spiritual, as you believe, but rather they are to be replaced by spiritual bodies, just as all the other old testament types which were flawed, mortal, corruptible and physical were replaced by perfect, immortal, incorruptible and spiritual final products.

Can you define what you mean by being replaced by a spiritual body? What does or will that body consist/look like? Why would a spiritual body need to inherit a physical, though perfect new earth?

I don't believe Scripture teaches that our body shall be replaced by a spiritual body. I believe Paul shows us what becomes of our eternal spirit when our body becomes a lifeless corpse. Our body returns to the earth, and as spiritual body we ascend to heaven when our body is dead.

Since Christ was risen from the dead, He became the firstfruits of them that had already died. How is Christ the firstfruits of the DEAD? They have not risen physically to never die again? What can the dead know, unless, like Him, they too have been raised a spiritual body to heaven?

1 Corinthians 15:19-20 (KJV) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Paul tells us there is an order for being made alive in Christ. Paul has already said Christ became the firstfruits of those who had already died in Him. Now he says every man in his/her own order. The firstfruits which is Christ and spiritually those who had already died, and have spiritually ascended to heaven with Him. Now, since His death and resurrection He is spiritually the firstfruits of all who are made spiritually alive in Him. "But every man in his own order." IOW Christ became not only the firstfruits for those who shall be physically resurrected to immortality, but is also spiritually the firstfruits of the Spirit. When we are born again through His Spirit in us, we belong spiritually, in this life, to Christ the firstfruits of the Spirit. We are not all spiritually born again in Christ at the same time, but during this Gospel age after we are physically born and we are spiritually born again as we hear the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit and believe. Then at the end Christ, the firstfruits shall resurrect our physical body at His coming in the end when the Kingdom of God shall be delivered to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Paul shows us how the dead are both spiritually raised and physically raised up. Paul says there is a difference in being spiritually raised up and physically resurrected. Because man is endowed with both spirit and body. Paul shows us the body the dead will come with to both heaven and then to the new earth.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

The body that dies is not the body that shall be raised up. It is, like a grain of corn only part of what the body shall be. God through His Spirit gives us the body that pleases Him via seed of His own body. So like the angels of God in heaven, all who die in Christ become a celestial body. Sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body because the two are not the same body. That which is spiritual is as the heavenly and bear the image of the heavenly

1 Corinthians 15:37-38 (KJV) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:40 (KJV) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

When our physical body is resurrected when the last trump sounds it raised with immortal and incorruptible life. But before our physical resurrection, our spirit ascends to heaven a spiritual body of believers to wait for the physical resurrection in an hour coming on the last day. Our physical body, like our eternal spirit must become immortal and incorruptible because flesh and blood nor corruption can inherit the Kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (KJV) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46-50 (KJV) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[Freedm]

Can you define what you mean by being replaced by a spiritual body? What does or will that body consist/look like? Why would a spiritual body need to inherit a physical, though perfect new earth?

I don't believe Scripture teaches that our body shall be replaced by a spiritual body. I believe Paul shows us what becomes of our eternal spirit when our body becomes a lifeless corpse. Our body returns to the earth, and as spiritual body we ascend to heaven when our body is dead.

Since Christ was risen from the dead, He became the firstfruits of them that had already died. How is Christ the firstfruits of the DEAD? They have not risen physically to never die again? What can the dead know, unless, like Him, they too have been raised a spiritual body to heaven?

1 Corinthians 15:19-20 (KJV) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Paul tells us there is an order for being made alive in Christ. Paul has already said Christ became the firstfruits of those who had already died in Him. Now he says every man in his/her own order. The firstfruits which is Christ and spiritually those who had already died, and have spiritually ascended to heaven with Him. Now, since His death and resurrection He is spiritually the firstfruits of all who are made spiritually alive in Him. "But every man in his own order." IOW Christ became not only the firstfruits for those who shall be physically resurrected to immortality, but is also spiritually the firstfruits of the Spirit. When we are born again through His Spirit in us, we belong spiritually, in this life, to Christ the firstfruits of the Spirit. We are not all spiritually born again in Christ at the same time, but during this Gospel age after we are physically born and we are spiritually born again as we hear the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit and believe. Then at the end Christ, the firstfruits shall resurrect our physical body at His coming in the end when the Kingdom of God shall be delivered to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Paul shows us how the dead are both spiritually raised and physically raised up. Paul says there is a difference in being spiritually raised up and physically resurrected. Because man is endowed with both spirit and body. Paul shows us the body the dead will come with to both heaven and then to the new earth.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

