Christ Saved Us... What Do Good Works Do?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,422
687
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@mailmandan
@Rella
@Ritajanice

Dan, you never had an answer on Christian Chat, and you won't have one now.

Yes, we're "saved", and that "Salvation" is as the Jews' from Egypt--still, they fell under God's wrath for sinning after being saved, and forfeited the Promise. Paul said this in 1 Co 9:26-1 Co 10.

I don't deny we were saved by grace through faith--rather, it is yourselves who deny the nature of "salvation", infusing the word with your own man made traditional meanings that have nothing to do with the Bible, having not come from the Bible to begin with, and having no root in historical Christianity.

There, your error is fixed. Enjoy!
 
Last edited:
  • Sad
Reactions: mailmandan

Big Boy Johnson

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2023
3,561
1,447
113
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you actually know what it means to not be under law...but under grace?

I know you don't understand what the New Testament is talking about when it speaks of believers are now under the Law of Christ.

You think anytime you see "law" in the New Testament it's automatically speaking of the OT law.... but it's not.

I wouldn't expect the OSAS peoples to understand seeing they only accept a hand full of happy verses as being true and throw the rest of God's Word in the trash as their handlers have indoctrinated them to do embarassed.gif
 

Ritajanice

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Mar 9, 2023
6,022
3,971
113
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
I wouldn't expect the OSAS peoples to understand seeing they only accept a hand full of happy verses as being true and throw the rest of God's Word in the trash as their handlers have indoctrinated them to do View attachment 37354
Who is saying they are OSAS ?

Who are you speaking of here?

We are Born Again...we are under the New Covenant...Therefore under grace.

For the second time....explain what it means?

You repeat the same old same old.

Please answer, the question?....are you denying that scripture I posted, did you actually read it?


A Born Again is under grace?

What does it mean, that we are under God’s Grace?

The scripture you post has got nothing to do with a Born Again...they are safe for all eternity....God’s Living word says so....?
 

mailmandan

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2020
4,520
4,797
113
The Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@mailmandan
@Rella
@Ritajanice

Dan, you never had an answer on Christian Chat, and you won't have one now.

Yes, we're "saved", and that "Salvation" is as the Jews' from Egypt--still, they fell under God's wrath for sinning after being saved, and forfeited the Promise. Paul said this in 1 Co 9:26-1 Co 10.

I don't deny we were saved by grace through faith--rather, it is yourselves who deny the nature of "salvation", infusing the word with your own man made traditional meanings that have nothing to do with the Bible, having not come from the Bible to begin with, and having no root in historical Christianity.

There, your error is fixed. Enjoy!
I already previously covered your misinterpretation of Jude 1:5; 1 Corinthians 9:26 and 1 Corinthians 10. You just don't have ears to hear on Christian Chat or on the Christianity Board and there is a reason for that.
 

mailmandan

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2020
4,520
4,797
113
The Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I know you don't understand what the New Testament is talking about when it speaks of believers are now under the Law of Christ.

You think anytime you see "law" in the New Testament it's automatically speaking of the OT law.... but it's not.

I wouldn't expect the OSAS peoples to understand seeing they only accept a hand full of happy verses as being true and throw the rest of God's Word in the trash as their handlers have indoctrinated them to do View attachment 37354
I pray that you find a good Bible believing Christian church where you can learn the truth and find fellowship with genuine Christians. Your anti-OSAS derangement syndrome is a sad situation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ritajanice

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,422
687
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I already previously covered your misinterpretation of Jude 1:5; 1 Corinthians 9:26 and 1 Corinthians 10. You just don't have ears to hear on Christian Chat or on the Christianity Board and there is a reason for that.
For the benefit of the readers, so they don't get "misled" by historical Christianity, go ahead and show everyone how I am wrong on 1 Co 9:26-1 Co 10, don't just make an empty claim, lying about how you've provided a sufficient response to the truth of Scripture. Your Johnny Come Lately belief structure is a joke, and just makes a mess of Scripture.
 
  • Sad
Reactions: mailmandan

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,422
687
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I pray that you find a good Bible believing Christian church where you can learn the truth and find fellowship with genuine Christians. Your anti-OSAS derangement syndrome is a sad situation.
It's good that you go to a Church that believes PART of the Bible, but we're trying to believe the WHOLE thing.

We believe in salvation by grace through faith, we ALSO believe the rest of the Bible, not just one teaching in the Bible.
 

