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Hi Groundzero,
Where the gospel is preached, the existence of polygamy causes all sorts of difficulties for new converts. I'm not sure what the advice is, but I think the men are encouraged to keep the first wife, and let the others go, so that they can be the only wife of one husband. But you can see, I hope, that the matter of inheritance is greatly altered by a man who has several wives and say, twenty children, when compared to a man who has one wife... because even if he also has twenty children, there is a clear first and last, and only two parents for them to take care of.
The Bible does not classify abortion as murder. We derive that position from the things the Bible does say. Surely if aborting a baby was "murder" the Bible would say so, wouldn't it?
There are countless acts that are sin that are not specifically mentioned in the Bible. Pride is a sin. When the Bible says "...a man will leave his father and his mother and be joined to his wife" and when it says "...and the two will become one flesh" what is it saying? Is there a clear model for marriage that God instituted? What plan of marriage conforms most closely with God's ideal? In Ephesians 5:22-23 Paul writes of the relationship between husbands and wives. Notice that he speaks of singular husband and singular wife.
I think it's pretty clear what God consideres the correct model for marriage. When we believe we know better than He does, is that not a sin of pride? Am I free to do anything at all that I wish to do as long as there is no explicit "don't do this specific thing" in the Bible? There are millions of example. Everybody seems to believe that viewing pornography is a sin. That is not mentioned in the Bible. Yes, looking on a woman with lust is said to be sin. But looking at a television screen or movie screen or computer screen? That's not a woman, that's a moving set of pixels. See what I mean? We have to use what scripture teaches to apply to every situation in life to come to the right decision. Polygamy is very much in that category. I can't imagine telling anyone, go ahead, take as many wives as you like, God's okay with that. I simply don't believe that.
The mormans practise polygamy and im sure their divorce rate is much lower than the rest of the country.
"What did He do " ..... Jesus had zero wives .... "what did he teach" .... I am not sure (regarding one or more wives) .... do you know ? thanks.
The Mormons do not practice polygamy. Their church outlawed it in the 1800's. There are break-away splinter groups that do practice polygamy, but they are considered heretical by the official Mormon church.
I don't understand saying "I don't believe polygamy was God's original idea" and "there is nothing wrong with it" in the same sentence. Let me ask this last question. Can you point to a single case in the Bible where polygamy led a person to a closer relationship with God, or where it enhanced any man's life for the better, or even where it did not result in a negative consequence? Lamech is the first known polygamist in the Bible. How did things turn out for him? Abraham, Jacob, David, and Solomon all had multiple wives. Were any of their lives enhanced by polygamy? Abraham had a terrible time with it. It caused David to commit murder. Solomon was drawn away from God by it. These are horrible outcomes. There is no case in the Bible where polygamy is presented in a positive light. God tells us the story of men, what they did, and the consequences of their actions. Why does He give us these stories? To learn perhaps? Just because the Bible records polygamous relationships does not mean that God approves of such things
In 1 Timothy 3:2 and 12 and Titus 1:6, we are told that leaders of the church must be the “husband of one wife.” Why? In the OT, kings were not to have multiple wives. Why? the Bible makes it clear that God intends marriage to be between one man and one woman as it was “from the beginning” (Matthew 19:8; Mark 10:6). It is clear to me anyway that polygamy stands in opposition to God’s plan for His creation. That's enough to make is a sin to me.
I have given numerous examples of things we consider sin but which are not explicitly taught as sin in the Bible. But let me focus on just one of them, abortion. That is because you expressed a belief that abortion is obviously murder and therefore sin. However, nowhere in the bible does it say that for a woman to remove a fetus from her womb is a sin. Killing another person is not said to be sin. Self-defense, war, etc. were all acceptable circumstances for taking the life of another. Justifiable killing is all through the OT. So there is only certain killings that are murder, not all. So where does it say that taking the life of a fetus is the wrong kind of killing? That is not explicitly stated anywhere in Scriptures. It is a position one has to derive from the other things that are explicitly stated. What we do is take a body of Scriptures, analyze the lesson they are teaching us, and them come to a conclusion as to whether something is right are wrong. There are many things that exist in our modern world that did not even exist during the times when the Bible was written. Yet we find Scriptural guidance nevertheless. Is it a sin to get information from by brother-in-law about his company and then buy their stock before the big merger? Well, that's a violation of our securities laws, isn't it? Is it a sin? Why or why not? Nothing in the Bible says anything about insider trading of stocks. Most Christians would call it sin because it is a violation of the law. Well, polygamy is also against the law. But there are many more scriptural principles that can be applied to it than that.
What does the Bible teach about use of tobacco? Yes, we use the "temple of the Holy Spirit" to make a convincing case that smoking tobacco is wrong, but the Bible doesn't actually say it is wrong. Is it wrong for adults to go skinny dipping together? That's not in the Bible. The Bible speaks against drunkenness, but what about the use of stimulants like cocaine? Is that okay since it doesn't make a person drunk (drunkenness is a state of central nervous system depression/suppression) but cocaine actually makes a person hyper-awake? There are so many things the Bible does not name specifically, but indicates are wrong by the fullness of what it does teach. It is not a checklist. There is no checklist. And God's model for marriage is abundantly clear from what is stated about it. The three do not become one flesh.