The body that dies is not the body that shall be raised up. It is, like a grain of corn only part of what the body shall be. God through His Spirit gives us the body that pleases Him via seed of His own body. So like the angels of God in heaven, all who die in Christ become a celestial body. Sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body because the two are not the same body. That which is spiritual is as the heavenly and bear the image of the heavenly

1 Corinthians 15:37-38 (KJV) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:40 (KJV) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

When our physical body is resurrected when the last trump sounds it raised with immortal and incorruptible life. But before our physical resurrection, our spirit ascends to heaven a spiritual body of believers to wait for the physical resurrection in an hour coming on the last day. Our physical body, like our eternal spirit must become immortal and incorruptible because flesh and blood nor corruption can inherit the Kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (KJV) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46-50 (KJV) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

It's so weird to see that all your scriptural quotes support my position, but you think they somehow support your position.

Paul is clearly saying that our physical body is not resurrected. You even quoted it. "It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body". That's what I've been saying. The natural body is not our resurrection body. Instead we will inherit a spiritual body that is our eternal body. How can you not see what Paul is saying and what I see so clearly? When we become spirits (ie. we are raised in our new spiritual bodies), we have our inheritance. That's the grand prize!

 

[Freedm]

Can you define what you mean by being replaced by a spiritual body? What does or will that body consist/look like? Why would a spiritual body need to inherit a physical, though perfect new earth?

I don't believe Scripture teaches that our body shall be replaced by a spiritual body. I believe Paul shows us what becomes of our eternal spirit when our body becomes a lifeless corpse. Our body returns to the earth, and as spiritual body we ascend to heaven when our body is dead.

Since Christ was risen from the dead, He became the firstfruits of them that had already died. How is Christ the firstfruits of the DEAD? They have not risen physically to never die again? What can the dead know, unless, like Him, they too have been raised a spiritual body to heaven?

1 Corinthians 15:19-20 (KJV) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Paul tells us there is an order for being made alive in Christ. Paul has already said Christ became the firstfruits of those who had already died in Him. Now he says every man in his/her own order. The firstfruits which is Christ and spiritually those who had already died, and have spiritually ascended to heaven with Him. Now, since His death and resurrection He is spiritually the firstfruits of all who are made spiritually alive in Him. "But every man in his own order." IOW Christ became not only the firstfruits for those who shall be physically resurrected to immortality, but is also spiritually the firstfruits of the Spirit. When we are born again through His Spirit in us, we belong spiritually, in this life, to Christ the firstfruits of the Spirit. We are not all spiritually born again in Christ at the same time, but during this Gospel age after we are physically born and we are spiritually born again as we hear the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit and believe. Then at the end Christ, the firstfruits shall resurrect our physical body at His coming in the end when the Kingdom of God shall be delivered to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Paul shows us how the dead are both spiritually raised and physically raised up. Paul says there is a difference in being spiritually raised up and physically resurrected. Because man is endowed with both spirit and body. Paul shows us the body the dead will come with to both heaven and then to the new earth.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

The body that dies is not the body that shall be raised up. It is, like a grain of corn only part of what the body shall be. God through His Spirit gives us the body that pleases Him via seed of His own body. So like the angels of God in heaven, all who die in Christ become a celestial body. Sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body because the two are not the same body. That which is spiritual is as the heavenly and bear the image of the heavenly

1 Corinthians 15:37-38 (KJV) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:40 (KJV) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

When our physical body is resurrected when the last trump sounds it raised with immortal and incorruptible life. But before our physical resurrection, our spirit ascends to heaven a spiritual body of believers to wait for the physical resurrection in an hour coming on the last day. Our physical body, like our eternal spirit must become immortal and incorruptible because flesh and blood nor corruption can inherit the Kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 (KJV) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46-50 (KJV) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

And you did not address my point, that all the physical types of the old testament are replaced by spiritual types in the new. So why then would our old physical bodies not be replaced by spiritual bodies? It makes so much sense.

