Will Trump seek asylum in Israel and Build the 3rd Temple?

[Freedm]

Believers have indeed experienced life from death already. Not physical life from physical death as you seem to be implying. But spiritual life from spiritual death for those who "were dead in trespasses and sins." (Eph 2)

Where in scripture does it distinguish between physical death and spiritual death, as you are? Ephesians 2 does not do that. Paul describes the sinner as "dead in sin", but he's not explaining exactly what he means by that, and he's certainly not distinguishing between spiritual death and physical death. I see how you're deducing your doctrine from this, but that is all it is, a deduction. With that in mind, you have to consider other possible deductions.

My understanding from Ephesians 2 is that in sin, there is no eternal life, but only the promise of death. We see that elsewhere in scripture as well, that "the wages of sin is death". I believe this is what Paul was referring to, which is very different from what you're saying.

The Scripture calls this having part in the "first resurrection" and how we overcome the second death (Rev 20).

I don't see scripture saying that anywhere. That is your understanding, but it does not explicitly say that, so therefore you have to allow that your understanding could be wrong.

 

[Freedm]

Through our eternal spirit our mortal body shall be resurrected to life and changed (mortal to immortal & corruptible to incorruptible) in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. When we physically die in Christ, we have eternal spiritual life through His Spirit in us that our spirit can never die.

Your reference to "mortal to immortal", etc. comes from 1 Corinthians 15, which also clearly distinguishes between the earthly body, and the heavenly body. You however, are claiming that our ultimate prize is the resurrection of our earthly body, "through our eternal spirit", aka our heavenly body. You're claiming that the heavenly body and the earthly body will join together. That's not what Paul said at all.

 

[rwb]

Again, if the person goes to heaven (as a spirit) then the person is not returning to dust, nor sleeping in the earth. Yet the Bible is clear, in the old testament, that the people did return to the dust. So you can not say that the people went to heaven.

You also can not say that the body returns to dust, but the spirit returns to heaven because you'd have to explain that. What is a person? Is a person a body, a spirit, or a consciousness? When God said "to dust you will return" what is "you" in that context? If you say body, then you can not say that "you" goes to heaven because a body can not go to heaven. Also, if you say "body" then why did God not say "To dust your body will return"? Instead he said "To dust you will return". He didn't say "To dust your body will return". So you have to decide, what are you? Because you can't have it both ways. You can't both "return to the dust" and "go to heaven". That's impossible.

Solomon can help you to better understand for he writes: Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It is only the body of believers that physically dies when the spirit departs the living body to return to God. Those who have been born again before physical death have the Holy Spirit of Christ in them. It is through His Spirit that we return to God in heaven with life or a living (spirit) soul.

 

[rwb]

It appears to, but like I said in my other post, the word "spirit" there would be more accurately translated as breath of life. That is the breath of life that God gave us in Genesis 2:7.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Nowhere does it tell us that God gave us a spirit, but it does tell us that God gave us breath, so when we talk about something that is "returned to God who gave it", and that which is returned can be translated as either spirit, or breath, then it has to be breath.

The breath of life God breathed into the body of dust IS spirit! It is the internal part of every, living, breathing creature that gives every life function to every human part. The spirit maintains physical life to every organ, and is the source of blood flowing to every part. So body with spirit (breath of life) became a living soul. Everything upon the earth with breath of life is a living soul. Only mankind is given eternal spiritual life through the Holy Spirit when we have been born again of Him.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Breath of life - nᵉshâmâh chay

נְשָׁמָה nᵉshâmâh, nesh-aw-maw' from H5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal:—blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

חַי chay, khah'-ee from H2421; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively:— age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, merry, multitude, (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

 

[Freedm]

Solomon can help you to better understand for he writes: Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It is only the body of believers that physically dies when the spirit departs the living body to return to God. Those who have been born again before physical death have the Holy Spirit of Christ in them. It is through His Spirit that we return to God in heaven with life or a living (spirit) soul.

You probably haven't read my other posts yet where I address this. I believe "the spirit returns to God who gave it" is a poor translation. It should read "the breath of life returns to God who gave it". He gave in Genesis 2:7. Nowhere does scripture tell us that he gave us a spirit, but he did give us the breath of life, so that is what returns to God.

 

[rwb]

Paul said there is an earthly body and a heavenly / spiritual body (1 Cor 15), which to me means that we do not have both bodies at the same time. You're implying however that we do.

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but you believe that the resurrection is simply the reunification of the spirit with the body. Correct? See, that makes no sense to me for three reasons.

