Sinless Perfection?

[mark s]

Amazing!
I hope I get to experience that one day!

TO EVERYONE:
There is an underlying theme among people who do not believe in complete sanctification, it is viewed as a form of "salvation by works". My question to you would be,

How did works get replaced with "not to sin"? Not to sin is now works? Obedience is now works?

A.W Tozer, "To escape the error of salvation by works we have fallen into the opposite error of salvation without obedience"

Now we not only have a people who disbelieve the power of God to complete His work in us so that we are holy, perfect and acceptable to Him, but a people who believe in the long run that sinning has no bearing on their eternity. Sinning matters to God.

Hi JohnnyB,

The error of works lies in the belief that you must maintain or complete your salvation by your good works. This then becomes "faith + works". If, as some claim, you become "unsaved" if you sin, then your perfect obedience is the means of maintaining your salvation. Peter wrote that God's power, through faith, maintains your salvation. So you see there is this conflict.

Now, here is a persistant logical fallacy . . . the idea that if we claim salvation by faith alone, then we must also believe sin doesn't matter.

It matters in our current life experience, and in the rewards we may or may not receive, while not taking away our salvation.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Hepzibah]

If, as some claim, you become "unsaved" if you sin, then your perfect obedience is the means of maintaining your salvation. Peter wrote that God's power, through faith, maintains your salvation. So you see there is this conflict.

Now, here is a persistant logical fallacy . . . the idea that if we claim salvation by faith alone, then we must also believe sin doesn't matter.

It matters in our current life experience, and in the rewards we may or may not receive, while not taking away our salvation.

Hi Mark

Faith alone is required to maintain the walk in the Spirit. Faith that Christ will keep one from sin, to give the power to escape every temptation that arises. It is the failure of that faith that makes a man fall. First of all he depends on his own strength and then the fall comes.

 

[JohnnyB]

Hi JohnnyB,

The error of works lies in the belief that you must maintain or complete your salvation by your good works. This then becomes "faith + works". If, as some claim, you become "unsaved" if you sin, then your perfect obedience is the means of maintaining your salvation. Peter wrote that God's power, through faith, maintains your salvation. So you see there is this conflict.

Now, here is a persistant logical fallacy . . . the idea that if we claim salvation by faith alone, then we must also believe sin doesn't matter.

It matters in our current life experience, and in the rewards we may or may not receive, while not taking away our salvation.

Love in Christ,
Mark

You are making the same error as others, perfect obedience is ONLY done through Christ! You also make the error that not to sin is a work and that iss not at all the works Paul was describing. He is basically saying that the works of the law can not save you, Paul was an advocate for obedience and for that which he had not attained yet.

There are ample warnings in the word about the consequences of remaining in sin.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi haz



I am not back to how I was as a believer but not saved from sin as I am able to not sin whereas before, there was something inside me that could not live in complete obedience even though I desired to. I struggled with my flesh at that time and had a problem with anger which I could barely control at times. Now that the power of sin has been broken there is no sin I struggle with but I feel a heaviness and lack of power to enable me to walk joyfully. So I am not conscious of any sins but neither am I conscious of purity as I was before. I dont fully understand it and long to be back to what I was. Actually I tested one thing that I had when I walked in the light abd that was authority over creation just like Adam had and which Wesley looked for in the ES`ed. It worked. In the past I have ordered the rain to cease and a bees nest to empty (it was empty within 10 minutes, one outside of my window). Oh and I am not complaining about sinners as I was the worst. I am merely witnessing to a better way.

Wow Epi that`s amazing! How long since you were in that state?

Over 10 years now!!! The Lord has been teaching me about righteousness in preparation for my next embarking on the walk of an entire sanctification. The Lord told me to learn Hebrew and studying the bible in that language has helped me understand some great things I could never have perceived otherwise!!! He is instructing in things that I am amazed I was not taught by Him sooner.