Big Boy Johnson

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2023
3,561
1,447
113
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's good that you go to a Church that believes PART of the Bible, but we're trying to believe the WHOLE thing.

We believe in salvation by grace through faith, we ALSO believe the rest of the Bible, not just one teaching in the Bible.

Exactly! thumbsup2.gif

God has a lot more to say concerning salvation that the handful of happy verses the OSAS peoples espouse.
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,422
687
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
@mailmandan
@Big Boy Johnson
@Ritajanice
@Rella

This is my understanding:

Christ says we abide in Him if we keep the "Law of Faith" (Ro 3:27), and if we abide in Him, He supplies us with the Spirit (1 Jn 3:23,24), because the eternal life is in His Son (1 Jn 5:11), but the *singular* Law of Faith is *twofold* :
1) Believe in the Name of God's Son, and
2) Love one another.

"Love one another" is the same as saying "walk by faith", and "walk after the Spirit", because "faith... works by love": infracting "let every man be fully convinced in his own mind" (Ro 14:5) is "sin" (Ro 14:23), but what we do in faith is "God's righteousness revealed from faith to faith" (Ro 1:16,17), like "footsteps of faith" (Ro 4:12), which is what James 2 is talking about, and is just as Paul says, "if we live by the spirit let us also walk by the spirit", so that Christians who do not "walk after the spirit" die and do not live (Ro 8:12,13), whereas even Gentile Christians, who do not have the Law, but who are under Grace and walk after the Spirit, are qualified as "doers of the Law" who will be "justified" when they are "judged" and "repaid... eternal life" (Ro 2:6-16, 26,27; Gal 6:6-10).

This explanation is how Paul can warn the immoral that God will withhold His Spirit if they live that way (1 Th 4:8)--like King David, who said, after his own commission of immorality, "do not cast me away from your presence, and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me" (the presence is by the Spirit (Acts 3:19,20), and *only* God's people have His presence (Ex 33:15,16), the marker they are His people--so this is actually an issue and threat of being "cut off from among his people" (Ex 31:14; Ro 11:17-23), or "blotted out" (Ex 32:32; Rv 3:2-6)).

This perspective is also the only way to reconcile "no condemnation for those in Christ [in Whom there is no sin (1 Jn 3:5)]" (Ro 8:1) with the fact that there is "condemnation" for the believer who "sins" by doing what he doubts (Ro 14:5,23): by infracting the second table of the *singular twofold* "Law of Faith", the believer isn't "abiding" in Christ (1 Jn 2:28), but is led away by some form of idolatry (1 Jn 5:21), whether it is the "Galatian" idolatry ("this persuasion doesn't come from Him Who calls you" (Gal 5:8) means the "false Gospel" is a "doctrine of demons" (1 Ti 4:1), and "the idols the nations worship are demons" (Dt 32:16,17; 1 Co 10:20), resulting in them "deserting Him Who calls you in the grace of Christ" (Gal 1:6; 1 Jn 2:28)) or any other form of idolatry (ie, selfishness--"no covetous man, who is an idolater" (Ep 5:5)).

This perspective also explains how the person who doesn't provide for his family can be said to be "worse than an unbeliever", and be said to have "denied the faith": the command is a twofold but singular command, sinning against one part is like sinning against the other part, so that the practical sin against his family has a double effect of functioning as a denial of the Lord, a violation against the first table of the Law of Faith, which is why it stipulates, "The one who overcomes will be clothed the same way, in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels".
Question: Why would Christ even raise the issue of "confessing them before His Father"?
Answer: "Whoever denies Me before men I will deny before My Father" (Mt 10:33)--the one who sins also is denying the Lord by not representing the Lord before men, since, if he was walking by faith, he would be revealing the Lord in his deeds. As James says, "I will show you my faith *by my works* --walking after the spirit, sowing to the Spirit, doing good, is the second table of the singular twofold "Law of Faith", "confessing Christ" with one's deeds, but to fail to do this, to not walk in faith, but in doubt, is like a denial of Christ, and this "unrighteousness" "suppresses God's truth" (Ro 1:18), and does not reveal His righteousness (even if you may appear "blameless" to men, if you are not walking in faith you're not revealing His righteousness (Ro 1:16,17), but, at best, a righteousness of your own based on the knowledge of Good and Evil (the Law (Pp 3:9) being only one form of the knowledge of good and evil, under which all had generally had been since Adam)), and it is to "defile" of one's "garments" (Rv 3:4), and, as God, Who does not change, says, "the one who sinned against Me I will blot out of My Book" (Ex 32:32).