1. If we live on as spirits after we die, then we don't actually ever die.
2. If we don't actually ever die, then Jesus' resurrection was pointless, because we already have eternal life.
3. Why would we want to rejoin with these old bodies if we already have spiritual bodies?

It just don't make sense. My understanding makes a lot more sense. We have one body at a time, either physical or spiritual and our spiritual body is eternal.

As living spirit in heaven, spiritual body of believers, we are not whole. We must be made whole again to inherit the new earth. Because the earth is created for humans and heaven is the habitation of the spiritual body of believers.

 

[Freedm]

The breath of life God breathed into the body of dust IS spirit!

What do you think you are?

 

[rwb]

Where in scripture does it distinguish between physical death and spiritual death, as you are? Ephesians 2 does not do that. Paul describes the sinner as "dead in sin", but he's not explaining exactly what he means by that, and he's certainly not distinguishing between spiritual death and physical death. I see how you're deducing your doctrine from this, but that is all it is, a deduction. With that in mind, you have to consider other possible deductions.

My understanding from Ephesians 2 is that in sin, there is no eternal life, but only the promise of death. We see that elsewhere in scripture as well, that "the wages of sin is death". I believe this is what Paul was referring to, which is very different from what you're saying.

Since it is clear that all mankind is destined to die physically, what part of man has eternal life that shall never die when our physical body dies? Our intellect comes from the spirit (breath of life) every living breathing creature upon the earth possesses. When Paul says, "you who were dead in trespasses and sins" would you not agree this death is spiritual and not physical?

Ephesians 2:2-3 (KJV) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Paul never says we who were dead in sins have been resurrected, but 'quickened' together with Christ, and raised up together with Him in heavenly places. Are we physically quickened (made alive) or spiritually made alive? Because before this quickening we were not physically dead in trespasses and sins, but spiritually according to the desires of our flesh that come from the mind of those who by nature were children of wrath.

Ephesians 2:5-7 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Whosoever lives and believes in Christ never dies! Physically or spiritually?

 

[rwb]

I don't see scripture saying that anywhere. That is your understanding, but it does not explicitly say that, so therefore you have to allow that your understanding could be wrong.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

John 11:25 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Acts 26:23 (KJV) That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 15:20 (KJV) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

 

[rwb]

Your reference to "mortal to immortal", etc. comes from 1 Corinthians 15, which also clearly distinguishes between the earthly body, and the heavenly body. You however, are claiming that our ultimate prize is the resurrection of our earthly body, "through our eternal spirit", aka our heavenly body. You're claiming that the heavenly body and the earthly body will join together. That's not what Paul said at all.

Then what do you think Paul is saying? Paul tells us when our mortal/natural body dies it is raised a spiritual body, because there is both a natural/mortal body and a spiritual body. Clearly the two are not the same. On earth in Christ we are a natural body of believers, and in heaven after our physical body dies we are in heaven a spiritual body of believers.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[rwb]

You probably haven't read my other posts yet where I address this. I believe "the spirit returns to God who gave it" is a poor translation. It should read "the breath of life returns to God who gave it". He gave in Genesis 2:7. Nowhere does scripture tell us that he gave us a spirit, but he did give us the breath of life, so that is what returns to God.

As I've already said, the breath of life is spirit/soul. I even showed how breath of life is defined in the Hebrew as spirit/soul with life. The mortal body without spirit becomes a corpse, but the spirit indwelt with the Holy Spirit from Christ returns to God alive.

 

[rwb]

What do you think you are?

I believe the Bible shows us we are physical body with spirit that originally came from God called "breath of life" that gives life function to our body. Together body + spirit became a living soul. Where there is life, whether physical or spiritual there is a living soul. In life we are physical living souls, and after death believers are spiritual living (spirit souls). Or as Paul writes natural body and spiritual body.

 

[ewq1938]

It appears to, but like I said in my other post, the word "spirit" there would be more accurately translated as breath of life. That is the breath of life that God gave us in Genesis 2:7.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Nowhere does it tell us that God gave us a spirit, but it does tell us that God gave us breath, so when we talk about something that is "returned to God who gave it", and that which is returned can be translated as either spirit, or breath, then it has to be breath.

It's the same thing, breath of life or spirit. The important part is that part of us does not stay in the dead body but returns.

 

[ewq1938]

Paul said there is an earthly body and a heavenly / spiritual body (1 Cor 15), which to me means that we do not have both bodies at the same time. You're implying however that we do.

