Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless? - Depends on your view of Logos.

[St. SteVen]

I want to discuss the Logos as what it means before the Logos became flesh. (and dwelt among us)
In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. (John 1:1)

This tells three things about the Logos.
1) The Logos was from the beginning.
2) The Logos was with God.
3) The Logos was God.

Our knee-jerk thought is to jump to the meaning that Christ was the Logos.
Which is true by extension. But what was the Logos BEFORE the Logos became flesh?

Strong's Greek 3056 3056. logos Strong's Concordance logos: a word (as embodying an idea)

I want to focus on this "as embodying an idea" definition.
The Logos as embodying an idea, the logic, the reason, the meaning.

So, returning to the topic title question: Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless?
Especially as it relates to all of humankind.

Was God's plan (Logos) from the beginning to be meaningful, or meaningless?
Or, more to the point, would the plan be meaningful to all of humankind, or only to a select minority?

Was the plan inclusive, or exclusive? (to the majority)
Can we rate an exclusive plan as good, or evil?

Meaningful = has value
Meaningless = has no value

Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless?

--- ADDENDUM ---

/

 

[marks]

Universalism is unScriptural. And trying to sell us on it by impugning Christ is very poor form in my view.

I want to focus on this "as embodying an idea" definition.

Jesus is "the embodiment of an idea"?

No. He is God come to earth. And men are being tested.

Meaningful = has value
Meaningless = has no value

Value is both intrinsic and perceived. Jesus has intrinsic worth, but do you see that?

Much love!

 

[Godslittleservant]

Following to see where this goes

 

[St. SteVen]

Following to see where this goes

Was God's plan (Logos) from the beginning to be meaningful, or meaningless?
Or, more to the point, would the plan be meaningful to all of humankind, or only to a select minority?

Was the plan inclusive, or exclusive? (to the majority)
Can we rate an exclusive plan as good, or evil?

Meaningful = has value
Meaningless = has no value

Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless?

/

 

[Behold]

Meaningless = has no value

A.) Your Thread.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus is "the embodiment of an idea"?

Why was Jesus the Logos?
What was the Logos before the Logos became flesh?
What does it mean that Jesus was "the embodiment of an idea"?
What is significant about this title?

Beyond that, what was the idea?
The church stops short of identifying it as a good idea. Why?

/

 

[Behold]

What was the Logos before the Logos became flesh?

John 1

 

[marks]

Why was Jesus the Logos?

Why are you you?

I suppose this is one of those kinds of questions we're to avoid.

What does it mean that Jesus was "the embodiment of an idea"?

I certainly have my ideas of what you mean. However, I'm not interested in humanist philosophy, and prefer to discuss Scripture. But feel free to explain what this means to you. I'm hoping you will be succinct.

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

Added to the OP

--- ADDENDUM ---

/

 

[St. SteVen]

Why are you you?

I suppose this is one of those kinds of questions we're to avoid.

Not at all.
Being an individual makes me who I am.

But that wasn't the question I asked about Jesus.
Why was Jesus the Logos?

Was that succinct enough?

/

 

[St. SteVen]

I'm not interested in humanist philosophy, and prefer to discuss Scripture.

Discussing Christianity from a philosophical basis is risky business.
I'm not surprised that any Christian would want to avoid it.

Most are happy with the tidy little package they have.
They don't want to be bothered with real questions.

/

 

[marks]

Being an individual makes me who I am.

That's more of a tautology, wouldn't you say?

Discussing Christianity from a philosophical basis is risky business.

Generally speaking, from what I've seen, it leads you into sophistry. But then, I think that's the point!

Most are happy with the tidy little package they have.

Do you have problems with truth in tidy packages?

But that wasn't the question I asked about Jesus.
Why was Jesus the Logos?

Was that succinct enough?

Why is the sky blue?

Do you think Jesus was selected to be "Logos" from some multiple choice question?

He is God come in flesh to bring us life, and now man is being tested.

Much love!

 

[Behold]

John 1

Pre-Incarnate Christ.... is "the Word made flesh", virgin born.

John 1 says the Word "was God".

 

[St. SteVen]

I'm not interested in humanist philosophy, and prefer to discuss Scripture.

This question was biblical in nature. "What was the Logos before the Logos became flesh?"
Although I suppose you would have to think a bit to answer it. The text doesn't tell us right there.
You would need to figure what the Logos was.

Here were the related questions.

Why was Jesus the Logos?
What was the Logos before the Logos became flesh?
What does it mean that Jesus was "the embodiment of an idea"?
What is significant about this title?
Beyond that, what was the idea?
The church stops short of identifying it as a good idea. Why?

/

 

[marks]

This question was biblical in nature. "What was the Logos before the Logos became flesh?"
Although I suppose you would have to think a bit to answer it. The text doesn't tell us right there.
You would need to figure what the Logos was.

Here were the related questions.

Why was Jesus the Logos?
What was the Logos before the Logos became flesh?
What does it mean that Jesus was "the embodiment of an idea"?
What is significant about this title?
Beyond that, what was the idea?
The church stops short of identifying it as a good idea. Why?

/

The Bible identies the Angel of the LORD, who is YHWH Himself, His Messenger to man.

