Will Trump seek asylum in Israel and Build the 3rd Temple?

[Freedm]

Through our eternal spirit our mortal body shall be resurrected to life and changed (mortal to immortal & corruptible to incorruptible) in an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. When we physically die in Christ, we have eternal spiritual life through His Spirit in us that our spirit can never die.

Think about what you're saying here, because it makes no sense. If we already have immortal spiritual bodies, why would we want immortal physical bodies? Answer: we wouldn't. There would be no point.

How can you say that after we are already living as immortal spirits, that for some reason we would still be looking forward to the grand prize of the old physical body immortalized. Why would that be the prize? I know that if I was living in an immortal spiritual body, I would certainly not care to go back to the old physical body. Why would I? Why would that be the prize when I'm already immortal? It makes no sense.

 

[Freedm]

If your physical body does not possess the breath of life (spirit) it remains without physical life. Once again man was created with a body + breath of life (spirit) and together he/she became a living soul. When the spirit (breath of life) departs from our physical body, the body returns to dust, and the spirit of every human being returns to God. (Ecc 12:7) Then the spirit (breath of life) of every human will either be a living (spirit) soul or will remain in darkness and silence without the breath of life. Then when our living spirit soul returns with Christ, our physical body will be resurrected to immortal life through our eternal spirit (breath of life) just as we were when God created man.

Again, what would be the point of returning to our old physical bodies if we're already immortal spirits? I'm not sure why y'all are so hung up on these physical bodies.

 

[rwb]

I'm not sure how you think this answer the question, so let me ask it again (although it is somewhat of a rhetorical question because the answer is obvious). If people already had eternal life before Jesus, then what was the point of Jesus' sacrifice?

Answer: There would not have been any point, therefore we know that people did not live forever in spirit form prior to Jesus. It's plain as day.

The truth is, we needed Jesus' sacrifice, to give us eternal life, because prior to his sacrifice we did not have eternal life. Which means we did not live on as spirits after death. This is about as straight forward as it gets. The doctrine that says people lived forever, as spirits, prior to Jesus, is a false doctrine, obviously.

I agree, but we have to remember the only part of man that has eternal life when he/she is born again is spirit! We will not have immortal & incorruptible physical life again after death until our body too is resurrected and made alive again through our eternal spirit that returns with Christ.

 

[rwb]

Think about what you're saying here, because it makes no sense. If we already have immortal spiritual bodies, why would we want immortal physical bodies? Answer: we wouldn't. There would be no point.

How can you say that after we are already living as immortal spirits, that for some reason we would still be looking forward to the grand prize of the old physical body immortalized. Why would that be the prize? I know that if I was living in an immortal spiritual body, I would certainly not care to go back to the old physical body. Why would I? Why would that be the prize when I'm already immortal? It makes no sense.

Freedm, immortality is for physical life, not spiritual life. Of course, we want immortal physical bodies alive through our eternal spirit. In this way we shall be whole, or complete living soul once again as we were in the beginning when God created man.

Our spirit is NEVER said to become immortal. Why would our spirit need immortality when we are born again, since spiritual life through the Spirit of Christ in us is ETERNAL? To be eternal means our spirit through the Spirit of Christ in us, when we are born again cannot die! It is our physical MORTAL body that must be resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible.

If our spirit does not have eternal life when we believe in Christ, He would not have told us that whosoever lives and believes in Him would NEVER die. He said this knowing our physical body would die, just as His friend Lazarus physically died. But our physical body will not be fit to be inhabited by our eternal spirit until it is changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible. That won't happen until an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds on the last day of this age when Christ comes again, and time for this earth shall be no longer.

 

[rwb]

Again, what would be the point of returning to our old physical bodies if we're already immortal spirits? I'm not sure why y'all are so hung up on these physical bodies.

Again, our spirit alive returns to immortal physical bodies, not the mortal bodies we have now. Because our spirit with the Spirit of Christ is not immortal but eternal, and how our changed immortal bodies have the breath of life so we can once again be complete living soul.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm not sure how you think this answer the question, so let me ask it again (although it is somewhat of a rhetorical question because the answer is obvious). If people already had eternal life before Jesus, then what was the point of Jesus' sacrifice?

No one had an eternal life before Jesus and still do not to this day. Eternal life comes at the second coming for the saved.


Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

"to come" means NOT NOW

Eternal life only comes in the next world, not this one. What we have NOW is the PROMISE.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

In the regeneration, or the next world, shall we INHERIT everlasting life. We do not receive it now!


Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The "raising up" is the time when everlasting life is to be received.


Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


The end result of serving God is everlasting life just as the end result of serving sin is death.



