Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless? - Depends on your view of Logos.
- Thread starter St. SteVen
- Start date
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Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I can identify, except that it really depends on if, by nature, you like philosophy. I am one who did, although my philosophy professor enjoyed producing school after school of thought, only to show its futility in the end.
In my experience, the whole thing was about demonstrating the impossible bridge between human knowledge and things of the infinite, whether you call it "God" or not. It came to be assumed that human reason cannot perceive divine revelation, since a purely subjective thought cannot conceive of anything beyond itself. It is pure conjecture or "wishful thinking."
So morality is viewed as anybody's idea of "good," and creates a kind of "romantic" feeling about the innate goodness of man. All this until a world war takes place, and people look like savage animals, and even worse, justify it. God doesn't appear to ever "show up." And it certainly doesn't honor our requests and petitions!
I personally think this skepticism is due to the common experience of Man after he has *rejected* divine revelation. The idea that the infinite God cannot speak directly to human reason is simply a choice not to comply with it. When we choose to obey His internal revelation about morality and love, the God-experience becomes more real to us.
If God is real and infinite, then what would prevent Him from being able to speak into our finite world and limited reason? Revelation would be His way of condescending to our own worldly limitations, and a reasonable vehicle for communicating with us.
Truth is verified then in our experience. It gains credibility with our limited human reason when we see God and His expression of the infinite in our finite world.
This may be an experience of supernatural love or witnessing a divine miracle. Revelation is, by definition, a finite representation and evidence of what is infinite and real. And a limited "representation" can express the real thing.
Do we really have to experience *all of God* to know that we are really experiencing an infinite God? Can we really experience a single act of God and really know that it was God? I think so.
God does indeed "show up" when we put divine values into our lives and experience their reality. And many of our petitions are answered, when they are inspired by the One who defines what love and unselfishness are. God is an experience, when we are compliant with it, when the thing we experience is defined as "God." And it is God Himself who enables this--not finite human reason!
It is true that finite man cannot reason up to God, apart from God's help. It is God who is infinite, who is able to supply us with a limited experience that we, as finite human beings, can know is God. To know truth we must receive divine revelation, assuming that it is really there to begin with.
St. SteVen said:
I think you have totally missed the point of the Logos.
That might help.
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I think you have totally missed the point of the Logos.
Did you read the OP? (opening post)
That might help.
/
Lambano
Well-Known Member
I'd have to check St. SteVen's child's bedroom to see if Chaos has retaken the territory.
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
I was very interested in what you posted, even the "cover blown" comment, but just couldn't quite push the 'like'. Don't want to mislead people into thinking I'm agreeing with something 'wrong'....like that could ever happen here.Was not expecting this type of response. I thought my cover was already blown....
Your post intrigued me.
I hear your 'opinion' on kenosis and I guess I'm still leaning on my 'opinion'. So push me, why do you think my understanding is wrong?
Agree-ing with the above....but; "emptied himself of his own desires"? Would you say that's as 'pre-incarnate LOGOS'.....or as 'carnate LOGOS'?
'Covers off', the Father and the LOGOS and the Holy Spirit would have all had ONE desire IMO. Do you disagree?
Thank you for your post....too.
Who is in heaven?
What does it mean, "goes to heaven"? Please use Scripture.
If you use Scripture, and believe what it says, you may find all that messiness you see all cleaned up.
Much love!
There is the messiness I was referring to.
- Is there consensus on who is in heaven? If anyone.
- Not sure of any scripture that tells us what "goes to heaven" means,
- I said it was messy. Why should the burden of proof be on me?
Can you demonstrate that "Who goes to heaven?" is not messy?
/
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
Joh 1. does not say;
JOH 1:14 And the WORD and (THE HOLY SPIRIT) was made JESUS, and dwelt among us, .....
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I'm just asking you to clarify your question, and to use Scripture, if, that's what we're talking about. The messiness is what you are bringing into it.
You've asserted that Truth is Messy. OK, I disagree. I find simplicity, and harmony, and sense. Beauty. Not a mess.
You think you've got a "gotcha" question. But it's intentionally oversimplistic. If you look at the Scriptures which speak of us in relation to heaven, you've find your answer in very simple terms. But if you want to just make it look all messy by using these kinds of questions, but not go the the Bible, you can do that.
Much love!
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Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of Himself. This has come to pass through His creation and especially the heavens. It has come through the spoken word of the prophets and through Scripture. Most notably it has come into being through His Son. The logos is the expression of God and is His communication of Himself just as a "word" is an outward expression of a person's thoughts. This outward expression of God has now occurred through His Son and thus it's perfectly understandable why Jesus is called the "Word." Jesus is an outward expression of God's reason, wisdom, purpose and plan. For the same reason we call revelation "a word from God" and the Bible "the Word of God."
If we understand that the logos is God's expression... His plan, purpose, reason and wisdom. Then it is clear they were with Him "in the beginning." Scripture says God's wisdom was "from the beginning" and it was common in Hebrew writing to personify a concept such as wisdom. The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Nobody goes to Heaven.
21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. (Revelation 21:1-3)
Heaven comes down here.(But don't tell anybody. It's a secret.)
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Your position is that the truth isn't messy.
I posed a question that will reveal how messy it is.
"Who goes to heaven?"
You have avoided the question. And the associated mess.
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Good post thanks.
Please note that it is very difficult to read the light blue text.
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Yes. It's messy.
Generations spend their entire lives thinking they are heaven-bound.
Only to discover that we aren't going anywhere.
Seems that Islam has a better plan in this regard.
Available at a Mosque near you.
/
A very curious thing.
I did the math once to find out big the New Jerusalem was. (coming down to earth)
A gigantic cube that would cover much of the USA if it landed there.
Some 2,000 miles in every direction, if memory serves.
The top would actually break through our current atmosphere.
I imagine the new earth would have to be significantly larger to house
such a structure and maintain its balance. It's messy. - LOL
/
Reminds me of what Jesus said,
There is more than enough room in my Father’s home. If this were not so, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?
Hillsage
Well-Known Member
It is sad that the translators can't just seem to translate words consistently; That Greek word is only in the NT 2 times and both are in this chapter.
JOH 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions/MONE: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
JOH 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode/MONE with him.
3438 mone: a staying, i.e. residence (the act or the place): abode, mansion
Again.
You've asked a Biblically based question yet without Scriptural definition, and you refuse to go to the Scriptures to bring clarity to your question. You are intentionally making this "messy" to prove your point.
Totally disengenous.
If you know the truth, the truth will make you free, not messed up.
Maybe the take-away here is, you find your discussions with others about Biblical doctrine to be messy. Truth is not messy.
Much love!
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