Really can't believe that you will still pick at abortion? Seriously? Is a baby a human being or not? Can it defend itself at all? Did it even get a chance? What the heck!? How do we know abortion is the wrong kind of killing?! Are you kidding me? No, it ain't killing, it's just a blob, in fact, it doesn't actually become a human being till it's about 1 year old!? Yeah right! If there's any crime more heinous, I would think it's the murder of those who cannot speak or do anything for themself yet. If that doesn't fit your definition of murder, I would hate to think what will.
Polygamy has been around since Abraham's time! And God NEVER mentioned anything negative about it, in fact he used it himself as an illustration! What do you say to that? Or is that an unanswerable difficulty?
Well, let me ask a question. What makes something a sin? Is every possible sin explicitly defined in the Bible? We know that idolitry is a sin, but is every possible circumstance that constitutes idolitry explained in the Bible? Some branches of theology argue that all sin, when you get right down to it, has its roots in idolitry. It is rebellion against God's will. If acting against God's will is sin, then the question becomes whether it is God's will for a man to take more than one wife. Remember, God allows sin but He is not the author of sin.
Some say that sin means to miss the mark of God's standard of righteousness. It is not necessarily a proposition of what ever we can get away with, but a question of what God's standard is. Just because sinful men living under the law had multiple wives does not make that God's standard. Just because multiple wives was not addressed in the ten commandments doesn't make it God's will to have multiple wives.
So I guess the question really hinges on the definition of "sin".
If God was going to point out a simple error of not reading the law before acting, don't you think he would've let David know about his sin in polygamy? God didn't because polygamy is NOT sin in God's eyes and neither should it be in ours.
Hi Pelaides,
That's interesting about Kasdeja. I've not read the Book of Enoch yet, but I understand it has some merit.
Hi Brother James,
I've really appreciated your thoughtful posts and how much you've thought about what is and is not in scripture. Very edifying.
Hi Groundzero,
In an earier post, I showed how polygamy is covered in the law. What I didn't even vaguely suggest (and am not now, either) is that this was God's idea of a great relationship. The fact is, that despite circumcision, some men wanted more than one wife. I don't understand it personally, and if you read about the pain that Leah went through with it, or, if you ever come to understand the differences between men and women, and how a woman needs the same man to love her, just as he needs his wife's respect, you'll realise polygamy is a solution to human relationships which goes way against what God in Christ has modeled for us.
Aholah and Aholibah as examples are necessitated because of the split kingdom. The meanings of the two words - His tabernacle, and, His tabernacle in her (the latter with regard to Jerusalem), show God is still talking about being in close and exclusive relationship with His people under one banner. He wants them to set aside all other loves for Him alone. One of the earliest names He gives Himself in scripture is Jealous. Exo 34:14. I hope you see this from reading Jeremiah closely, and that the general call of God is to the whole house of Israel, (not Judah only - whom I don't think He ever describes as His wife - nor, Israel (the ten tribes) only, Samaria).
So, in the New Covenant, it is even more exclusive, because now, the picture is of the Father seeking a bride for His Son, as Abraham sent the servant to find a bride for his son. Eleazar came back with only one woman for the task, and this is the picture which is brought out again in Revelation - that the bride, singular, has made herself ready.
All the polygamy in between, before victory over sin had been obtained for us, cannot be justified since the cross. Jesus made it very plain that man was to have eyes only for his own one wife. To look on another woman and lust after her, now constitutes adultery.
Clearly, polygamy was a stop-gap, when the power of sin was still untamed in men (and women). Moses allowed divorce 'for any cause', rather than the strict stipulations of the law as received at Sinai, to prevent women being beaten up or killed (I have read... It was a humane solution to the fecklessness of the men they had married, who wanted to change wives on a whim - although it was expected that a woman who had been put out of a marriage would remarry.) This is another reason Jesus spoke precisely to the matter of infidelity as the only legitimate cause for divorce.
Do you see, that if it didn't matter to God how many wives a man had, he could never be accused of infidelity to the first one?
You set the rules yourself when you said that the only sins you would recognize are those explicitly stated in the Bible.
You call my arguments "faltering" and yet they represent the views of the vast majority of the people on earth. Most countries have even placed it in their laws. When all of society disagrees with the position you are arguing, how is it that my arguments are faltering? Your posts to me are becoming more and more emotional, and borderline insulting, so I'll break it off and let you and others have the last words.
All the polygamy in between, before victory over sin had been obtained for us, cannot be justified since the cross. Jesus made it very plain that man was to have eyes only for his own one wife. To look on another woman and lust after her, now constitutes adultery.
Clearly, polygamy was a stop-gap, when the power of sin was still untamed in men (and women). Moses allowed divorce 'for any cause', rather than the strict stipulations of the law as received at Sinai, to prevent women being beaten up or killed (I have read... It was a humane solution to the fecklessness of the men they had married, who wanted to change wives on a whim - although it was expected that a woman who had been put out of a marriage would remarry.) This is another reason Jesus spoke precisely to the matter of infidelity as the only legitimate cause for divorce.
Do you see, that if it didn't matter to God how many wives a man had, he could never be accused of infidelity to the first one?
Hi Groundzero,
In regards to your last post, sin for one person may not be a sin for another. If I am convicted to not smoke, if I do, it is a sin for me.
God created Adam and Eve, two should become one flesh.
On the other hand, the 12 heads of the 12 tribes came from a polygamous marriage.
Sorry if this has already been addressed, I haven't read all the posts.
Doesn't it strike you as odd that while Jesus corrected the divorce practices of his day, he never addressed polygamy?
Isa 4:1 ¶ And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
Isa 4:2 ¶ In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth [shall be] excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
Kind of speaks for itself, doesn't it?