He is so faithful and His training is very persistent!!! :)

 

[whitestone]

Nothing you say will hurt my feelings whitestone.
The only thing being harmed is your perceived wonderful image of your religious self.
I encourage you to either read Hebrews in its proper context , or take some basic theology training to know how.
Could save you some embarrassing retractions down the road.

Best wishes in your studies.

My image of myself is crucified with Christ. Try it. You have no idea what it is like! Could save you your present embarrassment.

Hi JohnnyB,

The error of works lies in the belief that you must maintain or complete your salvation by your good works. This then becomes "faith + works". If, as some claim, you become "unsaved" if you sin, then your perfect obedience is the means of maintaining your salvation. Peter wrote that God's power, through faith, maintains your salvation. So you see there is this conflict.

Now, here is a persistant logical fallacy . . . the idea that if we claim salvation by faith alone, then we must also believe sin doesn't matter.

It matters in our current life experience, and in the rewards we may or may not receive, while not taking away our salvation.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Mark you continue to show no comprehension of the topic and continue to misrepresent what Christians say here.

Not one of the Christian brethren here say that righteousness is by our own works as you continue to falsely accuse. That alone is proof you are of the devil, not to mention the false accusations and false doctrines you push as "christian".

The carnal mind is unable to understand that it is the work of the Holy Spirit in us that does His Work. THAT is the "works" being done in a righteous man.

Also, obedience is the result of Christ in us. Not something we "do".

This really is simple Christianity 101. Christ in you the hope of Glory.

Please try to understand. You and Arnie simply circle around and around in your self flushing re-wording of that which your carnal minds are unable to comprehend. Your entire 'doctrine' is destined for the cesspool. What hope do you have the way you crucify Christ every single day??
The men here are attempting to help you and others out of your sin soaked lives through the death of Christ, so please, you and arnie and others here try to show forth some actual sensible conversation here and show some respect for men of God who are well beyond your comprehension of the things of God.

Peace,
Whitestone

 

[Episkopos]

We go through phases in our Christian walk. We see much better AFTER we have been through the phase...hindsight is 20/20 (Fore sight is more 50/50 :) )

So we have an experience with God and are cleansed from all sin!!!! Hooray!! So being rich conceited westerners we assume we are so special and what God has given us is OURS (MY precious) and can be added to our other possessions. We then claim to have a personal Saviour as well as having a personal trainer and personal secretary...etc... Just so many people wanting to serve us!!!! ;)

OK, when we graduate (if we ever do) from this completely selfish baby stage, we begin to realize that if we love God we should obey Him (this just happens to also be biblical! ) So we advance to an adolescent stage where we are seeing our own RESPONSIBILITY for what we have been given. We see that we can actually do all things through Christ. But we still don't see ourselves accurately yet.

After that stage we move (or not) into an adult stage where we are able to handle the whole truth about ourselves. We learn that being in Christ means we ABANDON ourselves to Him and to others. We learn that getting kicked in the head is good if it allows others to be blessed. We care nothing for ourselves but look at producing disciples for Christ who lay down their lives as we have learned to. We teach others through our example. We learn to esteem OTHERS as higher than ourselves. We can now sell all we have and follow Christ to be with Him and suffer with Him to establish His reign on earth.

 

[Hepzibah]

He is so faithful and His training is very persistent!!! :)

Amen! God bless you Epi.

 

[whitestone]

You are making the same error as others, perfect obedience is ONLY done through Christ! You also make the error that not to sin is a work and that iss not at all the works Paul was describing. He is basically saying that the works of the law can not save you, Paul was an advocate for obedience and for that which he had not attained yet.

There are ample warnings in the word about the consequences of remaining in sin.

Excellent understanding Johnny.

Ye, the enemy wrestles to make up a different argument when they don't understand the one in front of them.