 

[rwb]

It's so weird to see that all your scriptural quotes support my position, but you think they somehow support your position.

Paul is clearly saying that our physical body is not resurrected. You even quoted it. "It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body". That's what I've been saying. The natural body is not our resurrection body. Instead we will inherit a spiritual body that is our eternal body. How can you not see what Paul is saying and what I see so clearly? When we become spirits (ie. we are raised in our new spiritual bodies), we have our inheritance. That's the grand prize!

But we are not raised a spiritual body when our physical body is resurrected. We are raised a spiritual body when our physical body dies. The natural/physical body returns to the dust it came from, and when it is resurrected, when the last trump sounds it will not be the same as it was sown because it will be immortal & incorruptible. You can't explain what a spiritual body is or means because spirit is not material, it is our breath of life that gives life to our physical body. When our body is resurrected and changed it will be a physical, but immortal & incorruptible body made alive through our eternal spirit that returns with Christ. Since we shall inherit the new earth, we know the body we will have will be physical but never die, or grow sick or old. On the new earth we will be once again as humans were when God created mankind to inhabit this earth. We will have an eternal spirit + immortal & incorruptible body and together we shall again be a complete living soul, fit to inherit the new earth, which shall be where physical beings dwell, not spirit beings.

 

[rwb]

And you did not address my point, that all the physical types of the old testament are replaced by spiritual types in the new. So why then would our old physical bodies not be replaced by spiritual bodies? It makes so much sense.

Yes, I did answer, but you don't understand. Our physical body is not replaced by a spiritual body. We are raised a spiritual body when our body dies. We access eternal spiritual life before we physically die when we are born again. That's why when our body dies we ascend to heaven a spiritual body of believers where we will remain until the last trumpet sounds. A spirit has no body.

Luke 24:39 (KJV) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

 

[Freedm]

Yes, I did answer, but you don't understand. Our physical body is not replaced by a spiritual body. We are raised a spiritual body when our body dies. We access eternal spiritual life before we physically die when we are born again. That's why when our body dies we ascend to heaven a spiritual body of believers where we will remain until the last trumpet sounds. A spirit has no body.

Luke 24:39 (KJV) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

I agree that we are raised a spiritual body when our body dies, which is what I've been arguing all along, and which is what Paul told us 1 Corinthians 15. However, Paul never said that our spirit will be rejoined with our body, nor have you provided any evidence to support that theory.

You need to provide evidence for your theory, specifically the theory that the spirit rejoins the body at some point. I've seen lots of evidence of resurrections, I've seen lots of evidence of the "spirit" returning to God, and I've seen lots of evidence that we live eternally after death, but never have I seen any evidence that our spirits return to our bodies.

 

[rwb]

I agree that we are raised a spiritual body when our body dies, which is what I've been arguing all along, and which is what Paul told us 1 Corinthians 15. However, Paul never said that our spirit will be rejoined with our body, nor have you provided any evidence to support that theory.

You need to provide evidence for your theory, specifically the theory that the spirit rejoins the body at some point. I've seen lots of evidence of resurrections, I've seen lots of evidence of the "spirit" returning to God, and I've seen lots of evidence that we live eternally after death, but never have I seen any evidence that our spirits return to our bodies.

