Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless? - Depends on your view of Logos.
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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You have this split personality where you flip flop between the two dominate characteristic of both Heckle and Jeckle at the same time.
A failed attempt at humor on my part. Too bad we can't get along.
You'll have to own your half of the blame on that. It takes two to tango.
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What is your problem? It says "the Logos was God". That was before the preincarnate Jesus became flesh.
And it is not that Christ was the Logos. Rather it is that the Logos was the preincarnate Christ who became the incarnate Christ.
Most Christians I know don't have a problem with it. It is well accepted as written.
No just stating the obvious from what you post. And I do not tango or do the sidestep like you do.
You do everything by yourself so well that you need no help from me too, since you present your unscriptural misunderstanding so determinedly as if you are the only one who sees what your spirit sees.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
post 86
When you say "preincarnate Jesus became flesh", I do/don't agree, depending on just what that vocabulary means to you. If you would have said "preincarnate LOGOS" I would agree. But preincarnate Christ" depends on if you're still talking the LOGOS...or the "spirit of Christ".
Question; what spirit 'do you believe' was in Jesus when He was born into that body of flesh which the LOGOS had become in the womb?
RSV ECC 11:5 As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.
post 88
Are you sure? I don't think 'most Christians' even know what you just said.
When you say "preincarnate Jesus became flesh", I do/don't agree, depending on just what that vocabulary means to you. If you would have said "preincarnate LOGOS" I would agree. But preincarnate Christ" depends on if you're still talking the LOGOS...or the "spirit of Christ".
Question; what spirit 'do you believe' was in Jesus when He was born into that body of flesh which the LOGOS had become in the womb?
RSV ECC 11:5 As you do not know how the spirit comes to the bones in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know the work of God who makes everything.
Exactly.
Well said. There was no Christ before the Logos became flesh.
Although I suppose that is debatable, just not rational.
Since "He was before all things", who is the "he"? Is the Logos a "he"?
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
Since λόγος in Greek is a masculine noun, its pronoun has to be masculine. The חָכְמָה (chochmah, "wisdom") in Proverbs 8 is a Hebrew feminine noun, requiring a feminine pronoun, "she". An accident of language development, or something more?
See what we English-speakers miss by not assigning genders to all nouns? That used to drive me nuts in German class.
Very informative, thanks. Good point.
But does a masculine word assign maleness, like human maleness gender? A male person.
What I am asking, I suppose, is whether the Logos was a person.
John Chapter one says the Logos was with God, and was God.
So, it seems that the Logos was the pre-incarnate Son. However that works.
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I didn't say most Christians; rather, I said most Christians I know. I stand by what I said.
You asked, " what spirit 'do you believe' was in Jesus when He was born into that body of flesh which the LOGOS had become in the womb?"
God is Spirit. And that is God, the Father; God the "Son"; and God the Holy Spirit. The preincarnate Son was Spirit. I personally believe that is the same Spirit that existed before, during and after Jesus' time as a human being here on the earth. Hebrews 2:14 says, "Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things...." That is a description of (the preincarnate) Jesus taking on the human being characteristics of flesh and blood. Whereas each and every human has a body of flesh and blood and a spirit formed in him by God (Zech 12:1; Eccl 11:5; 12:7), the spirit of the human, Jesus, had a body of flesh and blood by the virgin birth through His mother Mary and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Spirit was not formed in Him by God when He was born. Rather the Spirit of the human Jesus was the Spirit that he had before taking on the body of flesh and blood. It was in Jesus' prayer (John 17:5) where He asked the Father to, "glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed." Clearly that glory was as the Spirit, John referred to as the Logos who, in the beginning, was "with God and was God"( John 1:1).
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
I always wondered why "garage" in German was feminine. When I was growing up, the garage was a man-cave.
Proverbs 8:22-31 certainly personifies "Wisdom", which I understand in Jewish thought is similar to the Greek concept of "Logos", that which (who?) provides order to creation. Similarly, the Greek in John 1:1 "the Logos was God" strongly implies that everything God is, the Logos is (my Greek textbook makes a special point about this), and we believe God is a Person and not some impersonal force, so ...