This perspective explains how Paul can warn Christians that if they don't make their body their slave, instead of allowing their bodies to make them their slaves (going back to the slavery of Sin), that they will fall under God's wrath and forfeit the promise, just as happened to the Jews after they were saved "by the blood of lambs", and "baptized into Moses", and "ate communion" (1 Co 9:26-1 Co 10), which was written for the instruction of Christians.

Protestants tend to overemphasize the first table of the Law of Faith, so that the Bible cannot make sense, whereas the Old World believers (Catholics, Eastern Orthodox) tend to overemphasize the second table of the Law of Faith, so that there is no stability in the finished works of Christ (and this has been my error, and weakness, as well--but I received the grace of prayer through fellowship with other believers, and I have received answers to my prayers), but there is a middle way of emphasizing Christ's finished works, and also recognizing the imperative of not only living by the Spirit but also walking by the Spirit, so that we are not believing in some man's insane nonsensical hole-filled interpretation of the Scriptures, but believing ALL of the Scriptures, believing God, Himself.
 

mailmandan

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2020
4,520
4,797
113
The Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
For the benefit of the readers, so they don't get "misled" by historical Christianity, go ahead and show everyone how I am wrong on 1 Co 9:26-1 Co 10, don't just make an empty claim, lying about how you've provided a sufficient response to the truth of Scripture. Your Johnny Come Lately belief structure is a joke, and just makes a mess of Scripture.
For starters, in regard to Jude 1:5, see post #179 from the link below:

 
  • Like
Reactions: Ritajanice

mailmandan

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2020
4,520
4,797
113
The Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's good that you go to a Church that believes PART of the Bible, but we're trying to believe the WHOLE thing.

We believe in salvation by grace through faith, we ALSO believe the rest of the Bible, not just one teaching in the Bible.
Salvation by works negates salvation by grace through faith, so you don't believe it. So much for the WHOLE thing. You believe a "different" gospel of works-righteousness and self preservation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ritajanice

Ritajanice

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Mar 9, 2023
6,022
3,971
113
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Salvation by works negates salvation by grace through faith, so you don't believe it. So much for the WHOLE thing. You believe a "different" gospel of works-righteousness and self preservation.
That’s what I see also....Amen...Brother spot on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mailmandan

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,422
687
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Salvation by works negates salvation by grace through faith, so you don't believe it. So much for the WHOLE thing. You believe a "different" gospel of works-righteousness and self preservation.
You don't understand salvation by grace through faith includes walking by faith--God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith (Ro 1:16, 17)--if it didn't, the believer who failed to walk by faith wouldn't be condemned for sinning (Ro 14:5,23). Your perspective has no way of accounting for this.

The issue of "works of the Law" is an issue of who is doing the work : when the Galatians were "under the Law", they were condemned because they were relying on "the flesh" (Gal 3:1-3), but Paul's answer wasn't "just Christ", it was "serve one another by love" and "faith which works by love", whereby they would "fulfill the entire Law" (Gal 5), so we see that Paul's instruction is to serve by Grace, since they are under Grace, not under Law, and not serve by Law, which relies on flesh not God to do the work, but work must be done nevertheless.
 

mailmandan

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2020
4,520
4,797
113
The Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Answer to 1 Co 9:26-1 Co 10, I did not raise Jude here.
In post #61, you said - "Yes, we're "saved", and that "Salvation" is as the Jews' from Egypt--still, they fell under God's wrath for sinning after being saved, and forfeited the Promise."

Hence Jude 1:5.
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,422
687
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You don't understand salvation by grace through faith includes walking by faith--God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith (Ro 1:16, 17)--if it didn't, the believer who failed to walk by faith wouldn't be condemned for sinning (Ro 14:5,23). Your perspective has no way of accounting for this.

The issue of "works of the Law" is an issue of who is doing the work : when the Galatians were "under the Law", they were condemned because they were relying on "the flesh" (Gal 3:1-3), but Paul's answer wasn't "just Christ", it was "serve one another by love" and "faith which works by love", whereby they would "fulfill the entire Law" (Gal 5), so we see that Paul's instruction is to serve by Grace, since they are under Grace, not under Law, and not serve by Law, which relies on flesh not God to do the work, but work must be done nevertheless.
In post #61, you said - "Yes, we're "saved", and that "Salvation" is as the Jews' from Egypt--still, they fell under God's wrath for sinning after being saved, and forfeited the Promise."