Yes, our "obedience" is only manifested in the Righteousness of Christ coming forth in us. They don't comprehend this because it isn't within their range of experience, let alone something they can grasp while still in sin. They haven't received Christ yet. To them, Jesus is still "somewhere else" other than IN THEIR BODY. To them, He still hasn't COME. That is why they can't help but still sin. No one could help but continue to sin with nothing but their own carnal mind within them to go by. They don't even know that the Mind of Christ is nigh them, fully ready to be One in their mind, one mind, one spirit, one language... things we Christians know and live in every moment of our awareness.

When they rebel against this message, they show forth their judgement and it is sad. Yet when there is no remorse, only arguing and false accusing, they then become as the proverb describes them as they wallow in their own filth and speak great swelling words of blasphemy against Christ and the Saints.

For all who read this, know that such things as this are a great polarizing of the sheep and goats. It is at the present time that they align themselves to the left or to the right, and they do so on topics such as this.

If the Bible describes how to receive the Holy Spirit of Christ and be made sinless, and you argue againt such a concept, a man has just judged himself a sinner with the sinners reward.

But a man who hates sin, who hates himself, who knows that of him self is no good thing or ability to do any good thing, that man is as my brethren who dies to self and only finds joy and peace in being raised up in newness of Life in Christ.
Such a man will be different than he was before, especially in regard to his relationship to disobedience.

Men like arnie or Mark or Haz teach differently... that no matter what, their 'god' can NOT enter into their bodies and do ANYTHING! They say you are going to continue to sin, that the Holy Spirit is IMPOTENT to do ANYTHING of a change in your life. That you will continue to sin!

What a satanic teaching to be revealed and disposed of publicly. Such a wicked teaching and the men who teach it in their false accusations against the teachers themselves show forth such smug self diefication as to make everyone else out there to seem as though they know what they are talking about. Don't get takin in by their mimic behavior as a "christian". Just look to see how they speak about the brethren, and just look to see what they say about "sin". You will see what they are made of. And that is why I am flushing them out and revealing them for what they are publicly. If you've ever heard of satanic teaching, there it is, "you can't expect Jesus to make you sinless!" is their teaching! Be not decieved by this enemy of the Gosple. Because you can be made sinless we are happy to let you know :) Then, you too can be falsely accused of sin by them after being delivered from sin by Jesus. Their confusion won't take away from your joy, we are happy to report :)

Peace and wisdom to those who seek to be wise
Whitestone

Over 10 years now!!! The Lord has been teaching me about righteousness in preparation for my next embarking on the walk of an entire sanctification. The Lord told me to learn Hebrew and studying the bible in that language has helped me understand some great things I could never have perceived otherwise!!! He is instructing in things that I am amazed I was not taught by Him sooner.

He is so faithful and His training is very persistent!!! :)

It is evident brother :)
I was a "christian" in 1976, but it wasn't until 1982 that I received the Holy Spirit of Christ. It was a wrestling match for many years after as my flesh rebelled against the Spirit of Christ as He kept trying to move into me. It was a long haul and sanctification didn't begin to change my actual thoughts and conduct until within the last ten years also. I was so sick of seeing sin being manifest in me, I knew I was in dangerous waters allowing sin to continue in my life. It was a warning buzzer that my act was not together before the Lord. I used to hang around people who didn't know what the Bible talked about with sanctification and perfection in Christ. I thought it was all "future". The same kind of message of the lost we read here all the time, that it is impossible to become sinless.
Now of course, having fully prostrated myself in submission to Christ, I am so ever thankful I was wrong about all that! To be filled with the Holy Spirit of Christ is such a new Life, and new awakening, a new beginning, a "new creature" walking in the Spirit of Christ, not being affected by the fiery darts of the wicked sinners who continue fighting against righteousness... How to describe eh? Quite an incredible difference. Prior, to Christ in me, I had no comprehension of being made sinless as scriptures spoke of. I only knew of being forgiven. Not feeling dead to the desire to sin. This is incredible. I have no desire whatsoever to sin commit adultery or steal or lie etc. Those things are repulsive to me as repulsive to the One Alive in me, Jesus Christ Himself. That is what I "feel", is how Christ Loves and feels about things. Sin is disgusting. Righteouness is more attractive than gravity! I have no desire to anything or anyone than those of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. So I also share this Gospel with others, it is such a joy to watch men liberated from sin! In the same world, the enemy tears down this gospel message, O what a war it is! But Michael and His Angels overcome the devil and his angels. So I continue to rebuke them here. It is what Saints do :)
Blessings Epi Axe Johnny Dragon Prentis. You are men of God speaking by His Spirit and I am here to encourage you in your righteousness, and I am here to bring judgement upon the devil who hates your message. It is what I do :) And he is very unhappy about it, and that is just fine. For it is here that those who read can see in black and white and chose good or chose evil. Righteousness or sin?