God breathed the breath of life (spirit) into Adam & Eve. If He had not, there would have been no life in them. The spirit breathed into them came from God. The breath of life that God breathed into Adam & Eve is spirit that gave life to their body.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

the breath of life - נְשָׁמָה nᵉshâmâh חַי chay

nᵉshâmâh means intellect, divine inspiration, soul spirit AND chay means to be alive - Wherever there is life there is a living soul. Whether living spirit soul or living human soul makes no difference! For when there is life there is a livig soul. In heaven the living soul is spiritual body, and on earth a physical body with the breath of life (spirit) is a physical soul. Without the spirit (breath of life) our body becomes a corpse, but our spirit will return to God either a living soul or in darkness and silence that comes by physical death.

How will our resurrected immortal body have physical life without the spirit from God breathed into them, kept alive through God the Spirit? Adam and Eve were created immortal & incorruptible, just as our resurrected body shall be. Having immortal body at creation did not give their body life. They had to have spirit that came from God to be living souls. What would be any different when our physical body is resurrected again? How will our body have life without God bringing with Him our eternal spirit alive through the Holy Spirit? Scripture says those who have died in Jesus will return with Him. It is our spirit ALIVE that returns with Christ. Why would God bring our spirit with Christ if it is not to give physical life to our physical body?

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Flesh without spirit is not alive and is of no profit being dead. It is spirit that gives life to our mortal body, and our eternal spirit shall also give life to our immortal body that shall come.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

2 Corinthians 3:6 (KJV) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Without a spirit there can be no life. That's why when man dies without the Spirit of God in them, giving them eternal life, unsaved man is said to go to a place of darkness and silence. But those who physically die with the Holy Spirit in them return to God ALIVE as living soul, a spiritual body of believers.

Our physical resurrected body shall never become a spiritual body! Believers become a spiritual body in heaven when the spirit in us returns to God alive through the Holy Spirit AFTER our physical body has died. That's why John, in Rev 20 is given to understand that death has no power over those who live and die in Christ. Because death cannot prevent believers from being a spiritual body of believers in heaven after our body becomes a corpse.

 

[Timtofly]

but rather they are to be replaced by spiritual bodies.

A body is still physical. You are trying to say the physical stops existence. The physical does not stop. That is why the soul has both a body and spirit. The spirit does not replace the body. The body is not replaced by a spiritual spirit. You still use the term body.

So you are just saying we will have a spiritual physical body, instead of a carnal physical body. This spiritual body is still not of spirit. Our spirit is still another part besides this spiritual body.

All you indicate is we will have a spiritual soul, not a carnal soul. A spiritual body, not a carnal body. A spiritual spirit, not a demonic or reprobate spirit.

We will still be an eternal soul, in a permanent incorruptible physical body, then with a robe of white over that body which is our spirit. Jesus pointed out that robe of white on the mount of Transfiguration, when His whole body was covered in a bright light like the sun.

"And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

"Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father."

"And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light."

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

"Killed" meaning they were no longer in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

At the 5th Seal, the church was glorified, and told to wait until the final harvest out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh was completed. Many would still be redeemed, but the majority cast into the LOF.

We can see from these verses even the spirit has a physical manifestion as a bright light. The sun and stars are considered to have physical bodies, but they give off a physical light which still has the physical properties of tiny particles, that is the light produced. Such is the spirit when placed over the body. There is not one or the other. Nor is there some hybrid combination of spirit/body. The soul has both a body and what produces that bright light, a spirit.

On the mount of Transfiguration, Jesus showed Peter, James, and John what having on that robe of white meant. They saw how the spirit was on over the physical body, and there was a physical light produced just like the stars shine bright. Not only is the spirit compared to air, but the entire makeup of the firmament which includes what we call light.

The term Paul used as "spiritual body" does not replace the body and spirit with some hybrid. The soul still puts on a body, and still puts on the spirit as a robe of white. That is the image of God humankind was created in. At least until Adam disobeyed and was placed in a physical body of death, and separated from his spirit. Adam then passed down death to Seth, and only Noah and his 3 sons in bodies of death populated the earth after the Flood. When God was made flesh, and came to earth as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, the physical was again allowed to be experienced, and Abraham's bosom of souls was resurrected back into the physical body of a son of God. They wait in Paradise until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. At the Second Coming, the restoration is complete when the spirit is returned, as indicated by John, the putting on of white robes, and Paul, death puts on life, and death no longer divides us from our spirit.