But don't ask me to define the mystery of "Personhood".
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If you and I were having coffee in person, I think I could explain that. (Ahem) - LOL
Perhaps the Logos is an ASPECT of God, rather than a separate entity?
The Son was manifest in the Advent. And perhaps the Spirit at the conception.
Thinking out loud here. I may have strayed into heresy here at some point.
But like the poor, heretics will always be with us.
And the church continues to burn mindful non-compliant believers.
Speeding them on their way to hell.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The word "logos" doesn't refer to a person. It has several different meanings based on the context. The two main ideas are "computation" and "reckoning". It comes from the root word "legw" (pronounced "laygo"), which connotes "counting," as in counting sheep, then recounting an event, then to making a rational argument.
From the root word "legw" we have "logos", which is the product of the accounting or the rational argument: "a hearing" , "a promise", "a plan", "a script" , "a word (as in message)." Logos is not a single word by itself; Logos is a collection of words meant to convey a message, a rational argument, a promise, an organized plan, a script and the like.
If John were describing the construction of a house, he might have said something like, "In the beginning was the house plan (logos) and eventually the house plan became an actual house."
The idea is that something once an abstract concept eventually became a reality.
For instance, God promised Israel to live and walk among his people, sitting on David's throne and to "tabernacle" among his people. Now, suppose John was focused on that promise -- that particular "logos" he might write,
In the beginning was the [promise] and the promise was totally in God's hands, and the promise was God. All things came into being through him (God) and apart from him nothing came into being that has come into being. etc. . . . And the promise became flesh and dwelt among us.
In other words, Jesus fulfills God's promise (logos) to walk among his people. God promised to tabernacle among his people, and Jesus is the one who fulfilled that promise.
The term "logos" doesn't refer to a pre-incarnate being; it refers to a pre-incarnate, promise, plan, script, which God revealed to Israel through the prophets, and became realized through Jesus.
Zachariah.
Active Member
Ok for starters, God is not the Logos rather the Logos is an emination of God. This is why the Gnostics call the Hebrew Bible God the Demiurgus because the Hebrew Bible refers to God as the Logos. Which it is not.
The un-comprehencable perfection of God has no "reason" to do anything as he is totally and completely whole. He is singular, One. There is no movement as there is nothing to move to and from. That also means there is no time because time is based off movement. There is also no ignorance for there is nothing to be ignorant of.
Movement, time, reason, ignorance, duality, creation are all born under the nature of Two. Two is the Logos. The reason Two is designated to the Logos is because the Logos is split Into two parts. Deductive reasoning which is the Genesis of the corporeal realm depicted in the beggining of the bible.(time, movement, creation etc). Inductive reasoning which is the Genesis of the incorpereal realm depicted in the story of Noah. Inductive reasoning is the polaric opposite of deductive reasoning. If deductive reasoning holds the essence of time then Inductive reasoning is eternal.
100% these concepts are meaningful. Not many people understand them this is why the Church is so full of Dogma. It also doesn't help that other philosophies are frowned apon. The best way to get a full understanding of the Logo's is to research Greek pythagorian numbers. After all it is the helenistic jews that inherited the idea from the Greeks.
Zachariah.
Active Member
Here is a great example of the Logos depicted in scripture as an allegory. Only a true initiate will see the veracity of what's being tought.
"He is ready to separate the chaff from the wheat with his winnowing fork. Then he will clean up the threshing area, gathering the wheat into his barn but burning the chaff with never-ending fire.” - Matt 3:13
Separating the chaff from the wheat and throwing it into the never ending fire (deductive reasoning).
Gathering the wheat into his barn (inductive reasoning).
"He is ready to separate the chaff from the wheat with his winnowing fork. Then he will clean up the threshing area, gathering the wheat into his barn but burning the chaff with never-ending fire.” - Matt 3:13
Separating the chaff from the wheat and throwing it into the never ending fire (deductive reasoning).
Gathering the wheat into his barn (inductive reasoning).
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