1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

We are PROMISED eternal life in the WORLD TO COME.


Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

They did NOT have eternal life at the time of this writing! They were HEIRS, WAITING WITH HOPE to inherit eternal life which is received in the WORLD TO COME which means not this world, not this life but the next...the future!

 

[rwb]

No one had an eternal life before Jesus and still do not to this day. Eternal life comes at the second coming for the saved'

Mark 10:30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

1 Timothy 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

"to come" means NOT NOW

Eternal life only comes in the next world, not this one. What we have NOW is the PROMISE.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

In the regeneration, or the next world, shall we INHERIT everlasting life. We do not receive it now!

Joh_6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The "raising up" is the time when everlasting life is to be received.

Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The end result of serving God is everlasting life just as the end result of serving sin is death.

1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

We are PROMISED eternal life in the WORLD TO COME.

Titus 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

They did NOT have eternal life at the time of this writing! They were HEIRS, WAITING WITH HOPE to inherit eternal life which is received in the WORLD TO COME which means not this world, not this life but the next...the future!

The eternal life we shall have physically on the new earth in the age to come is ours spiritually NOW through His Spirit in us. Because when we have the Spirit of Christ in us we NEVER die.

John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

We know our bodies destined to die will not live forever. But by His Spirit in us our spirit shall NEVER die. If this were not true Christ would not have promised that when we live and believe in Him we shall never die. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who will not leave us until the redemption of our immortal bodies in the resurrection in and hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[Timtofly]

Then when our living spirit soul returns with Christ, our physical body will be resurrected to immortal life through our eternal spirit (breath of life) just as we were when God created man.

That breadth of life you call "spirit" is not you, nor even belongs to you. That was God's breath, and God's Holy Spirit. And yes, the Holy Spirit returned to God in the OT. The soul went to Abraham's bosom. The body of death returned to the dust, never to be seen again.

After the Cross, a soul goes to Paradise and enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body. The Holy Spirit still returns to God, and the dead body still returns to dust, never to be seen again. The only thing about you is that you are a soul. A soul that puts on a body, and one day will put on the spirit over that body. Then you will be a son of God as per Genesis 1:26-27.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Wow, this thread has gone into arguing over one topic, them to another, and another ......and it's still going.....

 

[Freedm]

I agree, but we have to remember the only part of man that has eternal life when he/she is born again is spirit! We will not have immortal & incorruptible physical life again after death until our body too is resurrected and made alive again through our eternal spirit that returns with Christ.

Why would we want immortal physical life, if we already have immortal spiritual life? Seriously, what's the point? Life is life. We either have eternal life, or we don't. If we already have it, then we're done. We've received our reward.

Why would "our body too" need to be resurrected? I think this is the prevailing doctrine because that's what people imagine. I think people have a hard time understanding life as a spirit, and so when they think of life, they think of the physical body, and when they think of resurrection, they again think of the physical body. This is a mental block. A blinder. You have to let go of this idea that these physical bodies are our reward, and then you'll be able to see that we don't need these physical bodies to have eternal life.

 

[Freedm]

Freedm, immortality is for physical life, not spiritual life.

Based on what? Is that based on scripture? Or your imagination? Does scripture tell you that immortality is for physical life? If so, you should be able to show me that. Or are you just arguing for this because this is what you've always believed, and you're not even sure why you've always believed it?

 

[Freedm]

No one had an eternal life before Jesus and still do not to this day. Eternal life comes at the second coming for the saved.

But don't you believe that, before Jesus, those who died went to heaven in spirit form? Now you seem to be contradicting that, because if you go to heaven, you have life. So which is it? Did the people actually die (as I believe) or did they go to heaven?

I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "The body died, but the spirit went to heaven", but that's where your argument falls apart because sometimes you refer to the body as the person, and other times you refer to it as just a vessel for that person. So what is the person? I think that's the first thing we need to agree on.

Let me ask you this: Is a conscious spirit, alive? And if so, is that conscious spirit, a person?

 

[rwb]

Why would we want immortal physical life, if we already have immortal spiritual life? Seriously, what's the point? Life is life. We either have eternal life, or we don't. If we already have it, then we're done. We've received our reward.

Why would "our body too" need to be resurrected? I think this is the prevailing doctrine because that's what people imagine. I think people have a hard time understanding life as a spirit, and so when they think of life, they think of the physical body, and when they think of resurrection, they again think of the physical body. This is a mental block. A blinder. You have to let go of this idea that these physical bodies are our reward, and then you'll be able to see that we don't need these physical bodies to have eternal life.