Those in Paradise since the Cross, have already experienced physical restoration. They left Adam's temporal corruptible physical body in the dust, and put on God's permanent incorruptible physical body to experience all the physical aspects of Paradise. Waiving palm branches. Serving God day and night in the heavenly temple. Seated in heavenly places. Perhaps even ruling and reigning over the affais of humanity still on earth?

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Paul was not indicating they were wicked and disobedient, going against God's nature. He was explaining what was going on in Paradise was not to be revealed at that point. John would reveal more, than Paul was allowed, in the book of Revelation. But Paradise was not some future experience. Paradise was being experienced since the day on the Cross, the one thief went to Paradise.

 

[ewq1938]

I agree that we are raised a spiritual body when our body dies, which is what I've been arguing all along, and which is what Paul told us 1 Corinthians 15. However, Paul never said that our spirit will be rejoined with our body, nor have you provided any evidence to support that theory.

You need to provide evidence for your theory, specifically the theory that the spirit rejoins the body at some point. I've seen lots of evidence of resurrections, I've seen lots of evidence of the "spirit" returning to God, and I've seen lots of evidence that we live eternally after death, but never have I seen any evidence that our spirits return to our bodies.

That's because the saved receive new bodies which are in heaven. They don't return to their old bodies.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

 

[Freedm]

God breathed the breath of life (spirit) into Adam & Eve. If He had not, there would have been no life in them. The spirit breathed into them came from God. The breath of life that God breathed into Adam & Eve is spirit that gave life to their body.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

You are equating spirit and breath. I think the word used in Genesis 2:7 can mean either spirit or breath. You think the word means both at the same time. That's where our logics diverge.

Why would God bring our spirit with Christ if it is not to give physical life to our physical body?

This question is not very compelling at all. I don't think bringing believers back with Christ implies that the bodies will be resurrected. I just don't see that logic at all.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

2 Corinthians 3:6 (KJV) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

When I read these verses I believe that the references to "spirit" here are references to the holy spirit, which is God. That's the spirit that gives life.

 

[Freedm]

A body is still physical. You are trying to say the physical stops existence. The physical does not stop. That is why the soul has both a body and spirit. The spirit does not replace the body. The body is not replaced by a spiritual spirit. You still use the term body.

You say a body is still physical, but Paul said there are two kinds of bodies. A physical body and a spiritual body.

You say the physical does not stop, but God said to dust you will return.

You say that is why the soul has both a body and spirit, but you're not providing any evidence of that, so why should I believe you?

You say the spirit does not replace the body, but on what are you basing that? How do you know I'm not right?

 

[Freedm]

On the mount of Transfiguration, Jesus showed Peter, James, and John what having on that robe of white meant. They saw how the spirit was on over the physical body,

You say the spirit was "on over the physical body", but the Bible doesn't say that. That's your way of explaining what happened, but if the Bible doesn't actually say that, then you can't be sure.

And besides, why do we call it the "transfiguration" if he, as you say, he was merely robed?

 

[Freedm]

That's because the saved receive new bodies which are in heaven. They don't return to their old bodies.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

Ah, so we agree. I thought you believed that these physical bodies would be resurrected. Did I misunderstand you all along?

 

[ewq1938]

Ah, so we agree. I thought you believed that these physical bodies would be resurrected. Did I misunderstand you all along?

Looks like it.

The bodies of the unsaved will be resurrected back to mortality so they can die a second time, the second death of Rev 20.

 

[rwb]

You are equating spirit and breath. I think the word used in Genesis 2:7 can mean either spirit or breath. You think the word means both at the same time. That's where our logics diverge.

I gave you the definition for 'breath of life'. It doesn't matter what you think, the definition shows a living spirit is a living soul. The spirit in man is our intellect which animates every living creature upon the earth. Without spirit in our body of flesh we have no ability to breathe, to think, or for our body to function as our spirit (brain power) instructs every organ to work as blood circulates through our internal system. Before God gave Adam & Eve the breath of life (spirit/soul) the body lay a lifeless corpse. And that is what becomes of our physical body when it breathes its last, because the spirit God gave the body returns to Him when our body dies.