Jesus was NOT the "embodiment of an idea", He is a Person. He is our Creator God, and He is testing His creation. This is your sophistry in action, reducing our Creator God to "an idea". Bleck!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Was the plan inclusive, or exclusive? (to the majority)
Can we rate an exclusive plan as good, or evil?

Meaningful = has value
Meaningless = has no value

Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless?

Sophistry . . . sounds good, but is false.

Much love!

 

[APAK]

Not at all.
Being an individual makes me who I am.

But that wasn't the question I asked about Jesus.
Why was Jesus the Logos?

Was that succinct enough?

/

Jesus was not the logos (of God) as you describe it. Quite impossible in practical terms and via its grammar and meaning. Unless one wants to be creative or ignorant and bend reality and throw God, Jesus and logos all together, into the sci-fi realm.

The logos (of God) became human or flesh, indeed. Meaning, the logos of God became (took on) a human face. And therefore it (logos -- thoughts, ideas etc.,) was/were expressed as, and through a human being we call Jesus. He was the perfect imagine/epitomy of God and we we saw his glory....

He became the logos of God after his Father's logos was embedded within him....since his birth then much more with power, after his baptism....and today, the image of the logos of God indeed.

 

[Hillsage]

Jesus was not the logos (of God) as you describe it.

Agree. The body/flesh/sarx of Jesus came from the logos of God. But not the spirit of Jesus. It did not come from the logos.

"God is spirit". The father, the word/logos and the Holy Spirit were spirit.

The logos gave up equality with God, as spirit, and became the incarnate Word which had been spirit.

PHI 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form (pre-incarnate spirit) of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form (carnal flesh) of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death (bodily, his spirit went to Father),

Quite impossible in practical terms and via its grammar and meaning. Unless one wants to be creative or ignorant and bend reality and throw God, Jesus and logos all together, into the sci-fi realm.

The logos (of God) became human or flesh, indeed. Meaning, the logos of God became (took on) a human face. And therefore it (logos -- thoughts, ideas etc.,) was/were expressed as, and through a human being we call Jesus. He was the perfect imagine/epitomy of God and we we saw his glory....

He became the logos of God after his Father's logos was embedded within him....since his birth then much more with power, after his baptism....and today, the image of the logos of God indeed.

COL 1:15 Who is the image (bodily) of the invisible God (spirit), the firstborn of every creature:

 

[Randy Kluth]

I want to discuss the Logos as what it means before the Logos became flesh. (and dwelt among us)
In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. (John 1:1)

This tells three things about the Logos.
1) The Logos was from the beginning.
2) The Logos was with God.
3) The Logos was God.

Our knee-jerk thought is to jump to the meaning that Christ was the Logos.
Which is true by extension. But what was the Logos BEFORE the Logos became flesh?

God has in inherent ability to reveal Himself. Nobody can say whether God needs to reveal Himself, though He has created an entire universe in which He can reveal Himself to those who are aware of it, namely men and angels. But God's inherent ability to reveal Himself is grounded in the meaning of Himself as "the Word."

You're right that this predates Christ's appearance as a man, but includes His personality as God. The distinction between God as source of His Word and God as the Word itself remains an eternal distinction, if only because the Word is able to reveal God in different personal expressions.

We know of 3 Persons, and I assume there could be many more, if He wanted to express Himself as such. For example, there have already been many theophanies expressed in the form of angels and men, and there has also been God the Son. All of them have been expressions of God the Word.

And all of them have been God Himself. But if God has other personal expressions besides Himself as the source of His Word, then there must always be a distinction in God between Himself as source and Himself as the Word.

Strong's Greek 3056 3056. logos Strong's Concordance logos: a word (as embodying an idea)

I want to focus on this "as embodying an idea" definition.
The Logos as embodying an idea, the logic, the reason, the meaning.

So, returning to the topic title question: Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless?
Especially as it relates to all of humankind.

Was God's plan (Logos) from the beginning to be meaningful, or meaningless?
Or, more to the point, would the plan be meaningful to all of humankind, or only to a select minority?

Was the plan inclusive, or exclusive? (to the majority)
Can we rate an exclusive plan as good, or evil?

Meaningful = has value
Meaningless = has no value

Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless?

--- ADDENDUM ---

/

The Word expresses things that God created, including expressions of Himself in the form of created Persons. We don't have that power so it is difficult to imagine it. Imagine if you could, at will, create an idea of yourself outside of yourself, with that idea really being you? You would be distinct from that idea created to be you, and yet it would still be you!

Everything God made was either a created expression of His own Person, or it was the creation of things designed to show His artistry, as well as purpose in some grand design. One of the greatest proofs for God is Intelligent Design, which works backwards from the obvious meaning in creation to an Intelligent Designer. Everything has design, and therefore, some purpose. The purpose, regardless, involves God's self-expression aka the Word.

The Bible really explains much about God's ultimate design in Creation. It places Him, as a created human expression of Himself, at the center of earth in the universe to show His authority on earth over the entire universe. Whether He has created other worlds in other parts of the universe, I don't know, and haven't been told.

 

[Behold]

What was the Logos before the Logos became flesh?


/

John 1