I've NEVER said "we already have immortal spiritual life"! When we are in Christ we have ETERNAL spirit that shall never die. Our spirit, alive eternally through the Spirit of Christ in us, shall return with Christ to give immortal/incorruptible life to our resurrected physical body so we shall be whole again, fit to live with Christ forever on the new earth.

Why will there be a new earth after this first earth passes away if man shall not dwell physically on the new earth forever? The earth would not be necessary if we remain spiritual body and never changed from mortal physical body to immortal physical body?

Eternal spiritual life and immortal/incorruptible physical life is our reward on the new earth. Until that day, after our physical body breathes its last, we are spiritual body in heaven waiting for an hour coming when the last trump sounds and we shall once again be whole or complete "living souls."

 

[rwb]

Based on what? Is that based on scripture? Or your imagination? Does scripture tell you that immortality is for physical life? If so, you should be able to show me that. Or are you just arguing for this because this is what you've always believed, and you're not even sure why you've always believed it?

Immortality is physical because our body, not our spirit, is mortal and corruptible, destined to die. Our spirit through the Spirit of Christ in us is not mortal and corruptible when in Christ. Because our spirit has been 'quickened' or made alive eternally through the Spirit of Christ that shall be with us always.

Romans 6:12 (KJV) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 8:11 (KJV) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Philippians 3:21 (KJV) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1 Corinthians 15:53 (KJV) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54 (KJV) So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

2 Corinthians 4:11 (KJV) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

2 Corinthians 5:4 (KJV) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Our flesh is mortal and corruptible, destined to die. Our spirit IN CHRIST is eternal and shall NEVER die.

 

[rwb]

But don't you believe that, before Jesus, those who died went to heaven in spirit form? Now you seem to be contradicting that, because if you go to heaven, you have life. So which is it? Did the people actually die (as I believe) or did they go to heaven?

I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "The body died, but the spirit went to heaven", but that's where your argument falls apart because sometimes you refer to the body as the person, and other times you refer to it as just a vessel for that person. So what is the person? I think that's the first thing we need to agree on.

Let me ask you this: Is a conscious spirit, alive? And if so, is that conscious spirit, a person?

Our spirit with life after physical death is a "living soul" without a mortal body that became a corpse in physical death. There are examples in Scripture for saints being alive in heaven after physical death. One is found in Rev 20 where John writes of "souls" alive after having been faithful unto death during their lifetimes.

Our human body while still alive is also called a "living soul." Because when we are alive whether during physical life or after physical death, IN CHRIST we shall NEVER die. Where life is found, whether physical or spiritual we are called "living souls." It is our spirit that gives life to our physical body. Our spirit through the Spirit of Christ is still alive and ascends to heaven after our body becomes a corpse.

 

[ewq1938]

But don't you believe that, before Jesus, those who died went to heaven in spirit form? Now you seem to be contradicting that, because if you go to heaven, you have life. So which is it? Did the people actually die (as I believe) or did they go to heaven?

Both if they a e saved. Being alive in spirit and soul does not equal eternal life yet.

I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "The body died, but the spirit went to heaven", but that's where your argument falls apart because sometimes you refer to the body as the person, and other times you refer to it as just a vessel for that person. So what is the person? I think that's the first thing we need to agree on.

A complete person is body soul and spirit. At death, only the body dies, the other two live on until resurrection. At resurrection the saved will be immortal, and the unsaved will die a second death but this is death of all three body soul and spirit. There is no resurrection for the second death.

Let me ask you this: Is a conscious spirit, alive? And if so, is that conscious spirit, a person?

Alive, not a complete person.

 

[TLHKAJ]

The Committee of 300

How "elections" are won....

 

[Freedm]

I've NEVER said "we already have immortal spiritual life"! When we are in Christ we have ETERNAL spirit that shall never die. Our spirit, alive eternally through the Spirit of Christ in us, shall return with Christ to give immortal/incorruptible life to our resurrected physical body so we shall be whole again, fit to live with Christ forever on the new earth.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. You say "when we are in Christ we have eternal spirit that shall never die". That's literally the same as saying we have eternal spiritual life, yet you're adamant that you "NEVER" said we already have immortal spiritual life. But I'm going to assume that I'm misunderstanding you here because I don't think you would knowingly contradict yourself, so in order for your statement to make any sense to me at all, you must mean that this eternally alive spirit, which leaves our body, has no consciousness. Is that what you're saying?

Why will there be a new earth after this first earth passes away if man shall not dwell physically on the new earth forever? The earth would not be necessary if we remain spiritual body and never changed from mortal physical body to immortal physical body?