I chose Righteousness of Christ Jesus in me along with my brethren!

Peace,
Whitestone

 

[Episkopos]

Amen! God bless you Epi.

How long ago was it for you!!!

 

[mark s]

Men like arnie or Mark or Haz teach differently... that no matter what, their 'god' can NOT enter into their bodies and do ANYTHING! They say you are going to continue to sin, that the Holy Spirit is IMPOTENT to do ANYTHING of a change in your life. That you will continue to sin!

Hi Whitestone,

So far, you are the only one I've seen to declare absolute sinlessness, therefore, by your words, you are the only Christian posting here.

Yet you claim as brothers those who admittedly sin. Do you see the contradiction? You do this based on their doctrine. So while you say that the matter is sinlessness that shows others are Christians, in reality, you accept as brothers those who share your doctrine, even though they acknowledge committing sins.

And what I've quoted from you above. This is a falsehood. I have never stated, nor do I believe, that God does not enter into us. And in fact I've said the opposite. And I have never stated, nor do I believe, that the Holy Spirit is impotent to do anything of a change in our lives.

I have not said these things, and yet you state that I have. Again, this is a falsehood, and a misrepresentation of my assertions.

So what does this show? What do you call it when someone tells you something they have fabricated?

Love in Christ,
Mark

I haven't yet seen any replies to this:

Have you sinned after being born again? Does that sin somehow disqualify you from salvation? Here is what the Bible says:

1 John 3:2 ESV

"Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is."

If you have been born again, then you WILL be like him when you see him. And everyone will see him.

Need another?

Colossians 3:1-4 ESV

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Simple as that!

Did I miss something? Or are you all just steering clear of this one?

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Whitestone,

So far, you are the only one I've seen to declare absolute sinlessness, therefore, by your words, you are the only Christian posting here.

Yet you claim as brothers those who admittedly sin. Do you see the contradiction? You do this based on their doctrine. So while you say that the matter is sinlessness that shows others are Christians, in reality, you accept as brothers those who share your doctrine, even though they acknowledge committing sins.

And what I've quoted from you above. This is a falsehood. I have never stated, nor do I believe, that God does not enter into us. And in fact I've said the opposite. And I have never stated, nor do I believe, that the Holy Spirit is impotent to do anything of a change in our lives.

I have not said these things, and yet you state that I have. Again, this is a falsehood, and a misrepresentation of my assertions.

So what does this show? What do you call it when someone tells you something they have fabricated?

Love in Christ,
Mark

Why is it so hard to see that a brother be ahead of you? Love believes all things (are possible). You could be biting the very hand that seeks to pull you out of the mud. But we must first place our mudness on the altar of God. Whitestone has professed he walked many years in the mud...but God Himself pulled Him out WHEN HE WAS READY! Whitestone got so sick of sin that God can now keep Him in a place of abiding in Him. Unless a person sees himself as the center of the universe how can one condemn a brother for being closer to Christ than we ourselves. Is that not the old rebellious competitive nature at work. Are we not carnal to compare ourselves with ourselves...condemning all those who are either behind us OR ahead of us?

It is like the angry driver who claims all those who drive slower than him are in the way and all those who drive faster than him a re crazy. Human reasoning all the way!!