Paul says nothing about having a new physical body resurrected from the dead. He simply says the body resurrected, that is the body that died, shall be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. When he speaks of the bodily resurrection when the last trumpet sounds he says nothing about it becoming a spiritual body. For the physical body to be resurrected a spiritual body would mean it will no longer be physical because a spiritual body has no material substance but is as the angels of God in heaven, and in fact all who dwell in heaven, who are celestial beings, not HUMAN beings.

Christ says the same thing Paul does. That is that when the body is dead, our spirit (breath of life; mind, will, emotions) returns to God in heaven alive a spiritual body/living soul. Where we shall be as the angels in heaven, without physical substance, because God is not God of the dead, but of the living. Now, since the first advent of Christ Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are spiritually alive in heaven a spiritual body of believers there.

Mark 12:24-27 (KJV) And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

But, according to Paul the body that is sown is not the body that shall be. Because the spirit leaves that body to return to God, and becomes in heaven a spiritual body of believers there. That is a celestial body, like the angels of God in heaven. THEN when the last trumpet sounds the physical body that was dead and buried is physically resurrected but changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. That body will once again be a complete living soul, because the spiritual body man became after physical death will give the resurrected physical body life again. Otherwise the physical body resurrected shall remain a corpse without any life at all. Because God shows us in the beginning that for mankind to be alive they must be endowed with physical body plus spirit to be a physical living soul upon the earth. And a physical earth made new again is where mankind is destined to live in the age that is to come.

Paul says "But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?" That's when Paul tells us exactly what Christ has. Which is that which is raised up when our natural body dies is not a physical body but is a spiritual body or living spirit souls. Then when the last trump sounds our physical body too shall be resurrected to immortality and incorruption.

Our physical, material body dies and ascends to heaven a spiritual or immaterial body like the angels of God in heaven. Our natural body resurrected shall be of immortal & incorruptible flesh with immaterial spirit that returns with Christ to give life function to the natural/material/physical body once again. Just as in the beginning when God created mankind and breathed into them the breath of life (spirit) and man became a complete physical living soul.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Those who have been born again of the Spirit from Christ already possess eternal life through His Spirit in us. Though our physical body dies, our breath of life/spirit shall never die, because the life we have through Christ's Spirit shall NEVER die.

This question is not very compelling at all. I don't think bringing believers back with Christ implies that the bodies will be resurrected. I just don't see that logic at all.

What would be the purpose of mortal bodies being resurrected immortal & incorruptible if they do not have the breath of life/spirit? Without spirit even an immortal & incorruptible physical body shall remain a corpse. I know this is true because in the beginning A&E were created with the ability to live forever IF they obeyed God. But even though created "very good" with the ability to be physically alive forever, they were not alive before the breath of life/spirit was breathed into them.

You continue to confuse what becomes of the spirit (breath of life) within mankind when our physical body breathes its last, with what become of our body of flesh that dies. The spirit returns to God either alive or in darkness and silence, and our physical body returns to dust. The body resurrected when the last trumpet sounds shall be changed, but the spirit that returned to God alive is the same eternal spirit we received when we were born from above. Because the spirit in us has eternal life, it shall be through the spirit that our immortal & incorruptible physical body shall have physical life forever on the new earth.

When I read these verses I believe that the references to "spirit" here are references to the holy spirit, which is God. That's the spirit that gives life.

The difference between our spirit and the Holy Spirit in us, other than the fact that He is God, is that our natural spirit (breath of life) gives our physical, mortal corruptible body physical life, but the Holy Spirit in us gives our spirit ETERNAL LIFE. Endowed with only natural spirit that every living, breathing creature possesses we are without eternal life so death of our physical body will mean our spirit, like our physical body shall be in darkness and silence until the last trumpet sounds and the fate of every human shall be determined by whether or not our names are found written in the book of life.