I have never implied that because it isn't true. One body at a time and most people will die and be inbetween the bodies until resurrection when the immortal body is received.

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but you believe that the resurrection is simply the reunification of the spirit with the body. Correct? See, that makes no sense to me for three reasons.

1. If we live on as spirits after we die, then we don't actually ever die.

The first death is when our mortal body dies. It's a partial death if you need to get technical.

The second death is complete death, body soul and spirit all die.

2. If we don't actually ever die, then Jesus' resurrection was pointless, because we already have eternal life.

We do die. Our soul/spirit is not immortal and will be killed in the second death judgment unless we are in the book of life.

3. Why would we want to rejoin with these old bodies if we already have spiritual bodies?

The only spiritual body is the immortal body and no one has it yet. There is no temp body between this Earthly body and the next body.

It just don't make sense. My understanding makes a lot more sense. We have one body at a time, either physical or spiritual and our spiritual body is eternal.

There is no other understanding that I have seen from anyone.

 

[rwb]

I have never implied that because it isn't true. One body at a time and most people will die and be inbetween the bodies until resurrection when the immortal body is received.

Ewq in reply #453 you said the breath of life and spirit are the same thing, and that "part of us does not stay in the dead body but returns". Now you argue we are one body at a time? Are we not two-part body & spirit as a living soul before our body dies? Is it not the spirit that leaves our body at death and returns to God who gave it? Perhaps you could explain what "one body at a time" is exactly?

We do die. Our soul/spirit is not immortal and will be killed in the second death judgment unless we are in the book of life.

The spirit/soul that has the Holy Spirit of Christ within is ETERNAL. That's why the second death has no power over all who have been born again of His Spirit, whose names are written in the book of life.

The only spiritual body is the immortal body and no one has it yet. There is no temp body between this Earthly body and the next body.

When Paul writes we are natural body and spiritual body he is speaking of the spiritual body communally. IOW just as the body of Christ (believers/Christians) are on this earth a natural body of believers in Christ, so too in heaven we shall be a spiritual body of believers after our body dies. That's because the spirit that has eternal life NEVER dies.

 

[Freedm]

Then what do you think Paul is saying? Paul tells us when our mortal/natural body dies it is raised a spiritual body, because there is both a natural/mortal body and a spiritual body. Clearly the two are not the same. On earth in Christ we are a natural body of believers, and in heaven after our physical body dies we are in heaven a spiritual body of believers.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

It seems pretty clear to me. When your physical body dies, you are resurrected in a spiritual body. You have one at a time, not both at the same time.

 

[rwb]

It seems pretty clear to me. When your physical body dies, you are resurrected in a spiritual body. You have one at a time, not both at the same time.

If your physical body does not possess the breath of life (spirit) it remains without physical life. Once again man was created with a body + breath of life (spirit) and together he/she became a living soul. When the spirit (breath of life) departs from our physical body, the body returns to dust, and the spirit of every human being returns to God. (Ecc 12:7) Then the spirit (breath of life) of every human will either be a living (spirit) soul or will remain in darkness and silence without the breath of life. Then when our living spirit soul returns with Christ, our physical body will be resurrected to immortal life through our eternal spirit (breath of life) just as we were when God created man.

 

[ewq1938]

It seems pretty clear to me. When your physical body dies, you are resurrected in a spiritual body.

Not when you die though. The resurrection of the faithful is always written as a future event that happens at the second coming.

 

[rwb]

Not when you die though. The resurrection of the faithful is always written as a future event that happens at the second coming.

The physical resurrection of ALL the dead shall be in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. It's not only the faithful who shall be physically resurrected it is ALL who are in the graves. IOW ALL the dead.

See Jo 5:28-29 and 1Cor 15:51-54

 

[Freedm]

Jesus' sacrifice is about sins being forgiven because the required price was paid forever. Sprits that live on after the death of the body is not directly related to Christ's sacrifice since it happens to all people who die.

I'm not sure how you think this answer the question, so let me ask it again (although it is somewhat of a rhetorical question because the answer is obvious). If people already had eternal life before Jesus, then what was the point of Jesus' sacrifice?

Answer: There would not have been any point, therefore we know that people did not live forever in spirit form prior to Jesus. It's plain as day.

The truth is, we needed Jesus' sacrifice, to give us eternal life, because prior to his sacrifice we did not have eternal life. Which means we did not live on as spirits after death. This is about as straight forward as it gets. The doctrine that says people lived forever, as spirits, prior to Jesus, is a false doctrine, obviously.