Rather let us be exhorted to cry out to the Lord...as David said,

I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
Psa 40:2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
Psa 40:3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
Psa 40:4 Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
Psa 40:5 Many, O LORD my God, are thy wonderful works which thou hast done, and thy thoughts which are to us-ward: they cannot be reckoned up in order unto thee: if I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered.
Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
Psa 40:9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
Psa 40:10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
Psa 40:11 Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me.

 

[mark s]

Why is it so hard to see that a brother be ahead of you? Love believes all things (are possible). You could be biting the very hand that seeks to pull you out of the mud. But we must first place our mudness on the altar of God. Whitestone has professed he walked many years in the mud...but God Himself pulled Him out WHEN HE WAS READY! Whitestone got so sick of sin that God can now keep Him in a place of abiding in Him. Unless a person sees himself as the center of the universe how can one condemn a brother for being closer to Christ than we ourselves. Is that not the old rebellious competitive nature at work. Are we not carnal to compare ourselves with ourselves...condemning all those who are either behind us OR ahead of us?

It is like the angry driver who claims all those who drive slower than him are in the way and all those who drive faster than him a re crazy. Human reasoning all the way!!

Rather let us be exhorted to cry out to the Lord...as David said,

I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
Psa 40:2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
Psa 40:3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD.
Psa 40:4 Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
Psa 40:5 Many, O LORD my God, are thy wonderful works which thou hast done, and thy thoughts which are to us-ward: they cannot be reckoned up in order unto thee: if I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered.
Psa 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
Psa 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.
Psa 40:9 I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, thou knowest.
Psa 40:10 I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
Psa 40:11 Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me.

Hi Epi,

That's not the point. What he teaches is not Scriptural. His actions deny his words. And the net result is that he is preaching condemnation to God's children. He condemns those whom God does not condemn.

Do you think that I oppose this so strongly for the sake of winning a debate? Or to feel some sense of superiority? To tear someone down?

I oppose this as strongly as Paul did, lest those who be weak in their faith come to believe his condemnation, and not enjoy the forgiveness of our Lord Jesus Christ. And in fact, according to the Bible, it is God's grace that trains us to deny worldliness and ungodliness.

Friend, by Whitestone's words, you are not even a Christian! As you've admitted to sin, this means, according to his words, the Holy Spirit does not live in you, and you are a lost sinner. Is that not what he teaches??

What does the Bible teach as how we know who are the Christians?

Our Unity, and our Love for each other. Not our "perfect obedience", may we all achieve that regardless! But that is not the proof of our sonship. It is our love.

In Christ,
Mark

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So we have an experience with God and are cleansed from all sin!!!! Hooray!!

Hi Epi,

What does this mean exactly, "have an experience with God". This is not Scriptural terminology, what does this mean when you say it?

Are you talking about being born again?

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Epi,

That's not the point. What he teaches is not Scriptural. His actions deny his words. And the net result is that he is preaching condemnation to God's children. He condemns those whom God does not condemn.

Do you think that I oppose this so strongly for the sake of winning a debate? Or to feel some sense of superiority? To tear someone down?

I oppose this as strongly as Paul did, lest those who be weak in their faith come to believe his condemnation, and not enjoy the forgiveness of our Lord Jesus Christ. And in fact, according to the Bible, it is God's grace that trains us to deny worldliness and ungodliness.

Friend, by Whitestone's words, you are not even a Christian! As you've admitted to sin, this means, according to his words, the Holy Spirit does not live in you, and you are a lost sinner. Is that not what he teaches??

What does the Bible teach as how we know who are the Christians?

Our Unity, and our Love for each other. Not our "perfect obedience", may we all achieve that regardless! But that is not the proof of our sonship. It is our love.

In Christ,
Mark

You are missing the upward calling that Whitestone is making. He is standing in the truth and declaring the spiritual reality of where Jesus actually is. I understand that it is hard to take.