 

[rwb]

Ah, so we agree. I thought you believed that these physical bodies would be resurrected. Did I misunderstand you all along?

Of course our physical bodies shall be resurrected! That fact cannot be made any clearer. But remember they shall not be resurrected as they died. Because the physical body shall be resurrected immortal and incorruptible. We shall not be as we now are with mortal, corruptible body destined to death. We shall be resurrected IN power, not WITH power. Our physical body though sown in dishonor shall be raised IN glory not FOR glory. When our natural body dies we are raised, not resurrected physical body that shall not be until the last trumpet sounds. But our body raised when our natural body dies is a spiritual body.

As Paul shows us the natural physical body sown is NOT going to be the physical body resurrected when the last trumpet sounds. Why? Because the body resurrected will be immortal & incorruptible having the breath of life through the ETERNAL spirit that returns with Christ.

 

[rwb]

Looks like it.

The bodies of the unsaved will be resurrected back to mortality so they can die a second time, the second death of Rev 20.

That's because the physical body resurrected of the unbelievers shall not have an ETERNAL spirit to give their resurrected physical bodies immortal & incorruptible life. They will be raised to physical life through natural spirit to have their part in the lake of fire that is the second death.

 

[Timtofly]

You say a body is still physical, but Paul said there are two kinds of bodies. A physical body and a spiritual body.

You say the physical does not stop, but God said to dust you will return.

You say that is why the soul has both a body and spirit, but you're not providing any evidence of that, so why should I believe you?

You say the spirit does not replace the body, but on what are you basing that? How do you know I'm not right?

"It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

Paul was not making a difference between physical and spiritual. There is a physical body seperate from the spirit that is put on. Paul was pointing out the difference between a temporal and permanent body. One from Adam and of dust. The other from God, that cannot die. Spiritual means from God. Natural means from Adam.

Even the body is put on and the spirit is put on. Not one verse claims being a son of God is having a spirit inside of you. The Holy Spirit yes, your natural spirit no.

John calls it a robe of white. Paul calls being glorified putting on immortality. It is putting something on in all of Scripture.

You refute your own point by still using the word body. The body is physical. The spirit is of God, and is also spiritual like God. God is also light, so this spirit is also light. On the mount of Transfiguration, Jesus became light. Not really, but Jesus showed what the spirit is over the body, a bright light.

We have all three parts, because Paul said to live in obedience:

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

God is a trinity, and in the image of God, we are a trinity. The soul and spirit currently are independent of each other, because we are spiritually dead, meaning seperated. The body cannot function independently of the soul, it would be dead. The soul is not made to remain in death, without a body, but prior to the Cross, the OT redeemed were waiting for that redemption. That is why they were in a section of sheol called Abraham's bosom.

Jesus coming to earth in a physical body, the Cross, and resurrection was the event that brought about the soul joining a physical body, now in Paradise. The Second Coming will be the final restoration of the spirit with the soul and body. Because John said they all were given white robes as symbolic of that restoration. Paul points out it is death putting on life, the final step in making us complete and sons of God with soul putting on body and spirit for those on the earth. Those in Paradise putting on the spirit, the robe of white at the 5th Seal.

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

The church would wait for the final harvest while the rest of humanity was removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

 

[Timtofly]

You say the spirit was "on over the physical body", but the Bible doesn't say that. That's your way of explaining what happened, but if the Bible doesn't actually say that, then you can't be sure.

And besides, why do we call it the "transfiguration" if he, as you say, he was merely robed?

Who is saying that it was Jesus that changed or even changed His appearance? That seems to be reading into what happened.

All Jesus or God had to do was open their eyes to the spiritual world all around them. They were spiritually blind. They even saw Moses and Elijah standing there. Then later the 3 disciples saw nothing again, except Jesus as He normally would look.

Paul said:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

In this body of death, we cannot even see what is spiritual around us. In fact in the Law of Moses, we are to have no part in this spiritual reality. We are to submit to the Holy Spirit and that is all we are to do.