Hence Jude 1:5.
Answer 1 Co 9:26-1 Co 10.
 

Big Boy Johnson

Well-Known Member
Sep 28, 2023
3,561
1,447
113
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Christ says we abide in Him if we keep the "Law of Faith" (Ro 3:27)

Great overview! The only thing I would add to that is the Law of Christ aka Law of Liberty which New Testament believers live under. (I think you did mention this further down in your write up.)

In the New Testament, many mentions of “the law” is actually referring to Law of Christ (aka the Law of Liberty) and is not talking about the old testament law. Christians are NOT called to keep or live under the old testament law, but we ARE called to live under the Law of Christ.

Ultimately this means we are called to abide In Christ which is living after the Spirit and not after the flesh, or to be spiritually minded and not carnally minded (see Romans 8). As we see in Romans 8, to be spiritually minded is life and peace but to be carnally minded is death which is separation from the Lord.

Galatians 6:2
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:21
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

James 2:12
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


This perspective explains how Paul can warn Christians that if they don't make their body their slave, instead of allowing their bodies to make them their slaves (going back to the slavery of Sin), that they will fall under God's wrath and forfeit the promise

Paul spoke about this on a personal level...

1 Corinthians 9:27
I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Castaway (G0096 in Strong's) = unapproved, rejected, worthless, reprobate.

This is the same greek word used in Romans 1:28 when the Lord turned those over to a reprobate mind who refused retain God in their knowledge and walk with Him.

This means, Paul believed that if he did not control himself and went back to walking after the flesh HE would be unapproved, rejected, worthless, reprobate!

Obviously the Apostle Paul did not believe in "once saved, always saved" aka "eternal security"
 

mailmandan

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2020
4,520
4,797
113
The Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Answer 1 Co 9:26-1 Co 10.
Your eisegesis associated with 1 Cor. 9:26-1 Cor. 10 is not the answer.

In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul is talking about being disqualified for the prize (NIV) and not disqualified for the gift of eternal life. In context, Paul has been discussing preaching the gospel. In verse 18 he says, "What is my reward, then?" In verses 24-27 he illustrates this thought of his reward by the picture of a race run for the prize. Salvation is a gift that we receive by grace through faith, (Ephesians 2:8,9) and not a prize that we race for, win and earn.

Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. That does not sound like a free gift to me. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved.

1 Corinthians 9:24 - "Do you not know that those who run in a race ALL run, but ONLY ONE receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it." In an Olympic race, all runners run but only one receives the gold medal. So, what happens to the runners that receive the silver medal or bronze medal or finish the race with no medal? Are they disqualified from the Olympics or for the prize? Everyone who falls short of winning a gold medal is not disqualified from the Olympics.
 
Last edited:

Ritajanice

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Mar 9, 2023
6,022
3,971
113
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom

Romans 6

English Standard Version

Dead to Sin, Alive to God​

6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self[a] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free[b] from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Slaves to Righteousness​

15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[c] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

GracePeace

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2021
3,422
687
113
Southwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Great overview! The only thing I would add to that is the Law of Christ aka Law of Liberty which New Testament believers live under. (I think you did mention this further down in your write up.)

In the New Testament, many mentions of “the law” is actually referring to Law of Christ (aka the Law of Liberty) and is not talking about the old testament law. Christians are NOT called to keep or live under the old testament law, but we ARE called to live under the Law of Christ.

Ultimately this means we are called to abide In Christ which is living after the Spirit and not after the flesh, or to be spiritually minded and not carnally minded (see Romans 8). As we see in Romans 8, to be spiritually minded is life and peace but to be carnally minded is death which is separation from the Lord.

Galatians 6:2
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:21
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

James 2:12
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

James 1:25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.




Paul spoke about this on a personal level...

1 Corinthians 9:27
I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Castaway (G0096 in Strong's) = unapproved, rejected, worthless, reprobate.

This is the same greek word used in Romans 1:28 when the Lord turned those over to a reprobate mind who refused retain God in their knowledge and walk with Him.

This means, Paul believed that if he did not control himself and went back to walking after the flesh HE would be unapproved, rejected, worthless, reprobate!

Obviously the Apostle Paul did not believe in "once saved, always saved" aka "eternal security"
Even though I agree, I don't usually treat "law of christ" explicitly, because, to my mind, it's implicitly included in everything else I address (eg, walk by faith, walk by the spirit, love one another, not under Law but under Grace, etc), but, yes, I agree.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.