There are quite a few here who agree with the sinless walk...it is biblical. The bible states no other walk in Christ. Walking in sin is not walking in Christ.

Now it is possible to love Jesus and still not walk IN Christ. It is possible to read the bible all day and pray and even have your prayers answered very sovereignly yet still not walk IN Christ.

To walk as Jesus walked requires a 100% surrender of our lives. Very few of us we ever experience 100% of anything. We don't even know how to give all. God makes us able to do it.

So we should not limit God. That was the sin of those who perished in the wilderness. I appeal to you to consider this.

Peace

 

[mark s]

You are missing the upward calling that Whitestone is making. He is standing in the truth and declaring the spiritual reality of where Jesus actually is. I understand that it is hard to take.

There are quite a few here who agree with the sinless walk...it is biblical. The bible states no other walk in Christ. Walking in sin is not walking in Christ.

Now it is possible to love Jesus and still not walk IN Christ. It is possible to read the bible all day and pray and even have your prayers answered very sovereignly yet still not walk IN Christ.

To walk as Jesus walked requires a 100% surrender of our lives. Very few of us we ever experience 100% of anything. We don't even know how to give all. God makes us able to do it.

So we should not limit God. That was the sin of those who perished in the wilderness. I appeal to you to consider this.

Peace

Will you not respond directly to anything I've said? That Whitestone's teaching declares you UnChristian? That even though you agree with a sinless walk, unless that is what you do from now to the end of your life, you are a lost sinner? Christ does not live in you?

Do you not have anything to say to this?

Will no one respond to the Scriptures I've posted several times now?

Have you sinned after being born again? Does that sin somehow disqualify you from salvation? Here is what the Bible says:

1 John 3:2 ESV

"Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is."

If you have been born again, then you WILL be like him when you see him. And everyone will see him.

Need another?

Colossians 3:1-4 ESV

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Simple as that!

Epi, Is Whitestone the leader of your group?

 

[Episkopos]

Will you not respond directly to anything I've said? That Whitestone's teaching declares you UnChristian? That even though you agree with a sinless walk, unless that is what you do from now to the end of your life, you are a lost sinner? Christ does not live in you?

Do you not have anything to say to this?

Will no one respond to the Scriptures I've posted several times now?



Epi, Is Whitestone the leader of your group?

You know him as much as I do!!! :)

I don't think Whitestone only sees himself alone as a Christian here. Ask him yourself!!! He says he walks in the fulness of the Spirit through grace. I know what that is. I pray that he remain there. I am going back there myself...after some conditioning from God. We are God's servants. He trains us according to the task we are to achieve. The smaller the task the smaller the training. So we can't judge another brother who has not yet attained to what we have. Besides that brother who has not yet attained may have a bigger vessel to fill...more things to surrender to...greater opposition...etc

What is NOT Christian is to disbelieve. One who has attained can help us by encouraging us to persevere. One who has attained will silence those who seek to interrupt the process that would impede others from attaining.

The Christian walk has a goal...to get to the point where we remain always in the presence of God. I have walked that way for a year and half straight at one point...but the battle is very intense and at one point I thought I'd made it...pride slowly crept in...and BOOM..I was out.

So we are all learning to walk in that perfect place of being constantly filled with the Spirit.

These threads show people at various levels of maturity and experience. We can learn from others.

 

[mark s]

You know him as much as I do!!! :)

I don't think Whitestone only sees himself alone as a Christian here. Ask him yourself!!!

He has already given his view. And it is that if you commit sins, you are not a Christian, you do not have God's Spirit in you, and you are condemned.

I have not seen anyone here except him declare themself to be sinless. And even Paul the Apostle recognized that he was not a fit judge of himself.