You should understand, that the "new heaven and new earth" is the replacement for the temple, which was referred to as "heaven and earth" by the Jews. It was called such because it was man's connection to God, in other words, it was the connection between heaven and earth. The outer court was "earth", and the inner "heaven". Jesus Christ is our new "heaven and earth" as he is our new connection to God.

Coincidentally, this is why John, in Revelation 21, said "there was no longer any sea", as the sea refers to the variety of nations and languages, because we are all one in Christ.

Eternal spiritual life and immortal/incorruptible physical life is our reward on the new earth. Until that day, after our physical body breathes its last, we are spiritual body in heaven waiting for an hour coming when the last trump sounds and we shall once again be whole or complete "living souls."

You say physical life on earth is our reward, but you have to admit, scripture does not actually say that. It only says eternal life is our reward. You're assuming it means physical life on earth. Or am I missing something?

 

[Freedm]

A complete person is body soul and spirit. At death, only the body dies, the other two live on until resurrection. At resurrection the saved will be immortal, and the unsaved will die a second death but this is death of all three body soul and spirit. There is no resurrection for the second death.

"At death only the body dies but the other two live on". This makes no sense on so many levels.

1. What are you? Are you a body, or a spirit or a soul? If you're a spirit, then when the body dies YOU do not die because the body is only a vessel, because you are a spirit. If you're all three, then you also do not die, only a part of you dies, like losing a limb I suppose. So then if you do not die, you do not need to be resurrected.

2. If "the other two live on", then do these two things (spirit and soul) each have their own consciousness? Do they have separate lives? Do you become two persons? Can one of you speak to the other one? Or are these two things joined together? And if they're together, then they are one thing, so why do you refer to them as two separate things? It makes no sense at all.

3. You say "at resurrection the saved will be immortal", but even before the resurrection you admit that the spirit and soul (whatever that means) are alive, so are you not that spirit and soul? So are you then not alive? So why then do you need to be resurrected?

Really, it all comes down to this simple question: What are you? You can not define death or life, until you define what you are, and so far your explanations are all very nebulous and confusing. You seem to be saying we are three different things at the same time, but never do all three of them die, yet somehow "we" are in need of resurrection. Can you make it make sense? Can you explain to me please, what are you?

And just for reference, Paul made it very simple. He said there is a physical body, and a spiritual body. That's it. Two bodies. You either have one or the other. You start with one, and then at the resurrection, you are transformed into the other. That makes sense. And that is completely different from what you're telling me.

 

[rwb]

You seem to be contradicting yourself. You say "when we are in Christ we have eternal spirit that shall never die". That's literally the same as saying we have eternal spiritual life, yet you're adamant that you "NEVER" said we already have immortal spiritual life. But I'm going to assume that I'm misunderstanding you here because I don't think you would knowingly contradict yourself, so in order for your statement to make any sense to me at all, you must mean that this eternally alive spirit, which leaves our body, has no consciousness. Is that what you're saying?

Maybe I'm not explaining well enough, so I will try again.

The spirit or breath of life we receive from God is given eternal life that can never die when we are born again. But our flesh is still mortal, and corruptible. Since neither flesh and blood nor corruption can inherit the Kingdom of God only our physical flesh needs to be resurrected and changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible.

Our spirit or breath of life is already ETERNAL and needs only an immortal & incorruptible body of flesh to be whole again. Our spirit does not itself become immortal & incorruptible but the body our spirit indwells does.

When in physical death our spirit leaves our body, as a spiritual body it ascends to heaven ALIVE. There are verses that indicate that in heaven we sing praises and worship the Lord, so no I do not believe the spiritual body has no consciousness. Else why would Christ say that whosoever lives and believes in Him shall never die?

You should understand, that the "new heaven and new earth" is the replacement for the temple, which was referred to as "heaven and earth" by the Jews. It was called such because it was man's connection to God, in other words, it was the connection between heaven and earth. The outer court was "earth", and the inner "heaven". Jesus Christ is our new "heaven and earth" as he is our new connection to God.

Whatever you believe the new heaven and earth symbolize of old, I believe the new comes down from heaven after the first heaven and earth passes away. The holy city new Jerusalem is the Church as it exists in heaven that is prepared as a bride (Church) adorned for her husband.

You say physical life on earth is our reward, but you have to admit, scripture does not actually say that. It only says eternal life is our reward. You're assuming it means physical life on earth. Or am I missing something?

The Scripture tells us we shall have both eternal life as well as immortal life in the age to come. Since our body will be immortal and incorruptible I cannot fathom them not being physical, as humankind was in the beginning when God created man. Just as in the beginning the earth was created for humans to dwell, so too the new earth will be made new again for humans with spirit + body = living souls (humankind) will one day dwell with Christ physically forever.