And it is hardly unChristian to disbelieve when someone's teaching are not only contrary to Scripture, but inconsistent as well.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[HammerStone]

Meh, the whole Paul argument is one that requires building on one supposition after another. Paul was converted sometime in the AD 30s - his letters date that to about AD 31-36 in most accounts I've seen. Romans was written sometimes in the 50s, so you're saying that effectively Paul was still searching for baptism of the Holy Spirit some 20 years into his ministry. On top of this, he had been functioning as a major apostle for that time and was busy writing what would become the New Testament. With some of the assertions here, Paul would be quite unChristian.

Paul says in I Corinthians 12:13 (written again during the AD 50s):

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

Past tense. So you're either going to have to fall back to on again, off again Holy Spirit santification thing - which is quite problematic given that Paul refers to a singular Spirit baptism - or you fall to the truth that I Corinthians was written prior to Romans, so Paul could not be struggling with what he had already experienced.

This is out-and-out heresy.

 

[Episkopos]

He has already given his view. And it is that if you commit sins, you are not a Christian, you do not have God's Spirit in you, and you are condemned.

I have not seen anyone here except him declare themself to be sinless. And even Paul the Apostle recognized that he was not a fit judge of himself.

And it is hardly unChristian to disbelieve when someone's teaching are not only contrary to Scripture, but inconsistent as well.

Love in Christ,
Mark

You have a right to discern as you wish. But purity through the Spirit is what scriptures teach..not impurity.

Don't confuse purity with maturity. No one is saying that one must be mature as Jesus in order to be as pure as Jesus. One can be a new Christian and be totally pure....at least for awhile. The maturity is shown in the character of the one abiding in Christ.

Whitestone, as far as I know, has not claimed to be at the full stature of Christ in maturity. He claims to be in the purity of a close walk with the Lord. The fact that he has remained there so long is what he rejoices in.

What i and others say is that we are not at the 100% level and that constant proximity to Christ.

You say you don't even believe it is possible! THAT is what makes Whitestone doubt your experience with Christ. If you have not walked for any length of time without sin...then how can you have actually encountered Him? That is the idea.

Hi Epi,

What does this mean exactly, "have an experience with God". This is not Scriptural terminology, what does this mean when you say it?

Are you talking about being born again?

Love in Christ,
Mark

..I was not laying out a biblical doctrine...I was trying to point out what people go away half-cocked about.

 

[Webers_Home]

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I have not seen anyone here except him declare themself to be sinless

I have declared my born-again self sinless twice on this thread: once in
post #20 and again in post #39. Here now, for your convenience, is a third.

†. 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed
remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Cliff
/

 

[Episkopos]

.


I have declared my born-again self sinless twice on this thread: once in
post #20 and again in post #39. Here now, for your convenience, is a third.

†. 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed
remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Cliff
/

Haz claims to be sinless too but that is because he has manouvered himself behind the blood of Jesus so that when God looks at him he only sees the blood. It is justified as in JUST AS IF I'D never sinned! :)

Kidron claims to not sin either because he says the law that would condemn him has been abolished.

Hi haz



I am not back to how I was as a believer but not saved from sin as I am able to not sin whereas before, there was something inside me that could not live in complete obedience even though I desired to. I struggled with my flesh at that time and had a problem with anger which I could barely control at times. Now that the power of sin has been broken there is no sin I struggle with but I feel a heaviness and lack of power to enable me to walk joyfully. So I am not conscious of any sins but neither am I conscious of purity as I was before. I dont fully understand it and long to be back to what I was. Actually I tested one thing that I had when I walked in the light abd that was authority over creation just like Adam had and which Wesley looked for in the ES`ed. It worked. In the past I have ordered the rain to cease and a bees nest to empty (it was empty within 10 minutes, one outside of my window). Oh and I am not complaining about sinners as I was the worst. I am merely witnessing to a better way.

Wow Epi that`s amazing! How long since you were in that state?

Reading this again it is remarkable how close we are in testimony...I also walked in a light...a shimmering light that came out of the sides of my eyes. I also sensed a presence shining from the right. I assume it was an angel.

I too am waiting for "enough water to flush the toilet" so to speak.